Armagh Club football & hurling

[BenDover]

Ben,
This is the Armagh team, substitutes and scorers in yesterdays game against St Mary's

Ciaran McKinney; Andy Mallon, Kieran Toner, Paudie McCreesh; JP Donnelly, Brendan Donaghy, Tony McClelland; Philip Loughran, Gareth Swift; Peadar Toal (0-3), Malachy Mackin (0-2), Martin Ferris (0-2); Stephen McDonnell (0-3), Martin O'Rourke, Stephan Forker.
Substitutes were Kevin O'Rourke for Peadar Toal and Neil McSherry for Stephan Forker.

Cheers Armagh Exile,

Think I read on the McKenna cup thread or previously on this thread that Peadar only came on as a sub in the last 10, but yet you have him in the first 15, how'd he fair out?

[man in black]

You are a truly sickening bastard MIB, clear off to f**k and leave people do discuss their GAA in peace

Sorry is it a sore subject?
ah bless

What are you even doing on this thread anyway.

Contributing. And yourself?

[Goats Do Shave]

Irish News has Peader down as startin...came off with 10 minutes to go!

Big Joe thought he had a good 1st half...scoring 3points from play!

After all his negative publicity....IMO he is a good lad, hope he pushes on now, with Armagh needing to unearth a few forwards!!

He could be a class act!

[BenDover]

Irish News has Peader down as startin...came off with 10 minutes to go!

Big Joe thought he had a good 1st half...scoring 3points from play!

After all his negative publicity....IMO he is a good lad, hope he pushes on now, with Armagh needing to unearth a few forwards!!

He could be a class act!

More than likely I prob misread the previous post. 

A few games should do him no harm at least now he's got something to build on

[Six Inch Nail]

Toal's man was the best man on the field.  As far as I can see Toal is ok for the fancy shit (which was evidenced by that soccer sytle shit that he attempted that the end) and doesn't want any of the hard work.  His man was up and down the field all day and Toal was no where to be seen.  At that rate of going on he might be worth a try in the corner, otherwise I don't think he has anything to offer!

[two man tackle]

armagh losers

[corn02]

two man tackle again!  why are we losers then?

[two man tackle]

generally when you dont win, you lose - hence losers

[corn02]

but we often win so would you elaborate on calling us losers.

[Rufus T Firefly]

Brokencrossbar wrote

Looking at it now form the outside a few things occur to me.  Many club structures must be very weak once they get to senior level.  As has been observed by a few here, until recent years we have not been overly successful at underage.  Not blowing my trumpet but it wasn't until the underage team that I played on came around that we started to dominate.  I was blessed with playing on a superb underage team which was the genesis of the current dominance.  We were, however, no more dominant in our age groups than say, Pearse Ogs were.  We won the 1989 and the 1993 minors.  Ogs won 4-5 in a row at minors during the mid 90's.  The 1989 team had Califf, Colm O'Neill, Joe Fitz, Gary McShane, Frank Shields who went on to the senior squad and the rest of the senior sqaud apart from a 2-3 old heads was made of the 1993 team.  We did not have the continued success that the Ogs had and they fell apart.  The Harps had similar success and haven't made the breakthrough.  It is very difficult to put a reason on this.  While we may have greater pick than say t Dromintee, we do not have the same potenial numbers that the city clubs have or the Lurgan teams.

 

and

Also the whole success breeds success is a bit of a cop out in my view.  It certainly breeds confidence but it doesn't breed ability and a will to stick at it.  It may be easier for us to keep kids interested, but in 1995 whenever Mullaghbawn beat us it would have been very easy for a lot of the younger ones to say well f**k this we haven't won since 1985 we'll never win and we could just go on the drink or head off to Australia or whatever.  We didn't.  We had just been humiliated on television.  Some of you may remember the documentary done with the Down team of 1994.  We were humiliated on national television and it would have been easy to hide.  We had no success to fall back on, we had no senior medals(apart from Jim and Jarlath McConville), we had a manager being ripped apart within the club because of the way he been looking after the team.  We didn't hide and got on with it.  We may have been lucky but we made our own luck instead of excuses and we reaped the rewards. We may not win 20 in a row but we could give it a good rattle all things being equal.

I wrote on the Harps thread, in discussion as to the difference between ourselves and Cross;

Cross produce quality players alright, but if you look at their underage success, we are on at least a par with them, if not better, as are the Ogs. What Cross manage to do is keep all their good players on board. As an example, that Harps team playing yesterday should have been the team that won an Ulster Minor Club Championship, three years tomorrow. Yet in that short timespan, look how many - for one reason or another - did not feature yesterday? Harps, as an example, are not bringing through fully their underage talent, and as a consequence, any hope of the Seniors making the breakthrough will become an absolute pipe dream.

and

There is also an element of 'success breeding success', and there appears to be a culture in Cross of looking up to their local heroes and trying to emulate them. Think about that culture and what it means, and compare that to our own Club as we enter 2007!

Enough said! As for last Saturday, I could genuinely write pages about the difference between Cross and ourselves. We gave Cross a good run for their money in a County Semi-final at the tail end of 2003, with a young team, half made up of minors and under 21s. The future looked great! As of the start of this year, it is likely that less than half of that team will be playing Senior football. In contrast, Cross have successfully moved on, changing their team (for positive reasons) and coming back totally reinvented. The Harps on the other hand have kept losing many of the underage prospects that we had.

I don't normally talk out of shop about what goes on in Committee meetings. However our inability to keep on board much of our underage talent is a real cause for concern in meetings, and recently a photo of our successful minor team of 2004 was produced which showed that over half of the thirty in the picture no longer play football with the Harps. Meanwhile in Cross there is yet more success which gives more and more underage players the incentive to get to the Senior team - what better than healthy competition to keep bringing out the best in your resources?!

I can see the Harps' problems mirrored throughout the County. What is required in our Club is a sea change in the culture of our young players. Given that, and what I saw in Mullabrack last Saturday, I could see Cross doing twenty in a row at Senior level - and I'm not exaggerating!    

We both appear to agree that your underage success is not the reason for the extent of your dominance at Senior level. Obviously having exceptional footballers is a help! I would have to take issue though with 'success breeding success'. I feel the very fact that we agree that Cross's success is not based on exceptional underage exploits means there is another reason.

Success breeding success is an absolute reality, though whether it is a cop out or not, for a variety of people is another matter. Success breeding success works on several levels and of course has an equal an opposite effect elsewhere, i.e. failure breeding failure - two examples - the two Pearse Og games in Keady versus Cross when Ogs had the game in their hands and could not finish it off - Rangers had the self belief built up by their great success, the Ogs the opposite, lack of self belief.

The second example - last week's Under 21 semi-final - Cross fielded their best possible team -  the Harps did not. Cross to my mind are the epitome of success breeding success. They are now maximising their resources - the whole thing is self fulfilling - the more success the greater the ambition amongst young players, the greater the competition for places, the greater the pick etc etc. And of course, as a consequence, the average attitude of a young Rangers players is far ahead of the attitude of a young Harps player. It pains me to say it, but that's a fact.  

The reality is BC1, that you have enjoyed such success at Senior Level, over such a period of time, that lack of success has become a totally foreign concept!



 

[BenDover]

generally when you dont win, you lose - hence losers

It seems as if this two man tackle character is just a wind up merchant with a grudge against every1 ranginf from Armagh to the Gaa Presidents. Too much time on his hands to be stirring the melting pot I think 

[corn02]

Absolutely Pint a defender if ever i seen one, weird decision.

[brokencrossbar1]

Rufus, what you say is right to an extent but if you follow your logic then Harps and Pearse Ogs really should be transferring to the bigger stage but they have failed.  They have been the dominant underage teams in the last 10 years but have not brought this successfully to senior level.  Sure enough Cross can keep the young players interested because of the success of the senior teams but that was not the case when me made the breakthrough.  We did not have dominanace at underage, Clans were the main team at that stage. 

If you look at the players that the Ogs and harps teams had on the Minor teams, Ronan Clarke, McKinney,Mallon,Swift,Quigley,Toal, Vernon and many more on reputation alone they would be as good, if not better than most of us at that age.  They had success at schools and club level so the were used to winning.  At a time when Armagh football is at it's strongest (and I don't care what anyone says to the contrary, but club football in Armagh has got more good players playing now than when I started) teams seem to be unable to break the run.  To my view, the same old lines come out every year with no change to the way things are being done. 

I know it is easy for me to say all this from my "foreign" homestead now, and I am sure some of my old team mates would want me to stay quiet as I know some are definitely lurkers of the site, but Cross have won 3 Armagh seniors, 2 Minors and 1 u-21 in my time on the board as a poster(shit I am here over 3 years now!). Each year the press and the people in this board have ran off the same old reasons why.  It is maybe time that people looked at what is really happening, take the Cross model,and put it in place.  People I would suggest have tried and failed, so maybe the magic ingredient is the difference and it will stay secret!

[corn02]

steroids???


Cross not being dominant at underage is quite irrelevant. Players need to keep developing right up to senior level. Cross have been lucky that certain players have devloped very well when placed on the senior panel. Look at the Cross Senior team this year, there are a number of players who have tranformed into great senior players and who never would of stood out at underage.

[brokencrossbar1]

Border Fox, are you in any way connected with cross from a few years ago?

What you say about the system is right.  It is nothing spectacular but it has be developed over the years and I firmly believe it is the difference.  I wouldn't say it is total football a la Ajax in that all the children from a young age are taught how to play a certain way but it is not far off it.

You are also right about getting the best out of players.  Another example is wee Fish Aherne.   He was always a skillful enough player but never outstanding.  There is talk of him in Armagh circles now.

And don't even try to start that old chestnut of taking players, as you know it is a non starter