Clerical abuse!

[Evil Genius]

There are evil people everywhere, in every institution. It is saddening and shocking that so many of them hid within the ranks of the Catholic Church and took advantage of the Church's status in society.

No doubt.

I will continue to look to the Church as the moral authority. My understanding of what Church is may be different than yours.

Surely the problem with that is that this scandal is no longer a case of individuals  within an institution behaving atrociously?

Rather, as the Cloyne Report clearly demonstrates, it is that that institution, through all its offices, orders and highest officials, at every level including right to the very top, willingly and knowingly colluded with the aforementioned individuals, over decades and throughout the world, so that those individuals were able to rape, bugger and otherwise abuse countless thousands of children and their families.
Indeed, so widespread was this abuse, and so willing was the institution to wield its formidable power in defence of its image and reputation etc, that whole communities and societies, nation states even, were horribly corrupted and distorted.

Martin Luther finally concluded that "Enough is Enough" at the sight of the Church selling "Indulgences" out of self-interest, yet you seem prepared to countenance the same Church when it colludes in the rape of children, again out of self-interest, then denies what it has done, even when presented with damning (literally!) evidence.

What might it take for you finally to say "Enough!", or is there nothing the Church could do to make you think again?

P.S. The thought occurs that you may be unable to accept the example of (the heretic) Luther as a fit analogy; therefore you might consider instead the Cleansing of the Temple by Jesus, when he took a whip (literally) to those officers of the Church who had defiled it (Matthew 21:12-13)

I don't mind your reference to Luther. I have a fair understanding of his intent and what he stood for and the escalation from discontent to reformation. I think this is something different. Does everyone just break away and start another Church? And then if there is something we don't like, start another and another until we have 100 more denominations and even more places for things to go wrong?
If enough is enough then what next?

I am a big fan of fixing what is broken. Not abandoning and looking for another ship.

To answer your question (bold), I would normally say "No".

But I do not see the "Moneychangers" being "whipped out of the Temple", nor any sign of it - quite the contrary, in fact, since the Popes/Cardinals/Archbishops/Bishops etc who have colluded in child rape for decades, clearly seem to see themselves as being as strongly in control of the Church as ever. Indeed, they continue to argue that they are  the Church.

Therefore if you and your fellow adherents cannot or will not do whatever it takes* to drive them out, then imo you are just as surely collding in crime as they.

* - I do not consider your verbal condemnation, no matter how unequivocal, to be adequate to exculpate you from the charge of collusion, since it is clearly having zero impact on the "bad apples" who continue to run the institution.

[The Iceman]

EG there has been mention already for the need for discussion, cool heads and time.
There cannot be a knee jerk reaction - it is near impossible.

Jesus may have cleared the temple but he also appointed a man who betrayed him as the Head of the Church (Peter).

[theskull1]

EG there has been mention already for the need for discussion, cool heads and time.
There cannot be a knee jerk reaction - it is near impossible.

Jesus may have cleared the temple but he also appointed a man who betrayed him as the Head of the Church (Peter).

Iceman...you know that is coded language for "I intend to sit it out and do F all and we'll see how it pans out"

[Eamonnca1]

Eamonn there have been plenty of insults and jibes. You have made your point clear so why even continue to contribute to the conversation?

That's a bit of an odd thing to say. You've made your point clear too, so why do you continue to contribute to the conversation?

I think most people are in agreement that there needs to be reform and most people recognize that the majority of those contributing to this conversation/debate will not be part of that reform.
You want all religion dead and buried. Good for you. Now slither on.

Charming.

[Hardy]

A woman read a letter on Liveline today (I know, but this one made sense). It was from her twin sister in New York. They had been born in a Magdalene laundry and taken from their mother (without warning) after seven weeks of breastfeeding. Their mother never saw them again, or knew where they had been taken, until they were 23 years old and went looking for her. Among other things, the letter said the following (in paraphrase):

I'm fed up hearing about the good priests and religious. Good people don't remain members of an institution that harbours child molesters, kept slaves, kidnapped children from their mothers and still obstructs investigation of these crimes. There are many secular charitable organisations in which good people can realise their vocations to do good for their fellow man, rather than compromise their integrity by retaining their membership of a corrupt organisation.

I thought it was an interesting perspective on the debate we're having here.

[Maguire01]

EG there has been mention already for the need for discussion, cool heads and time.
There cannot be a knee jerk reaction - it is near impossible.

Why is there a need for time? Why wait?

[The Iceman]

EG there has been mention already for the need for discussion, cool heads and time.
There cannot be a knee jerk reaction - it is near impossible.

Jesus may have cleared the temple but he also appointed a man who betrayed him as the Head of the Church (Peter).

Iceman...you know that is coded language for "I intend to sit it out and do F all and we'll see how it pans out"

as opposed to stirring shit on gaa message boards and doing F all yourself? Skull you've been the same from you joined the board - a young crow.
Full of shit

[mylestheslasher]

A woman read a letter on Liveline today (I know, but this one made sense). It was from her twin sister in New York. They had been born in a Magdalene laundry and taken from their mother (without warning) after seven weeks of breastfeeding. Their mother never saw them again, or knew where they had been taken, until they were 23 years old and went looking for her. Among other things, the letter said the following (in paraphrase):

I'm fed up hearing about the good priests and religious. Good people don't remain members of an institution that harbours child molesters, kept slaves,       kidnapped children from their mothers and still obstructs investigation of these crimes. There are many secular charitable organisations in which good people can realise their vocations to do good for their fellow man, rather than compromise their integrity by retaining their membership of a corrupt organisation.

I thought it was an interesting perspective on the debate we're having here.

It is a carbon copy of what I've been saying on here for a long time.

[Eamonnca1]

as opposed to stirring shit on gaa message boards and doing F all yourself? Skull you've been the same from you joined the board - a young crow.
Full of shit

Charming. You must have missed the Sermon on the Mount.

[The Iceman]

Never claimed to be perfect or the next Jesus.
Just because I try to walk the path doesn't mean I am not able to step off now and again.

But then you "morally straight and guided by your own compass" boys can choose to do whatever you want because "you're not really hurting anyone"

Get used to the heat Eamonn......

[orangeman]

Surely Sean Brady should see that it's time for him as leader of the church in Ireland to admit at least to himself if not the public that he as much as anyone involved in this scandal, has been a large part of the massive cover up of child abuse for decades and that the future of the church in Ireland would be better served by allowing someone else to take over the reins and allow a new man to take control and lead the church to a renewal ?.

But given his appalling record of defending those who were up to their necks in abuse, this is unlikely to happen.

The same should apply to Sean Brady's counterparts in every diocese throughout Ireland and indeed the whole world.

New leaders should be appointed and the old boys who were complicit should be kicked out and exposed. As long as Sean Brady and men like him remain in power, the church will never undergo the change that is necessary to ensure its future well being.

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

Never claimed to be perfect or the next Jesus.
Just because I try to walk the path doesn't mean I am not able to step off now and again.

But then you "morally straight and guided by your own compass" boys can choose to do whatever you want because "you're not really hurting anyone"

Get used to the heat Eamonn......

Are You using your hell to threaten Eamonn are ya?   

We are not afraid of superstition or your imaginary friends.

[Eamonnca1]

Never claimed to be perfect or the next Jesus.
Just because I try to walk the path doesn't mean I am not able to step off now and again.

But then you "morally straight and guided by your own compass" boys can choose to do whatever you want because "you're not really hurting anyone"

Get used to the heat Eamonn......

Are You using your hell to threaten Eamonn are ya?   

We are not afraid of superstition or your imaginary friends.

HAHA! Quality!

[Maguire01]

Surely Sean Brady should see that it's time for him as leader of the church in Ireland to admit at least to himself if not the public that he as much as anyone involved in this scandal, has been a large part of the massive cover up of child abuse for decades and that the future of the church in Ireland would be better served by allowing someone else to take over the reins and allow a new man to take control and lead the church to a renewal ?.

But given his appalling record of defending those who were up to their necks in abuse, this is unlikely to happen.

The same should apply to Sean Brady's counterparts in every diocese throughout Ireland and indeed the whole world.

New leaders should be appointed and the old boys who were complicit should be kicked out and exposed. As long as Sean Brady and men like him remain in power, the church will never undergo the change that is necessary to ensure its future well being.

The problem for the church is that there are no new boys to take over.

[Maguire01]

But then you "morally straight and guided by your own compass" boys can choose to do whatever you want because "you're not really hurting anyone"

Just to be clear, who's hurting who?