The OFFICIAL Liverpool Supporters thread

[Hoof Hearted]

I hope people dont use Keane not getting on as a smokescreen. The players that were on the pitch should be able to beat hull. We just are not good enough to maintain a title challenge over 38 games. I am starting to look to the away games as more likely to get a win. They dont seem capable of beating anyone at home.

everyone has been saying that since 1990, not earth shattering news there.

[J70]

J70 i think that Chelsea and United have more capacity to go on a long (winning not drawing) unbeaten run in part due to larger and better quality squads. We cant keep hoping United and Chelsea continue to drop points as it wont happen indefinetly. We need to address our own shortcomings. Another factor in Uniteds favour is they have had a far harder programme of games and are within striking distance. The only thing that may make them falter is the fixture pile up they will face after the World Club Cup. Players like Beanyoun are playing far too many games for Liverpool to mount a sustained challenge. Babel must be the worlds worst trainer and have a stinkin attitude as whatever he is doing during the week at Melwood obviously isnt impressing Rafa. Overly pessimistic? Maybe.....

Yes, but didn't Liverpool play very impressively from the beginning of February through to the end of the season last year, the Mascherano-aided no-show at Old Trafford excepted? The damage to Liverpool was done last year because the United and Arsenal charged ahead before Christmas when Liverpool were struggling, which has not happened this time around. And after next week, Liverpool will have quite a few of their toughest away fixtures out of the way as well, with trips to Chelsea, Arsenal, Everton, Bolton, Blackburn (those two are normally tough for anyone), Spurs and Villa all completed, with only one defeat and one draw before the Arsenal game. I accept that Liverpool's overall resources are poorer, but that does not mean that they are out of it.

[stevo-08]

Yes, but didn't Liverpool play very impressively from the beginning of February through to the end of the season last year, the Mascherano-aided no-show at Old Trafford excepted? The damage to Liverpool was done last year because the United and Arsenal charged ahead before Christmas when Liverpool were struggling, which has not happened this time around. And after next week, Liverpool will have quite a few of their toughest away fixtures out of the way as well, with trips to Chelsea, Arsenal, Everton, Bolton, Blackburn (those two are normally tough for anyone), Spurs and Villa all completed, with only one defeat and one draw before the Arsenal game. I accept that Liverpool's overall resources are poorer, but that does not mean that they are out of it.

You can add the trip to man city to that list.

I'd agree with the thrust of what you're saying J70, this season is definitely seeing a much more competitive league with the top teams dropping far more points that previously. Liverpool have been very disappointing lately, especially at home, and the run of draws is a very worring trend. However, I think the points total required to win the league this year will be alot lower than in previous years (I think 85 points could win the league this year) and that will suit Liverpool, who just arent capable of reaching the dizzy heights set by chelsea/united in previous seasons. Also, while everyone is saying that man united & chelsea have yet to get into top gear, I think the same can be said about Liverpool - they might be top of the league but there's certainly another gear in them, especially if Torres can get himself fit and come into form. So while, it's been frustrating to see so many dropped points lately, all is not lost yet.

On the keane situation, I couldnt believe he spent the entire game on the bench, doesnt bode well at all. I think when Rafa bought keane, he was sure that barry would also come into the side and alonso would depart. That would have allowed Rafa to play a 4 man midfield of kuyt, gerrard, masch & barry with torres & keane up front. But Barry never came and Alonso has been Liverpool's best player all season which has given Rafa a problem in trying to fit keane, gerrard & torres into the team. I still think keane has a lot to offer, but not when playing as a lone striker. Would like to see torres & keane get a run of matches together and see what they can do - could drop gerrard into CM or Right Wing if he wants.

Anyway, a trip to the emirates next week and funnily enough i'm more confident of getting 3 points there than the home game against Bolton the following week...

[Hound]

Benitez's attitude has reverted to type in the last few weeks, and that has coincided with the clutch of draws.

At the beginning of the season Benitez correctly said there were too many draws last year which were very costly. So when we were drawing games earlier in the season he threw caution to the wind, encouraged attacking play and even took off midifielders and defenders to get more attackers on, and it paid off in spades with plenty of late wins.

Then it backfired against Spurs, when playing really well, but the 2nd goal couldnt get in, conceded two late goals, and now you hear Benitez talking about "a point gained". Not losing is again more important than winning. Fact of the matter is Liverpool should have 6 extra points from those 3 recent draws, and attitude of the manager permeating down to the players played a big part. Leaving your striker on the bench v Hull for the full 90 minutes was just unbelievable. And then the excuse as to why only a draw: "The game was too open" was hugely disappointing. A team like Hull wanting to have an open game against Liverpool should be exactly what a Livepool manager wants.

ManUtd and Chelsea (so far) arent a patch on what they were last year, and hence Liverpool are right up there in strong contention. But we really havent taken full advantage of the chance they've given us and we know they will both kick on eventually.

[stevo-08]

Not too sure about all that Hound.

Since the defeat to Spurs, we have won 3 and drawn 3 in the PL. In the draw with Fulham, benitez started with keane & torres up front and when we were chasing the goal, he brought on alonso & el zhar for Masch & Kuyt. Against west ham, he again started with 2 up front, this time Keane & Kuyt. You cant say it was Benitez's attitude that was to blame for those results. That said, I honestly dont know what the f**k he was at on saturday, leaving our only striker on the bench for 90mins.

Teams like Stoke, West Ham & Fulham will come to anfield and defend for the entire game looking for the draw. In these games, it's essential we have a fully fit and in form Torres to stretch teams and nick a goal. Unfortunately, Torres hasnt been either fit or in-form this season. And if that doesnt change, then we can kiss goodbye to any chance of a title challenge. Torres & Gerrard have started together in only 5 PL games this season. And Liverpool simply cant afford to continue like that.

[corn02]

  Dirk has the touch of a serial rapist and his second touch is a tackle - just not good enough i'm afraid for a team with title winning ambitions.

Sorry mate but for me that is just bollicks. He had a mare of a second half yesterday and should have been replaced, but he played a big role in the two goals. Alsom, he has arguably been the player of the season for us, so to make that assumption on one poor performance is knee-jerk.

[AZOffaly]

Corn, I have the same opinion on Kuyt, as Armamike, and it is far from being based on one performance. If Rafa plays him as a wide player, then it's pointless unless it's against the top teams where he essentially becomes an auxiliary right back. His work rate and dedication is great.

When LFC are playing anyone other than that, he either needs to be a second striker, or on the bench. He has almost 0 creativity, is not going to get behind any full back, and is not a good man to hold on to possession as a move develops. His passing is woeful, and his control is awful for a professional footballer. Momo Sissoko and himself could have a 'long touch' competition.

I have good time for Kuyt, as a worker and as a lad who can pop up with vital goals. But when you are trying to break a team down, especially at Anfield, he ain't the answer. Or if he is, it's to the wrong question.

[corn02]

Corn, I have the same opinion on Kuyt, as Armamike, and it is far from being based on one performance. If Rafa plays him as a wide player, then it's pointless unless it's against the top teams where he essentially becomes an auxiliary right back. His work rate and dedication is great.

When LFC are playing anyone other than that, he either needs to be a second striker, or on the bench. He has almost 0 creativity, is not going to get behind any full back, and is not a good man to hold on to possession as a move develops. His passing is woeful, and his control is awful for a professional footballer. Momo Sissoko and himself could have a 'long touch' competition.

I have good time for Kuyt, as a worker and as a lad who can pop up with vital goals. But when you are trying to break a team down, especially at Anfield, he ain't the answer. Or if he is, it's to the wrong question.

His goal tally argue differently. His form has been excellent this season. He has played the lone striker role twice this season. He was involved in two goals on Saturday and was a great outlet against Blackburn. Only Alonso, Gerrard and Reina can claim to be closer to player of the year so far. His runs are intelligent and he is one of the main reasons why Arbeloa is prosperiong. No one is going to argue that his touch is woeful, but hew has been a key cog in our march to top spot.

[AZOffaly]

That's what I'm saying, if he is a striker, I can live with that. I will not be convinced, however, that he is the sort of creative right sided player that will open up teams who come to defend. Arbeloa is not a good enough attacking player to justify having a workhorse playing in front of him to give him freedom.

So I would definitely not say his form has been excellent, far from it. I would say he has chipped in with vital goals, no doubt, but maybe if a better player was wide right, we wouldn't be sweating on vital goals. He's the black hole for too many moves when he's on the right.

[stevo-08]

AZOffaly, so who would you play on the right ahead of Kuyt? I am not his biggest fan and agree he has a very poor touch, but I'd have him on the team ahead of Benny/Pennant anyday. You could maybe argue that babel should be given a run on the right but again he hasnt been too convincing either.

Hard to believe that Reina, Arbeloa, Carragher & Kuyt have been the only 4 liverpool players to start every single PL game this season.

[corn02]

That's what I'm saying, if he is a striker, I can live with that. I will not be convinced, however, that he is the sort of creative right sided player that will open up teams who come to defend. Arbeloa is not a good enough attacking player to justify having a workhorse playing in front of him to give him freedom.

So I would definitely not say his form has been excellent, far from it. I would say he has chipped in with vital goals, no doubt, but maybe if a better player was wide right, we wouldn't be sweating on vital goals. He's the black hole for too many moves when he's on the right.

He has had a great start to the season, to say he has been far from excellent is wrong. I actually think his best work comes on the right. He done it against Bolton, Spurs etc who were heavily defending at the time. Arbeloa prosperrs with Kuyt in front of him. He has more freedom to attack because Kuyt will cover him defnesively probably better than any other winger in the Premiership. Arbeloas delivery has improved ten-fold as of late and it is mostly down to Kuyt withdrawing defenders. Sometime it doesn't come across on tv, but if your in the Anny Road or the Kop you can see firsat hand how intelligent Kutys' runs are how much space they create. Obviously, it would be better if it was Kuyt who was attacking this space, but, as you rightly point out, he doesn't have that ability. Despite this he plays a massive, massive role in that team. It is only when he is out injured that you will appreciate it.

[AZOffaly]

We'll have to agree to disagree so. I made a comment that if Kuyt plays more than 20 PL games, Liverpool will not win the League, and I stand by that.

As for the alternative to him, I think that at Anfield, against teams like Fulham, Stoke, Hull, etc etc etc, I'd be playing a 4-4-2 with Alonso and Masch in midfield, Gerrard on the Right and Reira on left. I'd play two of Kuyt/Torres/Keane up front.

In an ideal world, I'd buy a winger, like I was hoping for in the summer, and play that winger on the right, with Alonso/Masch playing with Gerrard in the middle, and again, Kuyt/Keane or Torres up front.

I'm going to conduc a scientific study over Christmas when I'm pigging out in front of the telly, and chart how many moves break down when they reach Kuyt, either due to a first touch that would get him bollocked out of it in the Phoenix Park, or from ridiculous passes going astray. I'd bet that there will be at least 15-20 of these in whatever game I choose.

I like the guy's work ethic, and I love the important goals he has scored, but I just cannot buy that he is an integral, every week starter on a team trying to win the league.

Also, please don't patronise me about being in the Anny Road end. I've watched enough soccer in my time to see things like that, and if we had Patrice Evra or someone coming forward, I could buy that argument of Kuyt essentially being a decoy. But we don't. Arbeloa is no marauding full back. He is at his best man marking people like Ronaldo, Messi etc. Kuyt should be the attacking force there.

[corn02]

Also, please don't patronise me about being in the Anny Road end. I've watched enough soccer in my time to see things like that, and if we had Patrice Evra or someone coming forward, I could buy that argument of Kuyt essentially being a decoy. But we don't. Arbeloa is no marauding full back. He is at his best man marking people like Ronaldo, Messi etc. Kuyt should be the attacking force there.

Care to point out what was patronising then?

If you can't admire Arbeloas increasing attack efficency you may study that as well at Christmas. There has been a significant increase in his attacking forrays and his delivery has improved massively.

[AZOffaly]

Sometime it doesn't come across on tv, but if your in the Anny Road or the Kop you can see firsat hand how intelligent Kutys' runs are how much space they create.

I read that as patronising. If it wasn't then apologies.

As for Arbeloa, how many assists has he got this year? I don't believe he has improved to a level that warrants playing a decoy right winger to allow him bomb up and down the line. He's obviously come on a good bit, but to suggest he is some sort of immense creative outlet is not true, in my opinion. I think some of the results speak for themselves in that respect.

[Fermanaghandsam]

Kuyt is a solid squad player, but no more than that. However at present he is prob our best option on the right side. For us to go on and win the title we badly need to buy a right winger. I would actully like to see Babel getting an exended run on the right wing from now to xmas, to see if he has what it takes. The team I would like Liverpool to play, esp at home

Riena
Arbeloa, Car, Agger, Aurelio
Babel, Alonso, Gerrard, Reira
Keane
Torres

Will Agger go in Jan, with hyypia getting on in front of him, I worry he will go??