HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?

Started by RedHand88, March 20, 2021, 02:56:58 PM

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Would you back unity if a border poll was held tomorrow?

Yes (Northerner)
No (Northerner)
Yes (Southener)
No (Southener)

Taylor

Quote from: michaelg on March 23, 2021, 03:20:27 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on March 23, 2021, 12:51:03 PM
Quote from: michaelg on March 23, 2021, 12:34:02 PM
Quote from: general_lee on March 23, 2021, 12:04:00 PM
Quote from: oakleaflad on March 23, 2021, 11:51:32 AM
I've seen a lot of people saying 'we can't afford the North' but surely on an island our size we'd be better off having an All Ireland economy? Are studies like the following nonsense?

https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/arid-20388959.html
I'm not an economist but surely it stands to reason that after 100 years, most of which has been spent as an economic failure, the move towards an all-island economy can only benefit the North.
Comments like this gloss over the ailing ROI economy for the first 70 odd years of its existence where high unemployment and emigration was widespread.  Coupled with the propensity for a boom and bust style economy, it's maybe not just as straightforward as people think.

No, they don't. Partition imposed a cost, greater for NI than the ROI, and still does. Those dislocations can be ameliorated. The ROI was not very prosperous after independence, but it was not prosperous before independence. The 1930s and 1940s were not great periods in world history for boosting your international trade. The ROI lost a few years at the start of the 1950s, but in the late 1950s they got the show on the road and have progressed relative to NI ever since.
I note how your response chooses to ignore the fact that NI would continue remain as part of the UK, the 6th largest economy in the world.  That may have a bearing in people's decision making when economic factors are being considered.

Correct Michael however the only thing this proves is that Westminster is propping up NI with billions per year.

If that payment starts reducing then this place is fooked.

Many English people (including politicians) couldnt care less if NI is part of the UK or not

trailer

Quote from: michaelg on March 23, 2021, 03:20:27 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on March 23, 2021, 12:51:03 PM
Quote from: michaelg on March 23, 2021, 12:34:02 PM
Quote from: general_lee on March 23, 2021, 12:04:00 PM
Quote from: oakleaflad on March 23, 2021, 11:51:32 AM
I've seen a lot of people saying 'we can't afford the North' but surely on an island our size we'd be better off having an All Ireland economy? Are studies like the following nonsense?

https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/arid-20388959.html
I'm not an economist but surely it stands to reason that after 100 years, most of which has been spent as an economic failure, the move towards an all-island economy can only benefit the North.
Comments like this gloss over the ailing ROI economy for the first 70 odd years of its existence where high unemployment and emigration was widespread.  Coupled with the propensity for a boom and bust style economy, it's maybe not just as straightforward as people think.

No, they don't. Partition imposed a cost, greater for NI than the ROI, and still does. Those dislocations can be ameliorated. The ROI was not very prosperous after independence, but it was not prosperous before independence. The 1930s and 1940s were not great periods in world history for boosting your international trade. The ROI lost a few years at the start of the 1950s, but in the late 1950s they got the show on the road and have progressed relative to NI ever since.
I note how your response chooses to ignore the fact that NI would continue remain as part of the UK, the 6th largest economy in the world.  That may have a bearing in people's decision making when economic factors are being considered.

Are they still the 6th? I thought they had fell back. Britain and Britishness is on the wane. The greatest threat to Unionism isn't actually Irish Nationalism...It's English Nationalism. Brits care not a jot for the precious union. While this Tory government might talk about the Union the reality is that at the very first hard choice it had between the Union and Brexit, it plumped for Brexit and imposed an Irish Sea Border straight over the heads of Unionists wishes. Hard-line Unionists like Bryson and Geoffrey need to start getting this. The conversation has started, it will only end in one spot with a New Ireland. Do they want to help shape that or stand on the sidelines and complain about the outcome? I know which side I would choose.

trailer

Quote from: trailer on March 23, 2021, 03:28:11 PM
Quote from: michaelg on March 23, 2021, 03:20:27 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on March 23, 2021, 12:51:03 PM
Quote from: michaelg on March 23, 2021, 12:34:02 PM
Quote from: general_lee on March 23, 2021, 12:04:00 PM
Quote from: oakleaflad on March 23, 2021, 11:51:32 AM
I've seen a lot of people saying 'we can't afford the North' but surely on an island our size we'd be better off having an All Ireland economy? Are studies like the following nonsense?

https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/arid-20388959.html
I'm not an economist but surely it stands to reason that after 100 years, most of which has been spent as an economic failure, the move towards an all-island economy can only benefit the North.
Comments like this gloss over the ailing ROI economy for the first 70 odd years of its existence where high unemployment and emigration was widespread.  Coupled with the propensity for a boom and bust style economy, it's maybe not just as straightforward as people think.

No, they don't. Partition imposed a cost, greater for NI than the ROI, and still does. Those dislocations can be ameliorated. The ROI was not very prosperous after independence, but it was not prosperous before independence. The 1930s and 1940s were not great periods in world history for boosting your international trade. The ROI lost a few years at the start of the 1950s, but in the late 1950s they got the show on the road and have progressed relative to NI ever since.
I note how your response chooses to ignore the fact that NI would continue remain as part of the UK, the 6th largest economy in the world.  That may have a bearing in people's decision making when economic factors are being considered.

Are they still the 6th? I thought they had fell back. Britain and Britishness is on the wane. The greatest threat to Unionism isn't actually Irish Nationalism...It's English Nationalism. Brits care not a jot for the precious union. While this Tory government might talk about the Union the reality is that at the very first hard choice it had between the Union and Brexit, it plumped for Brexit and imposed an Irish Sea Border straight over the heads of Unionists wishes. Hard-line Unionists like Bryson and Geoffrey need to start getting this. The conversation has started, it will only end in one spot with a New Ireland. Do they want to help shape that or stand on the sidelines and complain about the outcome? I know which side I would choose.

I should also add that the DUP and their "Britishness" is very far removed from what the everyday English person relates to. Brits are for the most part Liberal in their outlook. They are not the right wing Christian fundamentalists that the DUP for the most part are. Brits look at them and shake their heads.

johnnycool

Quote from: michaelg on March 23, 2021, 03:20:27 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on March 23, 2021, 12:51:03 PM
Quote from: michaelg on March 23, 2021, 12:34:02 PM
Quote from: general_lee on March 23, 2021, 12:04:00 PM
Quote from: oakleaflad on March 23, 2021, 11:51:32 AM
I've seen a lot of people saying 'we can't afford the North' but surely on an island our size we'd be better off having an All Ireland economy? Are studies like the following nonsense?

https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/arid-20388959.html
I'm not an economist but surely it stands to reason that after 100 years, most of which has been spent as an economic failure, the move towards an all-island economy can only benefit the North.
Comments like this gloss over the ailing ROI economy for the first 70 odd years of its existence where high unemployment and emigration was widespread.  Coupled with the propensity for a boom and bust style economy, it's maybe not just as straightforward as people think.

No, they don't. Partition imposed a cost, greater for NI than the ROI, and still does. Those dislocations can be ameliorated. The ROI was not very prosperous after independence, but it was not prosperous before independence. The 1930s and 1940s were not great periods in world history for boosting your international trade. The ROI lost a few years at the start of the 1950s, but in the late 1950s they got the show on the road and have progressed relative to NI ever since.
I note how your response chooses to ignore the fact that NI would continue remain as part of the UK, the 6th largest economy in the world.  That may have a bearing in people's decision making when economic factors are being considered.

Probably one of the reasons why Brexit has and may be even more unstabilising for the North is the economic impact it will have.
The UK Exports have taken a fair old hammering in the last few months, unless that is addressed ASAP a lot of businesses may go to the wall never to return as trading in the Asian markets and getting deals there isn't going to be a quick thing.

We really haven't seen how that is going to impact here as yet. It may well be beneficial to have access to the German (5th), French (7th), Italian (9th) and Spanish (11th) markets than the UK market

The NI Protocol is meant to be the best of both worlds. If that really is the case then the economic case for a UI may be dented.

Whitehall will need to make good on the promises that EU funding streams will be maintained. That and any hit to the £8B subvention will have the middle ground looking south potentially.

general_lee

Quote from: michaelg on March 23, 2021, 03:20:27 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on March 23, 2021, 12:51:03 PM
Quote from: michaelg on March 23, 2021, 12:34:02 PM
Quote from: general_lee on March 23, 2021, 12:04:00 PM
Quote from: oakleaflad on March 23, 2021, 11:51:32 AM
I've seen a lot of people saying 'we can't afford the North' but surely on an island our size we'd be better off having an All Ireland economy? Are studies like the following nonsense?

https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/arid-20388959.html
I'm not an economist but surely it stands to reason that after 100 years, most of which has been spent as an economic failure, the move towards an all-island economy can only benefit the North.
Comments like this gloss over the ailing ROI economy for the first 70 odd years of its existence where high unemployment and emigration was widespread.  Coupled with the propensity for a boom and bust style economy, it's maybe not just as straightforward as people think.

No, they don't. Partition imposed a cost, greater for NI than the ROI, and still does. Those dislocations can be ameliorated. The ROI was not very prosperous after independence, but it was not prosperous before independence. The 1930s and 1940s were not great periods in world history for boosting your international trade. The ROI lost a few years at the start of the 1950s, but in the late 1950s they got the show on the road and have progressed relative to NI ever since.
I note how your response chooses to ignore the fact that NI would continue remain as part of the UK, the 6th largest economy in the world.  That may have a bearing in people's decision making when economic factors are being considered.
What good is being part of the 6th biggest economy if you contribute nothing to it? Why, almost 25 years post GFA is NI still one of the worst-off regions in the UK? What exactly is the benefit of being part of this "6th biggest economy"?

In reality the UK economy is centred around London and the south east of England - where fiscal decisions are made which benefit the people who live and work there the most. That's why (as already mentioned) Unionists are expendable and have and will continue to be used by the tories as and when they feel like it. And of course the DUP like good little bootlickers will go back asking for more.

sid waddell

Quote from: trailer on March 23, 2021, 03:28:11 PM
Quote from: michaelg on March 23, 2021, 03:20:27 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on March 23, 2021, 12:51:03 PM
Quote from: michaelg on March 23, 2021, 12:34:02 PM
Quote from: general_lee on March 23, 2021, 12:04:00 PM
Quote from: oakleaflad on March 23, 2021, 11:51:32 AM
I've seen a lot of people saying 'we can't afford the North' but surely on an island our size we'd be better off having an All Ireland economy? Are studies like the following nonsense?

https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/arid-20388959.html
I'm not an economist but surely it stands to reason that after 100 years, most of which has been spent as an economic failure, the move towards an all-island economy can only benefit the North.
Comments like this gloss over the ailing ROI economy for the first 70 odd years of its existence where high unemployment and emigration was widespread.  Coupled with the propensity for a boom and bust style economy, it's maybe not just as straightforward as people think.

No, they don't. Partition imposed a cost, greater for NI than the ROI, and still does. Those dislocations can be ameliorated. The ROI was not very prosperous after independence, but it was not prosperous before independence. The 1930s and 1940s were not great periods in world history for boosting your international trade. The ROI lost a few years at the start of the 1950s, but in the late 1950s they got the show on the road and have progressed relative to NI ever since.
I note how your response chooses to ignore the fact that NI would continue remain as part of the UK, the 6th largest economy in the world.  That may have a bearing in people's decision making when economic factors are being considered.

Are they still the 6th? I thought they had fell back. Britain and Britishness is on the wane. The greatest threat to Unionism isn't actually Irish Nationalism...It's English Nationalism. Brits care not a jot for the precious union. While this Tory government might talk about the Union the reality is that at the very first hard choice it had between the Union and Brexit, it plumped for Brexit and imposed an Irish Sea Border straight over the heads of Unionists wishes. Hard-line Unionists like Bryson and Geoffrey need to start getting this. The conversation has started, it will only end in one spot with a New Ireland. Do they want to help shape that or stand on the sidelines and complain about the outcome? I know which side I would choose.
Little Englanders and Little Englander media do care about the Union

The hit job on Sturgeon over the last few weeks demonstrates this, they'd do anything to try and bury Scottish independence

But they don't care about the people in other parts of the Union

They see the other parts of the Union as England's plaything, as a sort of Greater England, as lebensraum

It's another version of have cake and eat it

five points

#321
Quote from: sid waddell on March 23, 2021, 04:47:37 PM

Little Englanders and Little Englander media do care about the Union

The hit job on Sturgeon over the last few weeks demonstrates this, they'd do anything to try and bury Scottish independence

But they don't care about the people in other parts of the Union

They see the other parts of the Union as England's plaything, as a sort of Greater England, as lebensraum

It's another version of have cake and eat it

I hear you're a Little Englander now, Alex Salmond?  ::) ;D ;D ;D

michaelg

Quote from: general_lee on March 23, 2021, 04:23:40 PM
Quote from: michaelg on March 23, 2021, 03:20:27 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on March 23, 2021, 12:51:03 PM
Quote from: michaelg on March 23, 2021, 12:34:02 PM
Quote from: general_lee on March 23, 2021, 12:04:00 PM
Quote from: oakleaflad on March 23, 2021, 11:51:32 AM
I've seen a lot of people saying 'we can't afford the North' but surely on an island our size we'd be better off having an All Ireland economy? Are studies like the following nonsense?

https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/arid-20388959.html
I'm not an economist but surely it stands to reason that after 100 years, most of which has been spent as an economic failure, the move towards an all-island economy can only benefit the North.
Comments like this gloss over the ailing ROI economy for the first 70 odd years of its existence where high unemployment and emigration was widespread.  Coupled with the propensity for a boom and bust style economy, it's maybe not just as straightforward as people think.

No, they don't. Partition imposed a cost, greater for NI than the ROI, and still does. Those dislocations can be ameliorated. The ROI was not very prosperous after independence, but it was not prosperous before independence. The 1930s and 1940s were not great periods in world history for boosting your international trade. The ROI lost a few years at the start of the 1950s, but in the late 1950s they got the show on the road and have progressed relative to NI ever since.
I note how your response chooses to ignore the fact that NI would continue remain as part of the UK, the 6th largest economy in the world.  That may have a bearing in people's decision making when economic factors are being considered.
What good is being part of the 6th biggest economy if you contribute nothing to it? Why, almost 25 years post GFA is NI still one of the worst-off regions in the UK? What exactly is the benefit of being part of this "6th biggest economy"?

In reality the UK economy is centred around London and the south east of England - where fiscal decisions are made which benefit the people who live and work there the most. That's why (as already mentioned) Unionists are expendable and have and will continue to be used by the tories as and when they feel like it. And of course the DUP like good little bootlickers will go back asking for more.
Support to workers and business during recent pandemic and development and roll-out of vaccine spring to mind.

michaelg

Quote from: trailer on March 23, 2021, 03:32:16 PM
Quote from: trailer on March 23, 2021, 03:28:11 PM
Quote from: michaelg on March 23, 2021, 03:20:27 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on March 23, 2021, 12:51:03 PM
Quote from: michaelg on March 23, 2021, 12:34:02 PM
Quote from: general_lee on March 23, 2021, 12:04:00 PM
Quote from: oakleaflad on March 23, 2021, 11:51:32 AM
I've seen a lot of people saying 'we can't afford the North' but surely on an island our size we'd be better off having an All Ireland economy? Are studies like the following nonsense?

https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/arid-20388959.html
I'm not an economist but surely it stands to reason that after 100 years, most of which has been spent as an economic failure, the move towards an all-island economy can only benefit the North.
Comments like this gloss over the ailing ROI economy for the first 70 odd years of its existence where high unemployment and emigration was widespread.  Coupled with the propensity for a boom and bust style economy, it's maybe not just as straightforward as people think.

No, they don't. Partition imposed a cost, greater for NI than the ROI, and still does. Those dislocations can be ameliorated. The ROI was not very prosperous after independence, but it was not prosperous before independence. The 1930s and 1940s were not great periods in world history for boosting your international trade. The ROI lost a few years at the start of the 1950s, but in the late 1950s they got the show on the road and have progressed relative to NI ever since.
I note how your response chooses to ignore the fact that NI would continue remain as part of the UK, the 6th largest economy in the world.  That may have a bearing in people's decision making when economic factors are being considered.

Are they still the 6th? I thought they had fell back. Britain and Britishness is on the wane. The greatest threat to Unionism isn't actually Irish Nationalism...It's English Nationalism. Brits care not a jot for the precious union. While this Tory government might talk about the Union the reality is that at the very first hard choice it had between the Union and Brexit, it plumped for Brexit and imposed an Irish Sea Border straight over the heads of Unionists wishes. Hard-line Unionists like Bryson and Geoffrey need to start getting this. The conversation has started, it will only end in one spot with a New Ireland. Do they want to help shape that or stand on the sidelines and complain about the outcome? I know which side I would choose.

I should also add that the DUP and their "Britishness" is very far removed from what the everyday English person relates to. Brits are for the most part Liberal in their outlook. They are not the right wing Christian fundamentalists that the DUP for the most part are. Brits look at them and shake their heads.
I that the same 'everyday English person' that voted Brexit?

general_lee

Quote from: michaelg on March 23, 2021, 06:03:34 PM
Support to workers and business during recent pandemic and development and roll-out of vaccine spring to mind.
You're right michaelg, remiss of me to overlook the support given to businesses during the pandemic, especially companies owned by Conservative party donors and pals of the tories... how many £bns of taxpayers money do you reckon has been thrown away? Who needs tenders anyway?

Rossfan

Does Michael realise other Countries also supported workers and businesses.
Davy's given us a dream to cling to
We're going to bring home the SAM

michaelg

Quote from: Rossfan on March 23, 2021, 06:49:37 PM
Does Michael realise other Countries also supported workers and businesses.
Of course.  Simply stating that level of support from UK government was good.

tonto1888

Quote from: michaelg on March 23, 2021, 07:23:28 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on March 23, 2021, 06:49:37 PM
Does Michael realise other Countries also supported workers and businesses.
Of course.  Simply stating that level of support from UK government was good.

Was it not the least that was expected from them?

michaelg

Quote from: tonto1888 on March 23, 2021, 07:26:12 PM
Quote from: michaelg on March 23, 2021, 07:23:28 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on March 23, 2021, 06:49:37 PM
Does Michael realise other Countries also supported workers and businesses.
Of course.  Simply stating that level of support from UK government was good.

Was it not the least that was expected from them?
Had never considered what might happen in the event of a global pandemic.

Rossfan

Davy's given us a dream to cling to
We're going to bring home the SAM