The same-sex marriage referendum debate

[easytiger95]

What you have not shown is what adverse effect allowing same sex couples to marry will have on that 75%, despite nearly every post you have made decrying the deterioration this would cause.

what you have not accounted for is what position the 25% hold if marriage is only intrinsically a marriage when it is intended for procreation?

What you have not answered is why, given the fact that the Children and Family relationship Act explicitly gives gay couples the right to adopt and raise children, why you continually raise the welfare of children as a significant factor in opposing same sex marriage.

I called you a troll because you acted like a troll. You weren't able to answer for yourself two nights ago and instead have chosen to ignore that exchange completely and ask contributors exactly the same questions and detour the debate into the same cul de sacs. And you conveniently ignore the attack you made on my values re families, a hateful thing to say, especially as you know nothing of my background.

That is trolling - as are ad hominem attacks you have made on me by saying I called you a homophobe when I didn't. Saying you have the attention span of a goldfish (which is being kind, I actually think all your actions are deliberate) does not compare.

[rosnarun]

in the name of Equality, Dignity and partity of esteem  Ive decided to become 7 foot tall.
in order to achieve this the  Foot will now be 11 inches long
this will not affect tape measures in any way, rulers will remain what they alway have been,
I hope none of you cavemen measureaphobic bastards will object to this

[dferg]

in the name of Equality, Dignity and partity of esteem  Ive decided to become 7 foot tall.
in order to achieve this the  Foot will now be 11 inches long
this will not affect tape measures in any way, rulers will remain what they alway have been,
I hope none of you cavemen measureaphobic b**tards will object to this

If it makes you happy go for it 

Just remember to bring a conversion calculator if you are buying a pair of shoes.

[Ulick]

Any truth in this Noel Whelan craic about Catholic agencies such as Trocaire and St Vincent de Paul losing government funding if the Yes vote goes though?

[armaghniac]

Since the yes campaign has little time for either logic or right, anything is possible. I'm not sure about Trocaire, but the likes of marriage guidance could be coerced to guide those making a mockery of marriage as well as real married people.

[Maguire01]

Since the yes campaign has little time for either logic or right, anything is possible. I'm not sure about Trocaire, but the likes of marriage guidance could be coerced to guide those making a mockery of marriage as well as real married people.

Who would they be? Married people who have had affairs?

[Eamonnca1]

Since the yes campaign has little time for either logic or right, anything is possible. I'm not sure about Trocaire, but the likes of marriage guidance could be coerced to guide those making a mockery of marriage as well as real married people.

Who would they be? Married people who have had affairs?

I think he's talking about people who get married in Vegas and get it annulled the following day.

[The Boy Wonder]

Just looking at this from perspective of practicing Christians who make up a significant percentage of the population
- a proportion of these, including clergy and members of religious orders have no problem voting YES to same-sex marriage
- a proportion will vote NO as they do have genuine problems of conscience.

There is no "right" way to vote on this issue - each person should vote according to their conscience and we all obviously have a duty to be as fully informed as possible and not let any personal prejudice affect our decision.

One of the reasons that many practicing Christians will vote NO is as follows :
Marriage is a Sacrament of the Church, sodomy as practiced by many same-sex partners is a sin in the eyes of the Church so some Christians will see marriage being tainted by opening it up to same-sex couples.
People holding this viewpoint will be castigated as homophobic but this does not necessarily follow. Whether you want to take my word or not I can assure you that I neither judge nor condemn any person because they are gay.

I appreciate this viewpoint will be lambasted by some, derided by others and I will be amused by the reaction of some trolls on here.

Of course a large segment of the population are not practicing Christians and I am not for a minute denying the validity of their input to this debate.

I recognise and agree with many of the strong arguments for a YES vote but we all have our beliefs, ideals and values and in my case I'm on the NO side. Equality is a word that is bandied about a lot - let's have tolerance too.

[Tubberman]

Just looking at this from perspective of practicing Christians who make up a significant percentage of the population
- a proportion of these, including clergy and members of religious orders have no problem voting YES to same-sex marriage
- a proportion will vote NO as they do have genuine problems of conscience.

There is no "right" way to vote on this issue - each person should vote according to their conscience and we all obviously have a duty to be as fully informed as possible and not let any personal prejudice affect our decision.

One of the reasons that many practicing Christians will vote NO is as follows :
Marriage is a Sacrament of the Church, sodomy as practiced by many same-sex partners is a sin in the eyes of the Church so some Christians will see marriage being tainted by opening it up to same-sex couples.
People holding this viewpoint will be castigated as homophobic but this does not necessarily follow. Whether you want to take my word or not I can assure you that I neither judge nor condemn any person because they are gay.

I appreciate this viewpoint will be lambasted by some, derided by others and I will be amused by the reaction of some trolls on here.

Of course a large segment of the population are not practicing Christians and I am not for a minute denying the validity of their input to this debate.

I recognise and agree with many of the strong arguments for a YES vote but we all have our beliefs, ideals and values and in my case I'm on the NO side. Equality is a word that is bandied about a lot - let's have tolerance too.

The referendum is about CIVIL marriage, it does not impact religious marriage.

[Maguire01]

Just looking at this from perspective of practicing Christians who make up a significant percentage of the population
- a proportion of these, including clergy and members of religious orders have no problem voting YES to same-sex marriage
- a proportion will vote NO as they do have genuine problems of conscience.

There is no "right" way to vote on this issue - each person should vote according to their conscience and we all obviously have a duty to be as fully informed as possible and not let any personal prejudice affect our decision.

One of the reasons that many practicing Christians will vote NO is as follows :
Marriage is a Sacrament of the Church, sodomy as practiced by many same-sex partners is a sin in the eyes of the Church so some Christians will see marriage being tainted by opening it up to same-sex couples.
People holding this viewpoint will be castigated as homophobic but this does not necessarily follow. Whether you want to take my word or not I can assure you that I neither judge nor condemn any person because they are gay.

I appreciate this viewpoint will be lambasted by some, derided by others and I will be amused by the reaction of some trolls on here.

Of course a large segment of the population are not practicing Christians and I am not for a minute denying the validity of their input to this debate.

I recognise and agree with many of the strong arguments for a YES vote but we all have our beliefs, ideals and values and in my case I'm on the NO side. Equality is a word that is bandied about a lot - let's have tolerance too.

This has nothing to do with the sacrament of marriage. It's about civil marriage. Unless the churches change their minds, the sacrament will remain restricted as it is now.

[The Boy Wonder]

Yes - I understand the distinction. Was just expressing how marriage is viewed from one particular perspective.

[screenexile]

If the Church outlaws sodomy does that mean Lesbianism is OK??

[muppet]

Any truth in this Noel Whelan craic about Catholic agencies such as Trocaire and St Vincent de Paul losing government funding if the Yes vote goes though?

How does this even make sense?

If the Yes vote goes through the Government will be extremely happy. Unless it is the charities refusing the funding, which would be insane, it is hardly going to be stopped by a happy Government in election year.

Of course a link might help.

[muppet]

http://www.con-telegraph.ie/news/roundup/articles/2015/05/06/4037499-fr-standn-im-voting-yes/

Fr. Standún: I'm voting 'Yes'
Wednesday, 6th May, 2015 3:33pm

'WE don't do God' is a phrase attributed to Alastair Campbell, former British Prime Minister Tony Blair's spokesperson and spin-doctor. 'We don't do equality' is a phrase some might use with regard to the church to which I have given more than 50 years of my life since going to Maynooth in 1964.

The Roman Catholic Church does not have gender equality behind its altars, and its leadership is not in favour of a yes vote in the marriage equality or same sex marriage referendum. Leading Archbishops of Armagh and Dublin have been careful to ask voters to think seriously about changing the traditional meaning of marriage, rather than asking them to oppose the change that is proposed by the government.

This is fair enough, even though I suspect that more Roman Catholics will in practice support the proposal than vote against. The sensus fidelium, the view from the pew, which is as powerful as any other church infallibility, says that now is the right time. The people of God have moved on. Leaders please follow.

I am one of those clergy-persons who intends to vote yes, not to c**k a snoot at the leadership of my church, or to jump on a popular bandwagon, but because I think it is the right thing to do. As a follower of Jesus, the a lá carte Jew who recognised when certain laws had run their courses, I am convinced that now is the right time to have marriage equality.

Perhaps it is the end of marriage as we knew it in relatively recent times, but marriage has gone through many changes down through the centuries. In the lifetime of the Bible itself, marriage changed greatly from Abraham to Jesus despite our emphasis on certain quotes that back up particular arguments.

We are discussing changes in the civil law in the forthcoming referendum. Churches can and will retain their own emphases in the celebration of marriage, but in a pluralist, live and let live society, I have no problem with the law of the land being more inclusive.

Right now I think the Roman Catholic Church and other churches and religions should be devising appropriate liturgies for the blessing of gay and lesbian marriages of those who would welcome such ceremonies. Many people who choose civil marriage for one reason or another still request and appreciate blessings on such important milestones in their lives. Could any clergyman or woman refuse a blessing asked for in sincerity?

Groupthink was one of those words applied to RTÉ executives in the wake of the defamation of Father Kevin Reynolds a couple of years ago. It can equally be applied to clericalist acceptance of certain arguments without question or proper theological examination.

We in the Roman Catholic Church have made so many mistakes in the past half century or so that we need to stand back and question our motives in taking certain stances, in fighting unnecessary battles with outdated catchphrases.

It is time to be positive, to welcome gay, lesbian and transgender to the top table.

* Fr. Pádraig Standún, writing in this week's column, Standún's Station, in The Connaught Telegraph

- See more at: http://www.con-telegraph.ie/news/roundup/articles/2015/05/06/4037499-fr-standn-im-voting-yes/#sthash.6zcnQ51k.dpuf

[The Boy Wonder]

I've absolutely no problem with Fr. Standún's views quoted above - he has obviously given thorough consideration to the issue.
There's no Right or Wrong way to vote - if we all vote conscientiously then whatever the outcome it will reflect majority thinking.