Prison Sentences

Started by nrico2006, December 30, 2018, 07:32:12 PM

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nrico2006

I see Rose West is launching an appeal against her 'life means life' sentence. A few have been overturned before and given the judicial system we have, it wouldn't surprise me if she was victorious. How do we have/accept a society where most murderers eventually get their freedom, with the average sentence probably in and around 14 years. How is it bot as simple as murder equals jail until you die?
'To the extreme I rock a mic like a vandal, light up a stage and wax a chump like a candle.'

BennyCake

Because it costs too much to keep them in

Milltown Row2

Quote from: BennyCake on December 30, 2018, 07:49:23 PM
Because it costs too much to keep them in

Always felt that was the case! The judicial system in America must cost billions
None of us are getting out of here alive, so please stop treating yourself like an after thought. Ea

David McKeown

I wouldn't be so sure since the Hutchinson decision of the European Court it's become clear that whole life sentences are lawful provided they are subject to review and to the possibility of release in certain circumstances. I would think it would be difficult to get released unless under a very specific set of circumstances. That said I suppose an argument could be made that if you were no longer assessed as Dangerous (I.e posed a significant risk to life or limb) then you might be discriminated against vis a vis a life sentence prisoner with a tariff. Two issues though would arise with that. Firstly Rose would have to show she is no longer dangerous which is very difficult in the prison environment for someone with her record. Secondly even if she has been discriminated against that discrimination may be justified given her record. All in all I would think this would be a very difficult challenge for her to win.
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playwiththewind1st

There are so many different penalties available...tagging; slap on the wrist; probation - oh dear,  you had a hard upbringing; you didn't mean it; suspended sentence; community service. Nobody deserves a life sentence...even for murder.  It's just unfair & infringes upon the perpetrator's rights.

Minder

I know one thing - it's complex !
"When it's too tough for them, it's just right for us"

David McKeown

Quote from: playwiththewind1st on December 30, 2018, 08:49:29 PM
There are so many different penalties available...tagging; slap on the wrist; probation - oh dear,  you had a hard upbringing; you didn't mean it; suspended sentence; community service. Nobody deserves a life sentence...even for murder.  It's just unfair & infringes upon the perpetrator's rights.

I think it really depends on what you are looking for in any sentence. There are five competiting aims really in any sentence. 1. Punishment, any sentence has to be some form of punishment for the crime. 2. Rehabilitation, sentences particularly lengthy custodial ones have to seek to rehabilitate the offender back into the community other wise they are likely to find themselves in a rolving door system which does no one any good. 3. Reduce recidivism, linked to rehabilitation is a need to reduce reoffending both for the benefit of the community and for the individuals future prospect. 4. Protection for the public. Ultimately sentences particularly for more serious offences need to protect the public from certain perpetrators. 5. Detterance, sentences need to act as a deterrent to others.

In the north sentences range from absolute discharges to life imprisonment each with their own advantages and disadvantages when considered against those four criteria. For example probation is very good at rehabilitation and reducing recidivism but not as punishing as prison or as good for protection of the public or acting as a deterrent. Similarly short custodial sentences are great as punishment etc but provide little rehabilitation or reduction in recidivism.

When faced with a sentencing exercise a judge has to consider and balance these competiting considerations when arriving at the appropriate sentence.

What drives me mad is how badly reported sentences are the media. For example anyone convicted of murder receives a life sentence with a tariff. The tariff is the minimum sentence to be spent in prison before the individual can APPLY FOR PAROLE. It is not as is commonly reported the length of the sentence. Even in the unlikely event the life sentence prisoner is able to convince the Parole Commissioners that they are no longer dangerous (the test for release) at the end of that tariff they will still remain subject to licence conditions for life and can be recalled without a hearing if the Department of Justice adjudges their risk of serious harm is unmanageable in the community.
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playwiththewind1st

Quote from: nrico2006 on December 30, 2018, 07:32:12 PM
I see Rose West is launching an appeal against her 'life means life' sentence. A few have been overturned before and given the judicial system we have, it wouldn't surprise me if she was victorious. How do we have/accept a society where most murderers eventually get their freedom, with the average sentence probably in and around 14 years. How is it bot as simple as murder equals jail until you die?

It comes back every year, at this time.  The Sun on Fred West -"happy noose year".

nrico2006

I read somewhere last week that a fella who raped a wee boy and girl was released after 3 weeks, of a year sentence, as he was too vulnerable. One year is far too lenient but 3 weeks is as bad a punishment as I've heard. As for murder, in the simplest terms you should never be released surely? The punishment should be life and thats still a far better fate than the murder victim got. Too much of the sentences are focused on rehabilitation (no longer a danger to society etc etc), but the main objective of a sentence should be to punish.
'To the extreme I rock a mic like a vandal, light up a stage and wax a chump like a candle.'

David McKeown

Quote from: nrico2006 on December 30, 2018, 10:13:12 PM
I read somewhere last week that a fella who raped a wee boy and girl was released after 3 weeks, of a year sentence, as he was too vulnerable. One year is far too lenient but 3 weeks is as bad a punishment as I've heard. As for murder, in the simplest terms you should never be released surely? The punishment should be life and thats still a far better fate than the murder victim got. Too much of the sentences are focused on rehabilitation (no longer a danger to society etc etc), but the main objective of a sentence should be to punish.

The problem with that though is there's no incentive for the offender to engage at all which in turn would make prisons much more dangerous and difficult to manage. As I say it's a balancing exercise and a difficult one at that.
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Insane Bolt

I don't see any deterrent.....bar conjugal rights what does a prisoner not have? They have access to medical/dental treatment, education, gyms, tv, mobile phones, 3 meals a day, no worries about heat....many pensioners/people don't have that. Some deterrent 😡

Rossfan

Can't go out for a pint, can't go home at night, can't go to Limerick or Dublin games...
Davy's given us a dream to cling to
We're going to bring home the SAM

nrico2006

Quote from: David McKeown on December 30, 2018, 10:22:42 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on December 30, 2018, 10:13:12 PM
I read somewhere last week that a fella who raped a wee boy and girl was released after 3 weeks, of a year sentence, as he was too vulnerable. One year is far too lenient but 3 weeks is as bad a punishment as I've heard. As for murder, in the simplest terms you should never be released surely? The punishment should be life and thats still a far better fate than the murder victim got. Too much of the sentences are focused on rehabilitation (no longer a danger to society etc etc), but the main objective of a sentence should be to punish.

The problem with that though is there's no incentive for the offender to engage at all which in turn would make prisons much more dangerous and difficult to manage. As I say it's a balancing exercise and a difficult one at that.
But surely there being no incentive to engage and therefore having prisons that are difficult to manage shouldnt be a reason not to put murderers away until they die. Why even call a sentence a life sentence when its really a lock of years.
'To the extreme I rock a mic like a vandal, light up a stage and wax a chump like a candle.'

brokencrossbar1

Sentencing is a very contentious thing among people who don't know what it is like. A lot of prisoners that I deal with are in 23 hour lock up in a cell 3.5m by 2m were they had to until recently 'slop out'  and piss and shit in a pot. It's not much better now. Diseases like Hepatitis, TB and HIV are very prevalent.  Beatings, stabbing sand suicide attempts are very high. The level of sexual abuse within prisons is increasing and the physical abuse by staff is still an issue at times. Despite what some think it is not a holiday camp and there is a limited level of rehabilitation. More work needs to be done with younger offenders to improve the restorative justice programs and education programs but the likes of the youth justice agency etc are consistently having their funding cut in the north and the youth justice service in the south. The majority of crime is caused as a result of inter generational poverty and abuse and a lack of proper education. There needs to be more done at youth court level to pull young kids out of this system but it's not happening.

playwiththewind1st

#14
When you see teachers complaining that kids are being sent to school not even having been toilet trained, then it's difficult to see how that type of 'parent' will be able to hand on the ability to distinguish right from wrong. Recidivism is probably in the gene pool nowadays.