Clerical abuse!

[muppet]

Those arguing for the Church need to think about their argument.

They are attacking people who used to go to Catholics schools with them, went to mass with them and received the sacraments with them. They are trying to paint them as rabid anti-Catholics. These are descendants of people who refused food while starving during the famine because it required becoming a jumper (to Protestantism).

The Church leadership would need to wake up very quickly or it will be consigned to history in this country.

[Eamonnca1]

If for instance there were 1000 priests guilty of said crimes in ireland and that's probably quite generous, then add to that the bishops and cardinals
up through the echelons in the Vatican to the pope himself who were aware of it...does that mean that the Catholic church as a whole and
the good it does around the world should be abolished 

For the sheer size of the Church the world over yes I'd consider those rotten apples...and that includes the Pope
Clearly anything other than debating the punishment for those involved for these terrible crimes is insulting to me and others !

Try not to take it personally then.

I'm making two arguments. 

1 - For the crimes against humanity committed by the organisation, it should be banished from all state institutions, deprived of any state support in any of its endeavours, have all of its trappings and cosy little perks taken out of state broadcasting (Angelus, televised Mass), the criminals should be held to account and justice should be served both in criminal law (rapists and torturers imprisoned along with those who colluded with them, supported them, assisted them and covered their tracks) and in civil law (compensation for any survivors).

2 - As with all religions it has outlived its usefulness and is not a suitable basis for social cohesion.  Belief in the invisible man in the sky is not necessary to live a good life.  Religion has such a negative influence in this world that the sooner people wake up to its folly the better. FYI I don't favour forcibly outlawing religion or supressing it, because unfortunately that has a bad habit of making it even stronger. Better to let it wither on the vine as people become better educated.

[Eamonnca1]

Those arguing for the Church need to think about their argument.

They are attacking people who used to go to Catholics schools with them, went to mass with them and received the sacraments with them. They are trying to paint them as rabid anti-Catholics. These are descendants of people who refused food while starving during the famine because it required becoming a jumper (to Protestantism).

The Church leadership would need to wake up very quickly or it will be consigned to history in this country.

I sat through many's a mass myself.

I also find it interesting that catholics who feel strongly about their belief system are described as "devout".  Atheists or anyone favouring a secular society are often described as 'rabid' or 'militant'.

[Tyrones own]

Those arguing for the Church need to think about their argument.

They are attacking people who used to go to Catholics schools with them, went to mass with them and received the sacraments with them. They are trying to paint them as rabid anti-Catholics. These are descendants of people who refused food while starving during the famine because it required becoming a jumper (to Protestantism).

The Church leadership would need to wake up very quickly or it will be consigned to history in this country.

I don't need to paint anybody as anything, they're doing quite the
job of it on their own.
Its actually the few of us here that still hang on to the bit of faith
we were brought up with that are being attacked and ridiculed
at every turn 

[Tubberman]

Those arguing for the Church need to think about their argument.

They are attacking people who used to go to Catholics schools with them, went to mass with them and received the sacraments with them. They are trying to paint them as rabid anti-Catholics. These are descendants of people who refused food while starving during the famine because it required becoming a jumper (to Protestantism).

The Church leadership would need to wake up very quickly or it will be consigned to history in this country.

I don't need to paint anybody as anything, they're doing quite the
job of it on their own.
Its actually the few of us here that still hang on to the bit of faith
we were brought up with that are being attacked and ridiculed
at every turn 

There's nothing wrong with having faith in a God - that's entirely your own business.
But the Catholic Church organisation is entirely different. They are beyond all defence in my opinion. It is a rotten institution - at it's core and from the top down. I wish it would crumble and be done with forever.
A smaller, more democratic and open 'Irish Catholic Church' could replace it in this country for those who would still like to practic as a Catholic (and something similar in other countries worldwide). That Church would be free from the evils of the current Church, and could attempt to reclaim some moral authority.
I don't see why Catholics here in Ireland or in any other country should take their guidance from out-of-touch, bureaucratic, elderly, power-hungry administrators in Rome who shield paedophiles and obstruct civil law in other countries in order to protect the power and wealth that they have. 

[Groucho]

When the Pope sells one of the many paintings in the Vatican and gives the proceeds to the poor/starving in Africa........
then people might believe that they practice what they preach.......I'll not hold my breath.

 

[theskull1]

Those arguing for the Church need to think about their argument.

They are attacking people who used to go to Catholics schools with them, went to mass with them and received the sacraments with them. They are trying to paint them as rabid anti-Catholics. These are descendants of people who refused food while starving during the famine because it required becoming a jumper (to Protestantism).

The Church leadership would need to wake up very quickly or it will be consigned to history in this country.

I don't need to paint anybody as anything, they're doing quite the
job of it on their own.
Its actually the few of us here that still hang on to the bit of faith
we were brought up with that are being attacked and ridiculed
at every turn 

There's nothing wrong with having faith in a God - that's entirely your own business.
But the Catholic Church organisation is entirely different. They are beyond all defence in my opinion. It is a rotten institution - at it's core and from the top down. I wish it would crumble and be done with forever.
A smaller, more democratic and open 'Irish Catholic Church' could replace it in this country for those who would still like to practic as a Catholic (and something similar in other countries worldwide). That Church would be free from the evils of the current Church, and could attempt to reclaim some moral authority.
I don't see why Catholics here in Ireland or in any other country should take their guidance from out-of-touch, bureaucratic, elderly, power-hungry administrators in Rome who shield paedophiles and obstruct civil law in other countries in order to protect the power and wealth that they have.

If faith mean't that much to folk then I like you would expect there to be a some form of militant/anti establishment catholicism rising up but it isn't. Simple truth is down to the fact that too many who like to consider themselves as devout catholics are sheep.

On Eamonnca's point...if the GAA administration up to the highest levels protected numerous child abusers, silenced victims and subsequently thwarted their attempts for proper juctice, my relationship with the GAA as an institution would be over. I would expect other right thinking members to do the same and get that institutuion to crumble to the ground before new beginnings could be created. Can some of the devout point out to me why that would be the wrong thing to do?

[muppet]

If you look back over the thread you can see the different stages of grief well represented here:

Denial:
Anger:
Bargaining:
Depression:
Acceptance:

Most posters can quickly be put into one of the above, mainly the first 2 or 3. That suggests our discussion is along more predictable lines that people here think.

[The Iceman]

Eamonn there have been plenty of insults and jibes. You have made your point clear so why even continue to contribute to the conversation?
I think most people are in agreement that there needs to be reform and most people recognize that the majority of those contributing to this conversation/debate will not be part of that reform.
You want all religion dead and buried. Good for you. Now slither on.

[muppet]

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2011/0722/1224301127607.html

Fr Thomas Patrick Doyle OP, a US Dominican priest with a doctorate in canon law, is a renowned and outspoken advocate for church abuse victims

Good article.

[Evil Genius]

There are evil people everywhere, in every institution. It is saddening and shocking that so many of them hid within the ranks of the Catholic Church and took advantage of the Church's status in society.

No doubt.

I will continue to look to the Church as the moral authority. My understanding of what Church is may be different than yours.

Surely the problem with that is that this scandal is no longer a case of individuals  within an institution behaving atrociously?

Rather, as the Cloyne Report clearly demonstrates, it is that that institution, through all its offices, orders and highest officials, at every level including right to the very top, willingly and knowingly colluded with the aforementioned individuals, over decades and throughout the world, so that those individuals were able to rape, bugger and otherwise abuse countless thousands of children and their families.
Indeed, so widespread was this abuse, and so willing was the institution to wield its formidable power in defence of its image and reputation etc, that whole communities and societies, nation states even, were horribly corrupted and distorted.

Martin Luther finally concluded that "Enough is Enough" at the sight of the Church selling "Indulgences" out of self-interest, yet you seem prepared to countenance the same Church when it colludes in the rape of children, again out of self-interest, then denies what it has done, even when presented with damning (literally!) evidence.

What might it take for you finally to say "Enough!", or is there nothing the Church could do to make you think again?

P.S. The thought occurs that you may be unable to accept the example of (the heretic) Luther as a fit analogy; therefore you might consider instead the Cleansing of the Temple by Jesus, when he took a whip (literally) to those officers of the Church who had defiled it (Matthew 21:12-13)

[Evil Genius]

The views expressed here by Iceman, are much closer to the real sentiments of the silent majority, who recognise the importance of religion in Irish society. It is part of our History,Culture,so deeply embedded in our DNA that rejection of it would leave us completely rudderless and have catostrophic consequences for our civil society

Does that last observation mean that you believe non-Catholic countries like eg New Zealand or Sweden to be "rudderless" and "catastrophically" damaged civilly?

And if so, where does that leave countries like Germany or Switzerland, which have a mixture of Catholic and Protestant Provinces/Cantons? Do their citizens consult or discard their "moral compass" as appropriate, when they move from one to the other? 

[Evil Genius]

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2011/0722/1224301127607.html

Fr Thomas Patrick Doyle OP, a US Dominican priest with a doctorate in canon law, is a renowned and outspoken advocate for church abuse victims

Good article.

How ironic that a Priest who is known for advocating on behalf of abused children shoud be described as "outspoken"... 

[muppet]

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2011/0722/1224301127607.html

Fr Thomas Patrick Doyle OP, a US Dominican priest with a doctorate in canon law, is a renowned and outspoken advocate for church abuse victims

Good article.

How ironic that a Priest who is known for advocating on behalf of abused children shoud be described as "outspoken"... 

When he is considered 'outspoken' and his adversaries are considered 'devout' that tells you what you need to know.

[The Iceman]

There are evil people everywhere, in every institution. It is saddening and shocking that so many of them hid within the ranks of the Catholic Church and took advantage of the Church's status in society.

No doubt.

I will continue to look to the Church as the moral authority. My understanding of what Church is may be different than yours.

Surely the problem with that is that this scandal is no longer a case of individuals  within an institution behaving atrociously?

Rather, as the Cloyne Report clearly demonstrates, it is that that institution, through all its offices, orders and highest officials, at every level including right to the very top, willingly and knowingly colluded with the aforementioned individuals, over decades and throughout the world, so that those individuals were able to rape, bugger and otherwise abuse countless thousands of children and their families.
Indeed, so widespread was this abuse, and so willing was the institution to wield its formidable power in defence of its image and reputation etc, that whole communities and societies, nation states even, were horribly corrupted and distorted.

Martin Luther finally concluded that "Enough is Enough" at the sight of the Church selling "Indulgences" out of self-interest, yet you seem prepared to countenance the same Church when it colludes in the rape of children, again out of self-interest, then denies what it has done, even when presented with damning (literally!) evidence.

What might it take for you finally to say "Enough!", or is there nothing the Church could do to make you think again?

P.S. The thought occurs that you may be unable to accept the example of (the heretic) Luther as a fit analogy; therefore you might consider instead the Cleansing of the Temple by Jesus, when he took a whip (literally) to those officers of the Church who had defiled it (Matthew 21:12-13)

I don't mind your reference to Luther. I have a fair understanding of his intent and what he stood for and the escalation from discontent to reformation. I think this is something different. Does everyone just break away and start another Church? And then if there is something we don't like, start another and another until we have 100 more denominations and even more places for things to go wrong?
If enough is enough then what next?

I am a big fan of fixing what is broken. Not abandoning and looking for another ship.