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Messages - michaelg

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1
General discussion / Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
« on: March 31, 2021, 01:52:57 PM »
Is there any actual possibility of discussion on how a potential new Ireland might look, or is that not possible without a frank honest discussion on the past?
The fantasy of a glorious "new" Ireland is based on the fantastical premise that Unionists will simply fall in and accept it

I dare say some Protestant Unionists had this same fantasy about Irish Catholics in the six counties

Some will accept it

Many will not

And thus the six counties are destined to always be afflicted with division and turmoil

Doesn't matter which jurisdiction they're under, they will always be afflicted because it's a classic territorial dispute where one section of the population believes it is an inherent state of nature for the territory which makes up the six counties to be part of one state

And another section of the population believes it is an inherent state of nature for the territory which makes up the six counties to be part of a different state

You can't square that, somebody has to lose

The only alternative is that people learn to forget about Irish nationalism and British nationalism and think about forging a society that works for all

The majority of voters in the six counties vote for parties for whom that is not a priority

The best thing that could happen to NI is for every union Jack and tricolour in the place to be burned


Your conclusion only leaves one loser though. Us as per standard. It reads of accept your lot northern nationalists, maybe this is not your intention.
When competing nationalisms divide a society everybody loses

What's your solution?

A functioning society is more important than fwegs


Good man. Fwegs? My solution is lay out how an all island health system would look, how education would look, taxation, housing. How are a minority incorporated and given absolute equality. What fwegs and emblems would look like. Giving those whose culture is orangism and parades etc assurances this can continue in a safe manner. East West copereration. What's yours ? The status quo?
.
My solution is that people in NI vote out the extremists on both sides and elect people who will work together to create an equal society

A united Ireland will come when it's ready to come

And it's not remotely ready to come yet

What will happen is that as the sabre rattling about a border poll ramps up, the extremists on both sides will benefit more and more because both sides will retreat more and more into competing nationalisms

Irish nationalists will retreat towards SF, British nationalists will retreat towards the DUP

The centre, whatever is there of it, will not hold

Vote out the DUP and SF and elect SDLP, Alliance, PBP and moderate Unionists
Sorry Sid, I don't know from where you hail but you are posting facile errant nonsense that shows no understanding of the 6 counties or the experience of nationalists in a hostile state. There is a reason why SF are so popular and it has to do with their effective delivery on the ground for people in need. The SDLP had years of a head start but ignored working class communities. Alliance is built on the highly effective foundation of Naomi Long, and a soft unionism that does not like the DUP or the UUP which is now DUP Lite.

Having said all of that and not to totally forget my lived experience I want to see a civilised conversation that does not harp back to the perceived injustices of the past. Nationalists are capable for doing that, our problem is a rump of unionism that sees any change as sellout.
Not sure if 'Nationalists are capable for doing that', when some posters on here are referring back to the Plantation of Ulster.

2
General discussion / Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
« on: March 31, 2021, 11:57:44 AM »
90% of Nationalists are moderate, but only 5% of Unionists.

Such a mindset would be laughable, were it not reflective of the whole problem.

You know, "The Politics of Themmuns", exhibit No.1 'Angelo'  ::)

Nationalism is intrinsically moderate, as all it wants is a normal democratic country.
Unionism is the opposite of moderate, it wants to extend colonialism, when it couldn't win by force in most of the Ireland, it seized part of the country as a sectarian statelet.

Unionist political parties offer no moderation and many people from a PUL background are drifting to Alliance as a consequence.
Ah right, so "Themmuns" it is, then.

Glad we got that sorted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Mon_restaurant_bombing


I said that nationalism was intrinsicially moderate, I did not say that all those who purported to be nationalists were moderate. RTÉ have been replaying the Reeling in the Years and I noted La Mon, one of the most disgraceful events in Irish history was in that year.
The difference being that 90%+ of nationalists do not justify La Mon.


If I said something that was not correct, then I'm sure you can refute it. I did not refer to "Themmuns" ,

Yet the large majority of Nationalists in NI vote for the party which is inextricably linked with the organisation which carried out La Mon.

And the Enniskillen bombing.

And the nakedly sectarian massacres at Tullyvallen, Darkley and Kingsmill.

And the abduction, torture, murder and disappearing of Jean McConville.

And Patsy Gillespie.

And a thousand other atrocities.

None of which justifies or condones one iota the myriad atrocities committed by their (so-called) "Loyalist" counterparts, but come on, surely you haven't forgotten what the IRA and INLA etc did in the name of Nationalism?

I mean, at a time when SF are falling over themselves to be seen "honouring" mass murderers like Bobby Storey?

I guess "moderate" means something different where you come from.
Great. Another Jamie Bryson.
Did the IRA commit multiple atrocities?
Are SF inextricably linked with, and supportive of, the IRA campaign?
Do the majority of Nationalists vote SF?

You don't need to be Jamie Bryson to ask those questions.

Though maybe you do need his mindset when required to answer them i.e. play the man instead of the ball.

Unless, of course, you're talking about a different Jamie Bryson from the one who got a massive 167 votes in the last election he fought in his own Bangor West backyard? (Equates to 2% of the vote, btw)

Listen, I'm not speaking for the majority of Unionists who vote for the DUP, nor do I condone those who do - I'm proud to say I've never given that mob so much as a 9th preference vote.

But just look at this picture and tell me that one side votes for extremists, while the other votes for moderates:




Them tell me which is which... ::)

Unionists brought the Gun into Irish Politics. I despise violence, but Unionists are not innocent in all of this and even today many Unionists hint at a return to violence. Very similar tactics to what Trump was at. The Unionist community needs to wake up.
Nobody was saying that they were.  The point being discussed was the assertion that Nationalists were intrisically moderate, despite the fairly obvious point that most vote for a party intrically linked to terrorisrt activity and atrocities.

3
General discussion / Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
« on: March 29, 2021, 06:26:04 PM »
The middle ground tends to be interested in facts. Things like standard of living and likely chaos.
And demographics don't change overnight.

Moderate unionism represents about 5% of unionism.

You simply have no idea what you are dealing with.

Do you know many unionist people yourself?  Also, what are you basing your 5% figure on?

The fact that unionists vote en masse for the unashamed sectarianism of TUV/DUP/UUP.

Look at the triumphalism of unionist politics with the Pat Finucane case lately.

To say mainstream Unionist politics is from the gutter is the truth and that type of politics is what Unionists vote for.
TUV vote is negligible and not sure that UUP can be tarred with same brush.  Still not sure where you get your 5% figure from.

4
General discussion / Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
« on: March 29, 2021, 06:04:23 PM »
The middle ground tends to be interested in facts. Things like standard of living and likely chaos.
And demographics don't change overnight.

Moderate unionism represents about 5% of unionism.

You simply have no idea what you are dealing with.

Do you know many unionist people yourself?  Also, what are you basing your 5% figure on?

5
General discussion / Re: The Offical Glasgow Celtic thread
« on: March 27, 2021, 03:56:11 PM »
Keane played in a pretty average EPL. All the best players played in Italy at the time. United continued to dominate the EPL for years after he left.

There is no doubt he was a key player for both United and Ireland but his impact was overstated. Ireland had a very good World Cup after he departed in shame in 2002 and didn't look like they miss. United went on to beat Bayern in the final of the CL when he was there.

Liam Brady had a far more impressive career for me. Keane end up getting humiliated by a mechanic in the Scottish Cup before hanging up his boots.

Angelo, you make some great points, but these are often undermined and you lose credibility by making aggressive controversial statements and backing them up with confirmational  bias. I would also be opposed to Keane being appointed on the basis of his Managerial CV, but controversially questioning his status  as A player undermines your reasonable opinion that he could be disastrous for Celtic. For what it’s worth, With some reservations , I took his side in Saipan and enjoy some of his soundbites but his sneering intolerance of many modern players means that he’s only ever a couple of defeats away from losing the changing room. I liked the way he confronted much of the primadonna nonsense around soccer , but Tbf players generally have a much more professional attitude nowadays. I think the turning point for me were his heartless comments re Jonathan Walters. He’s not the man for Celtic . I’d like to see an Eddie Howe character with a history of getting a team to punch above its weight by getting all the “small gains” right. This is where NL fell down, kudos as a player, but too many weaknesses around coaching, preparation, recovery, recruitment, developing young players , and just expecting players to deliver because if they wear the hooped jersey they should be better than their opponents most of the time. I would fear RK would be more like NL , with his biggest selling point being his kudos as a player and Irishman , whereas EH will be hungrier to earn his kudos and will get all the “small gains” right.

What have I questioned?

Did I say he was rubbish? No.

Did I say he was overrated? Yes.

Did I support that with facts? Yes.

United went onto have great success after Keane left
- Won 5 of the next 7 league titles
- A CL and another CL final appearance

They only went into decline post Ferguson - Keane was dispensable.

Similarly with Ireland. Very impressive World Cup without him. They only really started to decline as the likes of Duff, Robbie Keane, Given, Dunne etc came to the end.

So how good was he? I'd say someone like Rino Gattuso or Edgar Davids or Diego Simeone is a good yardstick for Keane as a player. Gattuso was probably a more complete footballer

Keane was possibly a top 10 midfielder in the world at his very peak. I'd say that's a fair summation of him.

I'm going to give some names here - Pirlo, Vieira, Makelele, Nedved, Rui Costa, Zidane, Redondo, Ballack, Effenberg, Hagi, Seedorf etc

Would he have been notably any better than Scholes, Giggs, Beckham?

How well did these guys fare outside of the United bubble.

I think it's clear now, maybe it wasn't at the time but the only indispensable part of the United journey was Ferguson. You look at how he made guys like Darren Fletcher and Ji Sung Park vita components in a team. I think it's obvious that a lot of these players owe Alex Ferguson for what they achieved in their career rather than the other way around.

I think the only two United players who have probably went on to really prove themselves elsewhere after leaving Ferguson's United were Ronaldo and Van Nistelrooy.

If you look at most of top 11 best players in any poll of the best players in the EPL, Keane makes the team. 7 titles 4 FA cups and CL.. To say Utd went on to win more titles means nothing, course they did what does that have to do with Keane's ability, if you are going for midfielders then go like for like.

He was better than Viera Seedorf Ballack, Effenberg, the others were ballers and technically better on the ball, as for putting Beckham in there, wise up
Seedorf was an absolute smasher.  Saw him play for Inter when he was in his pomp vs Lazio when the world's best were playing in Serie A and he was different gravy watching him live. Won 3 Eurpoean Cups with 3 different teams.  Keane was no way better then him.

6
General discussion / Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
« on: March 27, 2021, 03:51:13 PM »
My idea is a Confederation of 2 "home rule" areas run by slimmed down Dáil and Stormont.
The "Confederacy" to be in charge of major items, foreign affairs etc.
GFA provisions re dual Nationality, passports etc to continue in the 6 Co area.
What's the point then?  Particularly, if as you say, Nationalsists can live with the current situation.

7
General discussion / Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
« on: March 25, 2021, 08:24:21 PM »
Indeed.
A lot of our 6 Co friends still living in 1921.
At least they're 231 years ahead of th'others  :-\
Says the man with the classic ussans and themmans post.

8
General discussion / Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
« on: March 24, 2021, 07:54:52 PM »
So according to this poll, a quarter of GAA people in the south would not vote for a united Ireland.

What the heck is going on?

Perhaps some of the quarter could list 5 clear reasons why not.

Maybe even more surprising is the fact that 7 GAA people in the north voted to stay under British rule.

I would honestly love to know the rationale behind this if anyone wants to confess!?
You’d wonder how they can look themselves in the mirror.
EvilG and Michael are probably 2 of them or are they not allowed to vote being.....
Angelo, Armagh18 and Shooters are likely 3 being of the  of the hate "freestaters(sic)" camp.
The other 2 are having the craic.
Nope, not me (though I assume I would be permitted to vote, if I chose)
Nor me!

9
General discussion / Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
« on: March 23, 2021, 07:34:34 PM »
Does Michael realise other Countries also supported workers and businesses.
Of course.  Simply stating that level of support from UK government was good.

Was it not the least that was expected from them?
Had never considered what might happen in the event of a global pandemic.

10
General discussion / Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
« on: March 23, 2021, 07:23:28 PM »
Does Michael realise other Countries also supported workers and businesses.
Of course.  Simply stating that level of support from UK government was good.

11
General discussion / Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
« on: March 23, 2021, 06:07:41 PM »
I've seen a lot of people saying 'we can't afford the North' but surely on an island our size we'd be better off having an All Ireland economy? Are studies like the following nonsense?

https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/arid-20388959.html
I’m not an economist but surely it stands to reason that after 100 years, most of which has been spent as an economic failure, the move towards an all-island economy can only benefit the North.
Comments like this gloss over the ailing ROI economy for the first 70 odd years of its existence where high unemployment and emigration was widespread.  Coupled with the propensity for a boom and bust style economy, it's maybe not just as straightforward as people think.

No, they don't. Partition imposed a cost, greater for NI than the ROI, and still does. Those dislocations can be ameliorated. The ROI was not very prosperous after independence, but it was not prosperous before independence. The 1930s and 1940s were not great periods in world history for boosting your international trade. The ROI lost a few years at the start of the 1950s, but in the late 1950s they got the show on the road and have progressed relative to NI ever since.
I note how your response chooses to ignore the fact that NI would continue remain as part of the UK, the 6th largest economy in the world.  That may have a bearing in people's decision making when economic factors are being considered.

Are they still the 6th? I thought they had fell back. Britain and Britishness is on the wane. The greatest threat to Unionism isn't actually Irish Nationalism...It's English Nationalism. Brits care not a jot for the precious union. While this Tory government might talk about the Union the reality is that at the very first hard choice it had between the Union and Brexit, it plumped for Brexit and imposed an Irish Sea Border straight over the heads of Unionists wishes. Hard-line Unionists like Bryson and Geoffrey need to start getting this. The conversation has started, it will only end in one spot with a New Ireland. Do they want to help shape that or stand on the sidelines and complain about the outcome? I know which side I would choose.

I should also add that the DUP and their "Britishness" is very far removed from what the everyday English person relates to. Brits are for the most part Liberal in their outlook. They are not the right wing Christian fundamentalists that the DUP for the most part are. Brits look at them and shake their heads.
I that the same 'everyday English person' that voted Brexit?

12
General discussion / Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
« on: March 23, 2021, 06:03:34 PM »
I've seen a lot of people saying 'we can't afford the North' but surely on an island our size we'd be better off having an All Ireland economy? Are studies like the following nonsense?

https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/arid-20388959.html
I’m not an economist but surely it stands to reason that after 100 years, most of which has been spent as an economic failure, the move towards an all-island economy can only benefit the North.
Comments like this gloss over the ailing ROI economy for the first 70 odd years of its existence where high unemployment and emigration was widespread.  Coupled with the propensity for a boom and bust style economy, it's maybe not just as straightforward as people think.

No, they don't. Partition imposed a cost, greater for NI than the ROI, and still does. Those dislocations can be ameliorated. The ROI was not very prosperous after independence, but it was not prosperous before independence. The 1930s and 1940s were not great periods in world history for boosting your international trade. The ROI lost a few years at the start of the 1950s, but in the late 1950s they got the show on the road and have progressed relative to NI ever since.
I note how your response chooses to ignore the fact that NI would continue remain as part of the UK, the 6th largest economy in the world.  That may have a bearing in people's decision making when economic factors are being considered.
What good is being part of the 6th biggest economy if you contribute nothing to it? Why, almost 25 years post GFA is NI still one of the worst-off regions in the UK? What exactly is the benefit of being part of this “6th biggest economy”?

 In reality the UK economy is centred around London and the south east of England - where fiscal decisions are made which benefit the people who live and work there the most. That’s why (as already mentioned) Unionists are expendable and have and will continue to be used by the tories as and when they feel like it. And of course the DUP like good little bootlickers will go back asking for more.
Support to workers and business during recent pandemic and development and roll-out of vaccine spring to mind.

13
General discussion / Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
« on: March 23, 2021, 03:20:27 PM »
I've seen a lot of people saying 'we can't afford the North' but surely on an island our size we'd be better off having an All Ireland economy? Are studies like the following nonsense?

https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/arid-20388959.html
I’m not an economist but surely it stands to reason that after 100 years, most of which has been spent as an economic failure, the move towards an all-island economy can only benefit the North.
Comments like this gloss over the ailing ROI economy for the first 70 odd years of its existence where high unemployment and emigration was widespread.  Coupled with the propensity for a boom and bust style economy, it's maybe not just as straightforward as people think.

No, they don't. Partition imposed a cost, greater for NI than the ROI, and still does. Those dislocations can be ameliorated. The ROI was not very prosperous after independence, but it was not prosperous before independence. The 1930s and 1940s were not great periods in world history for boosting your international trade. The ROI lost a few years at the start of the 1950s, but in the late 1950s they got the show on the road and have progressed relative to NI ever since.
I note how your response chooses to ignore the fact that NI would continue remain as part of the UK, the 6th largest economy in the world.  That may have a bearing in people's decision making when economic factors are being considered.

14
General discussion / Re: HOW WOULD YOU VOTE IN A BORDER POLL?
« on: March 23, 2021, 12:34:02 PM »
I've seen a lot of people saying 'we can't afford the North' but surely on an island our size we'd be better off having an All Ireland economy? Are studies like the following nonsense?

https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/arid-20388959.html
I’m not an economist but surely it stands to reason that after 100 years, most of which has been spent as an economic failure, the move towards an all-island economy can only benefit the North.
Comments like this gloss over the ailing ROI economy for the first 70 odd years of its existence where high unemployment and emigration was widespread.  Coupled with the propensity for a boom and bust style economy, it's maybe not just as straightforward as people think.

15
General discussion / Re: The Offical Glasgow Celtic thread
« on: March 20, 2021, 12:56:52 PM »
Believe it or not there is a Rangers thread on here.

http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=5894.0

This incident has little to do with Celtic. Take the conversation there or start a new thread. Last thing that is needed for such a serious topic is for the usual suspects to derail the thread with their point scoring and whataboutery. The seriousness of the incident will get lost as usual.
It is a serious topic which has nothing to do with whataboutery and nothing to do with Celtic

So it was disappointing to see poster straightred, who I presume is a Celtic supporter, bring whataboutery onto the thread in order to tell us that Glen Kamara should "f**k right off with the victim stuff"
Fair point about the thread that i hadn't thought of. I'll let this be my last word on it.

If proven then what happened is disgusting and the player should be duly punished. However I stand completely over my "bit rich" comment. A week ago Kamara was dancing along while mocking Celtic with the bigoted playbook. Now the shoe is on the other foot and he doesn't like it. He should reflect on own behaviour. I'll leave it at that.
Whay was Kamara singing along to?

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