Casement Park in line for major overhaul - 40,000 all seater Stadium.

Started by Joxer, October 06, 2010, 02:42:28 PM

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Ulick

Quote from: Maguire01 on February 18, 2012, 02:00:07 PM
I'd expect there to be a clear rationale behind the planned capacity. Why 40,000? What is this based on?
It doesn't have to be a sell-out every time. But what's the point in building something that will rarely reach capacity? And how many bigger events is there likely to be to subsidise the smaller ones (i.e. just about every Antrim game)?

No idea, but I was thinking Antrim games would be going to Dunsilly or somewhere more suitable to the expected attendance.

Minder

Quote from: Ulick on February 19, 2012, 12:38:01 AM
Quote from: Maguire01 on February 18, 2012, 02:00:07 PM
I'd expect there to be a clear rationale behind the planned capacity. Why 40,000? What is this based on?
It doesn't have to be a sell-out every time. But what's the point in building something that will rarely reach capacity? And how many bigger events is there likely to be to subsidise the smaller ones (i.e. just about every Antrim game)?

No idea, but I was thinking Antrim games would be going to Dunsilly or somewhere more suitable to the expected attendance.

Why would they move about 12 games a season to Dunsilly when they need the smaller attendances to "break even" ?
"When it's too tough for them, it's just right for us"

Ulick

Quote from: Maguire01 on February 18, 2012, 02:05:08 PM
What proportion of those million people are even remotely likely to attend a game at Casement?
You mention Belfast - how many Belfast neutrals pop into games at Casement at the minute? People in Belfast don't even go to Antrim games.

A new modern stadium with all the facilities and conveniences? It's hard to say, but if you compare it to the new Croker, IMO it's likely to attract people from far and wide and I'd say across the "community". It's position next to the M1 is going to have everyone who travels that direction into the city curious at the very least. The existing Casement is a soulless concretion jungle which very rarely gets an attractive game and when it does it's stewarded by parochial Antrim officials. The new Casement would have to be run on a more professional stadium management organisation so the current abuses don't continue. Again, Croke Park was the same before redevelopment and I remember well jumping turnstiles, climbing the wall or just giving a fiver to get in through the exit gate.

Minder

Quote from: Ulick on February 19, 2012, 12:50:12 AM
Quote from: Maguire01 on February 18, 2012, 02:05:08 PM
What proportion of those million people are even remotely likely to attend a game at Casement?
You mention Belfast - how many Belfast neutrals pop into games at Casement at the minute? People in Belfast don't even go to Antrim games.

A new modern stadium with all the facilities and conveniences? It's hard to say, but if you compare it to the new Croker, IMO it's likely to attract people from far and wide and I'd say across the "community". It's position next to the M1 is going to have everyone who travels that direction into the city curious at the very least. The existing Casement is a soulless concretion jungle which very rarely gets an attractive game and when it does it's stewarded by parochial Antrim officials. The new Casement would have to be run on a more professional stadium management organisation so the current abuses don't continue. Again, Croke Park was the same before redevelopment and I remember well jumping turnstiles, climbing the wall or just giving a fiver to get in through the exit gate.

Ulick, unfortunately the same Antrim officials will be there, that will be part of the deal.
"When it's too tough for them, it's just right for us"

Ulick

Quote from: Minder on February 19, 2012, 12:42:36 AM
Why would they move about 12 games a season to Dunsilly when they need the smaller attendances to "break even" ?

Not sure I get you Minder. Surely having regular small attendances would only increase the loss in revenue by having to open and staff the whole stadium - that's why Dublin play their league games in Parnell Park? Casement would only be open for smaller attendances if it was to be a showpiece game - MacRory, Herald, 1st round championship & qualifiers, hurling & camogie finals and maybe Sigerson when it's here. 

Milltown Row2

Quote from: armaghniac on February 17, 2012, 06:28:50 PM
QuoteAll Ireland Quarter Finals

Belfast is not well situated for such games. Fine if it is some combination of Down/Derry/Tyrone/Armagh nut not much use if a team from another province is involved.

QuoteUlster Finals

This would be the main application. Was the Ulster final full this year?

QuoteInternational Rules Matches

Once every 3 years or even less frequently?

QuoteBig Championship Matches

There aren't so many of those. Armagh v Down last year was nowhere near full,  and Armagh v Tyrone didn't need tickets either. Of course if the Armagh and Tyrone rivalry had been in its prime then perhaps there would be more, but this was an typical period.

What was the biggest crowd in the last 20 years at an Antrim game?

Ulster Football final a few years ago was busy.

We are 1.30 Hours away from Dublin which as far as I'm aware is outside of Ulster

Dublin is a city, Belfast is also a city. Croke park is a busy housing area and so is Casement.

Motorway to Casement, granted parking is not as good as when you go to Croke, no wait it's the same!!

You have based your points/reasons because you'd rather have it somewhere else, maybe closer to you.

The money is being given to Casement can't do anything about it, outside of Croke Parks hands in fairness

By the way Ulick Dublin for the past 2 years have been playing league games at Croke to increase the gate!!
None of us are getting out of here alive, so please stop treating yourself like an after thought. Ea

Minder

Quote from: Ulick on February 19, 2012, 01:04:25 AM
Quote from: Minder on February 19, 2012, 12:42:36 AM
Why would they move about 12 games a season to Dunsilly when they need the smaller attendances to "break even" ?

Not sure I get you Minder. Surely having regular small attendances would only increase the loss in revenue by having to open and staff the whole stadium - that's why Dublin play their league games in Parnell Park? Casement would only be open for smaller attendances if it was to be a showpiece game - MacRory, Herald, 1st round championship & qualifiers, hurling & camogie finals and maybe Sigerson when it's here.

The whole stadium isn't staffed, as per any Antrim game, they only open the main stand usually, and not even the lower part, depending on the game.
"When it's too tough for them, it's just right for us"

Maguire01

Quote from: Ulick on February 19, 2012, 12:50:12 AM
Quote from: Maguire01 on February 18, 2012, 02:05:08 PM
What proportion of those million people are even remotely likely to attend a game at Casement?
You mention Belfast - how many Belfast neutrals pop into games at Casement at the minute? People in Belfast don't even go to Antrim games.

A new modern stadium with all the facilities and conveniences? It's hard to say, but if you compare it to the new Croker, IMO it's likely to attract people from far and wide and I'd say across the "community". It's position next to the M1 is going to have everyone who travels that direction into the city curious at the very least. The existing Casement is a soulless concretion jungle which very rarely gets an attractive game and when it does it's stewarded by parochial Antrim officials. The new Casement would have to be run on a more professional stadium management organisation so the current abuses don't continue. Again, Croke Park was the same before redevelopment and I remember well jumping turnstiles, climbing the wall or just giving a fiver to get in through the exit gate.
What's the point in comparing it to the new Croker? It's not as if the old Croker was lying empty.

Maguire01

Quote from: Ulick on February 19, 2012, 12:38:01 AM
Quote from: Maguire01 on February 18, 2012, 02:00:07 PM
I'd expect there to be a clear rationale behind the planned capacity. Why 40,000? What is this based on?
It doesn't have to be a sell-out every time. But what's the point in building something that will rarely reach capacity? And how many bigger events is there likely to be to subsidise the smaller ones (i.e. just about every Antrim game)?

No idea, but I was thinking Antrim games would be going to Dunsilly or somewhere more suitable to the expected attendance.
So there'll be absolutely no games then between August (best case scenario, getting a QF) and April (again, best case scenario - league finals)? That sounds viable.

Maguire01

Quote from: Ulick on February 19, 2012, 12:34:25 AM
Quote from: Maguire01 on February 18, 2012, 01:52:31 PM
The location was mentioned in the context of attracting other events. It's fine for GAA events. The question is whether major concert promoters, for example, would be willing to book major artists at a venue that might be off-putting to a proportion of their potential audience. For the same reason, a redeveloped Windsor Park - just as accessible as Casement - is also unlikely to be attractive as a concert venue.

Well Windsor wouldn't put me off as a concert venue and if some of the OWC posters are to be believed, I'm the ultimate Fenian bigot, so I don't see why a venue a few hundred meters from the M1 would deter even the most hardened unionist.
I don't believe it wouldn't be an issue.

Maguire01

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 19, 2012, 01:08:29 AM
The money is being given to Casement can't do anything about it, outside of Croke Parks hands in fairness
I think it's accepted that they money is going to be used on Casement. It's just about how that money is best used. And whether a 40,000 capacity stadium is the answer.

snatter

Coming back to the tender specs, any idea why the stadium has to achieve a BREEAM rating of "excellent"?
Is it not an expensive eco-luxury, the cost of which would be better spent on fitting out the stadium to a higher standard?
My guess is that consultants, architects, etc all benefit from over-specifying to ramp up costs. They benefit, but we get little tangible benefit in return.

This link details the exponential increase in cost of aiming for a BREEAM of "excellent" in schools, rather than the perfectly acceptable, and easily achievable "very good" rating.

http://www.fgould.com/uk/projects/the-cost-of-breeam-compliance-in-schools/

It was found that in some circumstances the exponentially increasing costs of achieving the additional credits for an 'Excellent' rating can detract significantly from the project's affordability.

Score      BREEAM rating     Cost
40           Good             Little or no extra cost
55           Very Good          £19/m² additional cost
70+           Excellent           May cost an extra £60/m²

The study highlights that attempting to reach BREEAM Excellent can mean additional costs climb very steeply.
An 'Excellent' rating will be very hard to achieve without incorporating a suitable renewable energy solution, which will often be the only practicable method of achieving an 'Excellent' rating.

The 'Excellent' rating can only be achieved through the addition of a renewable energy option.

The renewable credits, associated with the installation of technologies such as ground source heat pumps (GSHP), biomass boilers, solar thermal hot water systems, photovoltaic 'solar cells' (PV) or small scale wind turbines are likely to be among the most expensive to attain.

However, current trends suggest that the inclusion of an on-site renewable energy source is likely to become a mandatory requirement for future projects.

On a positive note, the study demonstrates that achieving a 'Very Good' rating is not likely to create significant extra costs, provided that satisfaction of the BREEAM credits is given due consideration early in the design process.




aontroim

The place will be used just as much as it currently is, between Antrim club games, schools games, colleges, county games - regardless of crowd it will still be available for use as before as Antrim's main ground, and Casement social club will be re-housed in there somewhere too.  Even chat that Ulster Council are looking to move there.

Applesisapples

Lads, thinking in the here and now you would only build a 25,000 capacity stadium. You are only going to get this money once. Therefore some future proofing is needed. if a fenian like me can go to Ravenhill to watch a concert, plenty of liberal unionists will attend Casement. If the GAA get the right pricing structure in place Ulster Finals will sell out. And if some of the Kerry posters have their way sure the Ulster Final could be renamed the All-Northern Ireland Final and it would then be the holy grali! :) Joking aside we would be lambasting the GAA in 10 years time when the economy has changed and a 25,000 stadium was too small. I say fair play to them for their ambition for our games and look forward to a Linfiled vs Cross Rangers Ulster Club Final in 2020. ;)

AQMP

Offaly man Noel Molloy to oversee development of Casement (and Ravenhill and Windsor).  Being from Birr at least he should know a bit about the needs of hurling fans!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/northern-ireland/17630485

Titanic man to oversee NI sport stadiums projects

The man who oversaw the construction of the new Titanic Belfast building has been headhunted to project manage the redevelopment of the three Northern Ireland sport stadiums.

Noel Molloy will become programme director for the Ravenhill, Casement Park and Windsor Park projects.

Government funding of £130m has been signed off on for the overall project.

Up until now, Sport Northern Ireland had sole responsibility for the joint stadiums project.

Sport Northern Ireland is the public body tasked with the development of sport in Northern Ireland and employs over 80 people.

Funded by the Departure of Culture, Arts and Leisure and the lottery, SportNI works in partnership with Stormont as its implementation arm.

Sports Minister Caral Ni Chuilin confirmed that she had appointed Mr Molloy "as the new programme director following his role in delivering Titanic Belfast".

In a statement, the Sports Minister added that it had "become clear in recent months that the original estimates in the timescales for construction of the stadiums will not be met.

Use accessible player and disable flyout menusNoel Molloy, who oversaw the construction of the new Titanic Belfast building, has been headhunted to project manage the redevelopment of the three Northern Ireland sport stadiums

"Earlier this week I held further discussions with Mr Molloy and senior figures from rugby, soccer and gaelic. This followed constructive meetings last week with the SportNI chair and board," continued the minister.

"Having considered the options I have decided to bring overall operational responsibility for delivery of the stadium programme into my department.

"The stadium development programme is at the top of my department's agenda.

"Officials are working on a structured handover process with SportNI.

"This will ensure that the department, in conjunction with all existing stakeholders, can effectively deliver the next phase of the stadium programme.

"I wish to thank SportNI for its work to date, and ongoing assistance and support during the next phase of this vital capital programme."

SportNI's chief executive Eamonn McCartan was unavailable for comment on Thursday.

Prior to working on Titanic Belfast, Molloy, a native of Birr in county Offaly, was project manager for the refurbishment and redevelopment of the premier Royal Oasis resort in the Bahamas.