Super 8s

Started by theticklemister, February 19, 2017, 10:55:16 PM

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Redhand Santa

I'm undecided over the super 8s format. I do like the idea of the top teams playing against each other in more important games. I also see the argument over it not helping the club fixtures.

Everyone has to agree its extremely difficult to fix the fixtures issues and no matter what the gaa do won't be perfect. In my opinion the biggest issues based on Tyrone currently are:

1) Too much uncertainty over club fixtures. Players have no idea when the next game is because of dependency on when Tyrone progress. Games are also moved if there is replays etc.
2) Players trying to serve club and county at same time. To me this is leading to even further weeks wasted as county manager trying to protect their players ahead of big games which is understandable as their opposition will no doubt do the same.
3) The inter county championship is too drawn out with too many breaks between games in the provincial series.
4) Their is too many warm up games at county leave (pre season then league) and not enough meaningful big games between the top teams.

I've now come to the conclusion that their should be a total split season for county players. The county season should run from February (pre season January) to end of July (other teams will obviously drop out earlier) and during that period the county players play no club games. The club season should start without them in say April and run away with regular fixtures every week. Personally I think if that's the case your league division shouldn't determine the championship you play in. The fact the league is all before the championship should keep players interested.

From February to the end of July there is 26 weekends so there is plenty of time for decent county competitions. I think they need totally revised based on what is there currently. I'd personally start with the provincials and have groupings in each provincial championship like they currently have in pre season tournaments and your position based on those 3 or 4 games would determine whether you enter the senior, intermediate or junior championship after that. The provincial winners could carry points over to the main championship to give greater incentive to win provincial championship. Once completed there would then be a senior championship with 16 teams and the other two with 8. Each team has 7 games. Then quarter finals for senior (or semi finals for the other two). I'd potentially have a route of allowing the junior/intermediate teams a play off to get back in the main championship so everyone still has chance of All Ireland.

For the clubs they'd have started in April with county players coming in start of August or before and being totally free to concentrate on club activities to end of October. All counties have to be finished up by then except for provincial championships.

Jinxy

If you were any use you'd be playing.

Esmarelda

Quote from: Syferus on February 24, 2017, 01:36:20 PM
It's incredible that a proposal opposed by both players' unions, supporters and pretty much any club that has its own best interests at heart has a massive chance of being passed at congress.

A democracy is something the GAA is very far from.
Where do you get this from?

The players' unions point is fair enough but supporters and any club that has its own best interests at heart is, in the first instance an unfounded generalisation, and in the second instance your opinion based on what, I'm not sure.

Are all these groups not members of their clubs where they can go and voice their opposition if it is indeed the case?

Keyser soze

#183
So Roscommon have a round robin and Kildare a back door, any others. I was sure Tyrone and Down had tried round robin in the past....anyone??

Croí na hÉireann

Quote from: Esmarelda on February 24, 2017, 12:30:30 PM
Quote from: Croí na hÉireann on February 24, 2017, 10:59:35 AM
Quote from: Esmarelda on February 24, 2017, 10:21:15 AM
Quote from: Croí na hÉireann on February 24, 2017, 09:47:44 AM
Quote from: Esmarelda on February 23, 2017, 05:12:58 PM
Quote from: Croí na hÉireann on February 23, 2017, 04:59:25 PM
Is a semi final a bigger step than getting a hiding off Mayo or Tyrone in Thurles in a last 8 round robin game? Is that the question?

If it is I think you know the answer.
My point/question is this. You're making it a major deal, for a county's progress, to make a semi-final because it suits your argument.

What I'm saying is that a county might progress just as much in the long term by playing three of these Super 8 games as they would playing in a semi-final. And please don't start with the black & white argument that getting to a SF is better than getting to a QF. I'm aware of that.

But again, look at how you're wording your question; "getting a hiding" of Mayo. Let me flip it around for you. Would it be more beneficial for Tipp to play three games and get a win, a draw and a narrow defeat than get "a hiding" in the AISF?

I don't think getting to the Super 8 every year in 10 is going to help in any way in the long term (the same as getting to a SF one year in 10 tbf). The idea behind the qualifiers when they came in was to give the counties who traditionally only got the one championship game each year a second day out. This was laudable but the downside is that if a stronger county got caught out they got a second bite at the cherry. This super 8 proposal purposely sets out to make the strong counties even stronger as the counties who will benefit most from it are those who will make the last 8 year upon year. We already have huge imbalances from coaching to funding to seeded draws to Dublin having the keys to Croke Park and now HQ are trying to put another road block in front of the smaller counties. Westmeath did their bit for the association last night by agreeing to vote against it, hopefully the remaining counties follow suit.
I'm not sure why you're talking about one year in ten. If Westmeath got to the last eight in 2018 and had a game in Cusack Park against Mayo/Tyrone/Dublin/Kerry, a game against, say, Galway in Croke Park and a game against say Donegal in Breffni Park, do you not think that would promote the game in the county just as much as getting to a semi-final? Who knows how the county would build on that in the coming years. My point is that the Super 8 proposal doesn't seem to be a hugely, if at all, inferior place to be than an AISF.

You talk about the Super 8 making the stronger teams stronger. How? Do you mean by letting them have a potentially third chance? This is another example of where everyone has different complaints about the current system. One of the many areas that Duffy tried to address with this was the complaint that the only teams that didn't get a second chance in the All-Ireland series were the provincial champions. If you read the proposal, you'll see all of the issues that an attempt has been made to address. This is one of them.

Ultimately, on this thread and elsewhere, I think the general view is that those against it are so for factually incorrect reasons or for the reason that it doesn't solve everything.

I believe that's it's not perfect because it's impossible to be so, but that it condenses the season, gives players back to their clubs earlier and should be trialled for three years.

All interested parties can use the intervening period to make suggestions and have discussions for the next exciting episode.

Because that's how often on average the weaker teams make the last 8, check the graph posted earlier. In your example, no, I don't believe those 3 games would promote the game anywhere near as advancing to a stage of the championship we have never reached before. We'll have to agree to disagree, a SF appearance trumps over 3 games at last 8 level for me.

Super 8 will make the stronger teams stronger as they will have 3 tough games at the highest level each year where they can refine their systems, processes and performances. The provincial champions not getting a second chance is a bit of a red herring. Everyone gets one chance to win their provincial championship. They then get another chance to win the AI. Everyone is in the same boat.

The reason people are against it are not that it doesn't solve everything. The reasons people are against it are:


  • It makes the strong stronger
  • The players are against it
  • We are locked into it for the next 3 years
  • The CPA don't get a chance to fix the fixtures (Since no one else will despite their promises)
  • It's designed to make money rather than being for the betterment of the association
  • Hurling will be completely overshadowed while all these Super 8 games are going on
But if you reach the AISF once in ten years is that any use? I don't follow the logic.

I agree we should agree to disagree on the next point.

Would the weaker teams not benefit from playing better teams in a similar way that you say the strong teams will? Again, we hear a lot about how the weaker teams need to be exposed to a better standard. Like I said, the argument are all very conflicting.

The CPA has certainly complicated matters by trying to come to the table so late. I think it's reasonable for them to wait the three years to come up with a better proposal. There's no evidence that hurling will overshadowed. The GPA are against it which is definitely noteworthy, although strange considering the number of elements it's addressed.

Anyway, we'll see what happens. I hope some of it goes through and then at least we can see how it goes.

According to Loughnane in the Star yesterday: "If the changes are agreed, then there will be 19 football Championship games in the months of July and August. But, in those prime months, there will be just five senior hurling matches". There's evidence for you.

And it's certainly not reasonable to punish anyone who plays gaelic games in Ireland just because the CPA came to the table late as you put it. The motions to move back the AI finals and the use of extra time in the case of a draw outside of finals will and should IMO pass at congress. The super 8s could go either way, certainly there's a late push against it, depends if enough delegates can be swayed despite Duffys trips around the country.
Westmeath - Home of the Christy Ring Cup...

Rossfan

Quote from: Keyser soze on February 24, 2017, 03:04:25 PM
So Roscommon have a round robin and Kildare a back door, any others. I was sure Tyrone and Down had tried round robin in the past....anyone??
As far as I know there are group stages in all the Connacht Counties plus Westmeath and East Meath.  Think Longford and Offaly have too.

Croí - the Super 8s should stand or fall on their own merits not be rejected because the hurley crowd only have a few games in their Championship.
In fact this proposal is probably more suited to them than football.
Davy's given us a dream to cling to
We're going to bring home the SAM

Owenmoresider

#186
Quote from: Keyser soze on February 24, 2017, 03:04:25 PM
So Roscommon have a round robin and Kildare a back door, any others. I was sure Tyrone and Down had tried round robin in the past....anyone??
By my reckoning it breaks down thus:
Round Robin* - Sligo, Leitrim, Roscommon, Mayo, Donegal, Cavan, Longford, Westmeath, Meath, Louth, Offaly, Carlow, Wexford, Tipperary (& divisional c'ships), Limerick and Waterford.
Back Door - Galway, Monaghan, Armagh, Down, Kildare, Laois, Wicklow, Clare, Cork, Kerry.
Straight KO - Tyrone, Fermanagh, Derry, Antrim, Dublin.

* - you know where you can shove your "Champions League format" bollocks.

Esmarelda

Croi, who's being punished? Such emotive language.

And Ger Loughnane telling us, rightly or wrongly, how many games there are is not evidence of anything. Unless you want it to be of course.

Sure if we get hammerings and dead rubbers with the Super 8 won't everyone be looking to hurling for a decent bit of entertainment? ;)

Croí na hÉireann

Quote from: Esmarelda on February 24, 2017, 04:52:57 PM
Croi, who's being punished? Such emotive language.

And Ger Loughnane telling us, rightly or wrongly, how many games there are is not evidence of anything. Unless you want it to be of course.

Sure if we get hammerings and dead rubbers with the Super 8 won't everyone be looking to hurling for a decent bit of entertainment? ;)

Players like these are being punished.

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/who-do-the-gaa-top-brass-think-they-are-by-ignoring-players-1.2987799

Super 8s not only do nothing for them but lock them into a format that will punish them for an extra 3 years before the CPA can help to work out a format that suits as many people as possible. At least give them a shot at it. Instead of this elitist nonsense.
Westmeath - Home of the Christy Ring Cup...

AZOffaly

Quote from: Owenmoresider on February 24, 2017, 04:49:44 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on February 24, 2017, 03:04:25 PM
So Roscommon have a round robin and Kildare a back door, any others. I was sure Tyrone and Down had tried round robin in the past....anyone??
By my reckoning it breaks down thus:
Round Robin* - Sligo, Leitrim, Roscommon, Mayo, Donegal, Cavan, Longford, Westmeath, Meath, Louth, Offaly, Carlow, Wexford, Tipperary (& divisional c'ships), Limerick and Waterford.
Back Door - Galway, Monaghan, Armagh, Down, Kildare, Laois, Wicklow, Clare, Cork.
Straight KO - Tyrone, Fermanagh, Derry, Antrim, Dublin, Kerry.

* - you know where you can shove your "Champions League format" bollocks.

I think Kerry have a back door if you lose in the first round.

Esmarelda

Quote from: Croí na hÉireann on February 24, 2017, 05:26:15 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on February 24, 2017, 04:52:57 PM
Croi, who's being punished? Such emotive language.

And Ger Loughnane telling us, rightly or wrongly, how many games there are is not evidence of anything. Unless you want it to be of course.

Sure if we get hammerings and dead rubbers with the Super 8 won't everyone be looking to hurling for a decent bit of entertainment? ;)

Players like these are being punished.

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/who-do-the-gaa-top-brass-think-they-are-by-ignoring-players-1.2987799

Super 8s not only do nothing for them but lock them into a format that will punish them for an extra 3 years before the CPA can help to work out a format that suits as many people as possible. At least give them a shot at it. Instead of this elitist nonsense.
If Duffy had not brought any proposals this year then we'd be waiting until this time next year for a proposal which would mean 2019 at the earliest for the proposal to be brought in. Why haven't the club players done something earlier? Did you read Aaron Kernan's comments about the club player? Moan about everything, do nothing. Even some of the lads coming out against the new proposals are accepting that they themselves are partly to blame.

Had Duffy not brought these proposals I'd have my doubts as to whether the CPA would exist yet. They've existed, what, a couple of months, and things should stand still?

Owenmoresider

Quote from: AZOffaly on February 24, 2017, 06:17:01 PM
Quote from: Owenmoresider on February 24, 2017, 04:49:44 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on February 24, 2017, 03:04:25 PM
So Roscommon have a round robin and Kildare a back door, any others. I was sure Tyrone and Down had tried round robin in the past....anyone??
By my reckoning it breaks down thus:
Round Robin* - Sligo, Leitrim, Roscommon, Mayo, Donegal, Cavan, Longford, Westmeath, Meath, Louth, Offaly, Carlow, Wexford, Tipperary (& divisional c'ships), Limerick and Waterford.
Back Door - Galway, Monaghan, Armagh, Down, Kildare, Laois, Wicklow, Clare, Cork.
Straight KO - Tyrone, Fermanagh, Derry, Antrim, Dublin, Kerry.

* - you know where you can shove your "Champions League format" bollocks.

I think Kerry have a back door if you lose in the first round.
Actually that's correct, thought that had gone last year but evidently not.

criostlinn

If people just keep looking at the negatives in every system we will never change. No system is perfect but at least they are trying something. I say give it a go and see what happens.

All this focus on the weaker counties not getting enough from it. That maybe true, but what are they getting at the moment. The only way to address this is to have a second tier competition and then they get to play teams of equal ability all year. But its my impression they don't want this and it certainly wouldn't have been any good to Tipperary last year.   So what next. Maybe a handicap system. Give Clare a 10 point start against Kerry. The Rossies a 15 point start against Mayo, etc etc. At the end of the day what ever system comes in, it should be about the best team winning.  Supporting weaker counties should be done off the pitch with funding and promotional work. Try ad bring them up to the level of teh stronger teams.  It should not be about handicapping stronger teams to bring everyone down to the same level.

This arguement about this super 8 system only suiting the strong teams. Last year Kerry waltzed into the Semi Final without breaking a sweat. Many (mainly Tymonies) rightly complained. If we had a super 8 system last year they would have been into a group with Ddublin, Donegal and Clare. Would they have made the Semi Final from this. Maybe. But it wouldn't have been as easy.

But above all. This new systems gives the media a greater chance of having 2 Dublin-Kerry love ins every year. One in the Super 8 and another in the All Ireland final. They'll be righting ballads and books for years about the time the Dubs toppled the Kingdom in Killarney. For that alone we cant let this opportunity pass. Vote yes

AZOffaly

What is this new system supposed to deliver though? What exactly I'd it's purpose?

Esmarelda

Quote from: AZOffaly on February 24, 2017, 09:41:30 PM
What is this new system supposed to deliver though? What exactly I'd it's purpose?
AZ, you come across as someone that's read the document. It's all explained in there.