Clerical abuse!

[Hardy]

You mean MORE catastrophic than the consequences of blind adherence to authoritarian religious domination that have delivered, for just one example, three hundred years or more of division, murder, mayhem and hatred? Wow! I don't want to live in the post-religious Ireland if it's going to be worse than that.

[theskull1]

Is their something in the Irish psyche which causes us to swing from one extreme too the other. There are many examples in History, this Church controversy being the most recent. Anger directed at Rome and the Church hierarchy in Ireland is right and justifiable, as is calls for root and branch reform. There is no justification for the extreme anti-catholic agenda currently being fostered by all the usual suspects, aided and abetted by large sections of our bought and paid for media. The views expressed here by Iceman, are much closer to the real sentiments of the silent majority, who recognise the importance of religion in Irish society. It is part of our History,Culture,so deeply embedded in our DNA that rejection of it would leave us completely rudderless and have catostrophic consequences for our civil society

For those who have an inability to conceive other realities/think for themselves thats probably true enough for the masses who have invested too much in their faith. But do you not think that the CC is taking advantage of that reality rather than doing what is right regardless of what it costs them? The next generation will not give the CC the time of day because of what we know about their behaviour as an institution (the elderly will stick it out). There can be other mechanisms developed to teach children about morals and ethics to help societies develop the correct mindset in the young generation. The energy from the flock is not there to repair the CC. They are mostly all sheep who don't have it in them to fight for their faith.

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

It is part of our History,Culture,so deeply embedded in our DNA that rejection of it would leave us completely rudderless and have catostrophic consequences for our civil society

The Church of Rome took primacy under the Norman invader, it took control under the British Master, it worked for both.

Religion is a crutch for a man who can walk. Cast down that crutch and run.

[Tyrones own]

Is their something in the Irish psyche which causes us to swing from one extreme too the other. There are many examples in History, this Church controversy being the most recent. Anger directed at Rome and the Church hierarchy in Ireland is right and justifiable, as is calls for root and branch reform. There is no justification for the extreme anti-catholic agenda currently being fostered by all the usual suspects, aided and abetted by large sections of our bought and paid for media. The views expressed here by Iceman, are much closer to the real sentiments of the silent majority, who recognise the importance of religion in Irish society. It is part of our History,Culture,so deeply embedded in our DNA that rejection of it would leave us completely rudderless and have catostrophic consequences for our civil society

Absolutely spot on... I'll take and try to live by my faith any day rather than turn in to rudderless, intolerant and downright hateful human beings
like we have amongst us, No mention at all to the monumental contributions the catholic church offers to the most needy of people around the world
...no no, just focus on the rotten apples and spit insults from high up on their soap boxes, Pathetic!
There is no one disagreeing here about what should be done to the perpetrators... but the degree of hatefulness simply wont let ye leave it at that 

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

Is their something in the Irish psyche which causes us to swing from one extreme too the other. There are many examples in History, this Church controversy being the most recent. Anger directed at Rome and the Church hierarchy in Ireland is right and justifiable, as is calls for root and branch reform. There is no justification for the extreme anti-catholic agenda currently being fostered by all the usual suspects, aided and abetted by large sections of our bought and paid for media. The views expressed here by Iceman, are much closer to the real sentiments of the silent majority, who recognise the importance of religion in Irish society. It is part of our History,Culture,so deeply embedded in our DNA that rejection of it would leave us completely rudderless and have catostrophic consequences for our civil society

Absolutely spot on... I'll take and try to live by my faith any day rather than turn in to rudderless, intolerant and downright hateful human beings
like we have amongst us, No mention at all to the monumental contributions the catholic church offers to the most needy of people around the world
...no no, just focus on the rotten apples and spit insults from high up on their soap boxes, Pathetic!
There is no one disagreeing here about what should be done to the perpetrators... but the degree of hatefulness simply wont let ye leave it at that 

Why do you need a fairytale to give you direction? You don't need deities to give you positive morals. Is religion for people who fear that they could not control their darkside without the fear of hell and the promise of heaven. There is no heaven, there is no hell, do right be your fellow man and woman, by your community, by your nation, by your fellow creatures on this planet, by the future of this planet not because you have to but because you want to yourself, because surely that is what a person should do.

[Tyrones own]

Is their something in the Irish psyche which causes us to swing from one extreme too the other. There are many examples in History, this Church controversy being the most recent. Anger directed at Rome and the Church hierarchy in Ireland is right and justifiable, as is calls for root and branch reform. There is no justification for the extreme anti-catholic agenda currently being fostered by all the usual suspects, aided and abetted by large sections of our bought and paid for media. The views expressed here by Iceman, are much closer to the real sentiments of the silent majority, who recognise the importance of religion in Irish society. It is part of our History,Culture,so deeply embedded in our DNA that rejection of it would leave us completely rudderless and have catostrophic consequences for our civil society

Absolutely spot on... I'll take and try to live by my faith any day rather than turn in to rudderless, intolerant and downright hateful human beings
like we have amongst us, No mention at all to the monumental contributions the catholic church offers to the most needy of people around the world
...no no, just focus on the rotten apples and spit insults from high up on their soap boxes, Pathetic!
There is no one disagreeing here about what should be done to the perpetrators... but the degree of hatefulness simply wont let ye leave it at that 

Why do you need a fairytale to give you direction? You don't need deities to give you positive morals. Is religion for people who fear that they could not control their darkside without the fear of hell and the promise of heaven. There is no heaven, there is no hell, do right be your fellow man and woman, by your community, by your nation, by your fellow creatures on this planet, by the future of this planet not because you have to but because you want to yourself, because surely that is what a person should do.

Funny the word tolerant played no part in that little rant 

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

Is their something in the Irish psyche which causes us to swing from one extreme too the other. There are many examples in History, this Church controversy being the most recent. Anger directed at Rome and the Church hierarchy in Ireland is right and justifiable, as is calls for root and branch reform. There is no justification for the extreme anti-catholic agenda currently being fostered by all the usual suspects, aided and abetted by large sections of our bought and paid for media. The views expressed here by Iceman, are much closer to the real sentiments of the silent majority, who recognise the importance of religion in Irish society. It is part of our History,Culture,so deeply embedded in our DNA that rejection of it would leave us completely rudderless and have catostrophic consequences for our civil society

Absolutely spot on... I'll take and try to live by my faith any day rather than turn in to rudderless, intolerant and downright hateful human beings
like we have amongst us, No mention at all to the monumental contributions the catholic church offers to the most needy of people around the world
...no no, just focus on the rotten apples and spit insults from high up on their soap boxes, Pathetic!
There is no one disagreeing here about what should be done to the perpetrators... but the degree of hatefulness simply wont let ye leave it at that 

Why do you need a fairytale to give you direction? You don't need deities to give you positive morals. Is religion for people who fear that they could not control their darkside without the fear of hell and the promise of heaven. There is no heaven, there is no hell, do right be your fellow man and woman, by your community, by your nation, by your fellow creatures on this planet, by the future of this planet not because you have to but because you want to yourself, because surely that is what a person should do.

Funny the word tolerant played no part in that little rant 

Mmmmm because tolerance has been a keystone of religion throughout time.

By the way, here is a definition of tolerance, I like the example they give.

tol·er·ance
noun /ˈtäl(ə)rəns/ 
tolerances, plural

The ability or willingness to tolerate something, in particular the existence of opinions or behavior that one does not necessarily agree with
- the tolerance of corruption

Here is a definition of tolerate

tol·er·ate
verb /ˈtäləˌrāt/

Accept or endure (someone or something unpleasant or disliked) with forbearance
- how was it that she could tolerate such noise?

[ONeill]

Some talk about rebuilding as if it was that easy. They forget that some offending priests had absolute rule over parishes. Their waywardness/evilness affected generations.

Please don't let anyone defend the Vatican/Irish Church on this. Their failure to deal with the monstrous activities within their ranks was a greater evil than anything I've read of. Unless you have close contact with those affected you'll never know the extend of their negligence.

[Eamonnca1]

Two motorists are on the motorway, both are obeying the speed limit. 

The first one is obeying the speed limit because he's afraid he'll get caught by cops and have to pay a fine, and he thinks that if there were no speed limits then he wouldn't be able to control himself and would drive at over 100MPH.

The second is obeying the speed limit because he understands that exceeding it will greatly increase the liklihood that an accident will occur.  He sees the potential consequences of speeding in terms of the safety of himself and other road users, hence he refrains from doing it.

Which one has the better moral compass?

[Eamonnca1]

It is part of our History,Culture,so deeply embedded in our DNA that rejection of it would leave us completely rudderless and have catostrophic consequences for our civil society

Pass the sick bag.  Religion is not a genetic trait, it is a meme.  People figured out how to get by in large groups and large communities for hundreds of thousands of years before a tribe of middle eastern goat-herders supposedly reached the foot of Mt Sinai and got their orders from on high.

[Eamonnca1]

...no no, just focus on the rotten apples

Rotten apples? "Och sure it was only a handful of them."

There were bad apples all right, but the barrel itself was rotten and the man responsible for maintaining it simply stirred the rotten apples around in the hope that they'd go away rather than pulling them out.

[Tyrones own]

...no no, just focus on the rotten apples

Rotten apples? "Och sure it was only a handful of them."

There were bad apples all right, but the barrel itself was rotten and the man responsible for maintaining it simply stirred the rotten apples around in the hope that they'd go away rather than pulling them out.

And point to where you're getting any argument here... perhaps there isn't one, ah but sure we'll make one,
that way we can get the boot in to debates insults that go well beyond this thread title 

[Tyrones own]

Is their something in the Irish psyche which causes us to swing from one extreme too the other. There are many examples in History, this Church controversy being the most recent. Anger directed at Rome and the Church hierarchy in Ireland is right and justifiable, as is calls for root and branch reform. There is no justification for the extreme anti-catholic agenda currently being fostered by all the usual suspects, aided and abetted by large sections of our bought and paid for media. The views expressed here by Iceman, are much closer to the real sentiments of the silent majority, who recognise the importance of religion in Irish society. It is part of our History,Culture,so deeply embedded in our DNA that rejection of it would leave us completely rudderless and have catostrophic consequences for our civil society

Absolutely spot on... I'll take and try to live by my faith any day rather than turn in to rudderless, intolerant and downright hateful human beings
like we have amongst us, No mention at all to the monumental contributions the catholic church offers to the most needy of people around the world
...no no, just focus on the rotten apples and spit insults from high up on their soap boxes, Pathetic!
There is no one disagreeing here about what should be done to the perpetrators... but the degree of hatefulness simply wont let ye leave it at that 

Why do you need a fairytale to give you direction? You don't need deities to give you positive morals. Is religion for people who fear that they could not control their darkside without the fear of hell and the promise of heaven. There is no heaven, there is no hell, do right be your fellow man and woman, by your community, by your nation, by your fellow creatures on this planet, by the future of this planet not because you have to but because you want to yourself, because surely that is what a person should do.

Funny the word tolerant played no part in that little rant 


Mmmmm because tolerance has been a keystone of Religion daisy chain making, lets all hold hands and be friends but only when it suits humanitarians throughout time.




Fixed that for you

[Eamonnca1]

Insults?  Where? Please wait until someone resort to ad hominem on their opponent before you start accusing someone of ad hominem attacks.

When you refer to "rotten apple" then it's perfectly clear that you're resorting to the "few bad apples" defence, the idea that it was only a handful of rogue priests. But that was not the case. The management of the organisation colluded with with these people, covered up their crimes, intimidated victims and witnesses, and worst of all moved these sickos around so that they could carry on raping and torturing children.

Sorry if the truth hurts, but the fact is that the top levels of the organisation were complicit in these atrocities and were not the work of a few "bad apples". It was institutionalised abuse that was sanctioned and approved by the management.

[Tyrones own]

If for instance there were 1000 priests guilty of said crimes in ireland and that's probably quite generous, then add to that the bishops and cardinals
up through the echelons in the Vatican to the pope himself who were aware of it...does that mean that the Catholic church as a whole and
the good it does around the world should be abolished 

For the sheer size of the Church the world over yes I'd consider those rotten apples...and that includes the Pope
Clearly anything other than debating the punishment for those involved for these terrible crimes is insulting to me and others !