Clerical abuse!

[Tubberman]

1. The qualifications of clergy in general or whether or not, in general, they have any claim to a 'moral authority' is not relevant in this discussion.

Oh but it is, and here's why. 

For decades the clergy claimed to be the experts on all matter moral (they still do, in fact) and the people listened. It was that misplaced trust in the moral authority of the catholic church that gave it such a free reign and kept it immune from accountability. That is what led to the mess that was created. 

State institutions providing public services are supposed to be accountable and people should not feel intimidated about speaking up and flagging up any wrongdoing. Now if state-funded institutions are run by an organisation that has convinced its members that it is working on behalf of the almighty and enjoys unquestioned authority, that is a huge obstacle to accountability.  Peoples' deeply held religious beliefs hold them back from even considering that there might be something wrong with the system, to say nothing of blowing the whistle on it.

And if the church has such a strong hold on everyone all the way up through the police and up to top level politicians, accountability will be non-existent and you end up with institutions becoming a magnet for perverts, rapists, and other assorted sickos who sign up in the knowledge that they'll get away with murder.

Hence it is a blind faith in the moral authority of the catholic church that led to all of this.

There are evil people everywhere, in every institution. It is saddening and shocking that so many of them hid within the ranks of the Catholic Church and took advantage of the Church's status in society.

I will continue to look to the Church as the moral authority. My understanding of what Church is may be different than yours.

  Unbelievable.

[Jim_Murphy_74]

There are evil people everywhere, in every institution. It is saddening and shocking that so many of them hid within the ranks of the Catholic Church and took advantage of the Church's status in society.

I will continue to look to the Church as the moral authority. My understanding of what Church is may be different than yours.

Fair enough but when it comes to the shower that run the Church heed the old adage:

Do As I Say Not As I Do

/Jim.

[Main Street]

There are evil people everywhere, in every institution. It is saddening and shocking that so many of them hid within the ranks of the Catholic Church and took advantage of the Church's status in society.

AFAIK, there are no more child sex abusers in the Catholic church than in other institutions.
What spread it out through the church was the criminal complicity.
This is no few bad apple scenario that afflict most organisations. here the complicity was greater than the crime itself and spread through to the top of a decadent Church.

[Puckoon]

There are evil people everywhere, in every institution. It is saddening and shocking that so many of them hid within the ranks of the Catholic Church and took advantage of the Church's status in society.

I will continue to look to the Church as the moral authority. My understanding of what Church is may be different than yours.

Do you think in the decades gone by, before the rise against the church in Ireland, as can be seen on this thread, that the Church as a institution took advantage of a society to strengten its position and status through control?

[The Iceman]

There are evil people everywhere, in every institution. It is saddening and shocking that so many of them hid within the ranks of the Catholic Church and took advantage of the Church's status in society.

I will continue to look to the Church as the moral authority. My understanding of what Church is may be different than yours.

Do you think in the decades gone by, before the rise against the church in Ireland, as can be seen on this thread, that the Church as a institution took advantage of a society to strengten its position and status through control?

Absolutely. The Church as an institution is the key term here though.
My interpretation of the Church is not just the people that make it up, but more the teachings from a Biblical and Moral perspective, rather than the actions of those in its ranks. Like a poster above said.
"Do as I say not as I do"

I still believe what the Church teaches comes from God and what they actually do, at times, comes from men.

[Eamonnca1]

I will continue to look to the Church as the moral authority.

Jesus wept! 

My understanding of what Church is may be different than yours.

I don't doubt it, mate. I don't doubt it.

[Puckoon]

Yes - so could you agree then that a radical overhaul of the structures, and the place in society of the church can happen, and should happen - and it technically shouldnt impact your personal practice of religion at all - the good men and women of the church will still come to the fore? The institution is rotten to the core (even with the good people in the institution), it couldn't not be having existed for so long through a basis of fear and control - and it goes beyond the abuse of the children. There are calls from your "side" for calmness, and planning and long term strategy - but to me it just sounds like if we leave this alone we might be able to sweep it under the carpet. Not suggesting that is your strategy btw.

The church, if it is to exist should be the people en masse (pardon the pun), not the few who make up the official structures weilding the power. It always should have been the people - but I don't think it ever was.

[Eamonnca1]

I still believe what the Church teaches comes from God and what they actually do, at times, comes from men.

Ah, the old "everything good that happens is because of God and everything bad that happens is the fault of men" defence.

[Eamonnca1]

The church, if it is to exist should be the people en masse (pardon the pun), not the few who make up the official structures weilding the power. It always should have been the people - but I don't think it ever was.

That's why it's such a declining force.  This top-down authoritarian approach is out of touch with modern values. People don't take any crap anymore. Dictators aren't respected, they always get pulled down in the end.

Contrast that with the fragmented non-centralised nature of Islam which is spreading like weeds everywhere.

[The Iceman]

Yes - so could you agree then that a radical overhaul of the structures, and the place in society of the church can happen, and should happen - and it technically shouldnt impact your personal practice of religion at all - the good men and women of the church will still come to the fore? The institution is rotten to the core (even with the good people in the institution), it couldn't not be having existed for so long through a basis of fear and control - and it goes beyond the abuse of the children. There are calls from your "side" for calmness, and planning and long term strategy - but to me it just sounds like if we leave this alone we might be able to sweep it under the carpet. Not suggesting that is your strategy btw.

The church, if it is to exist should be the people en masse (pardon the pun), not the few who make up the official structures weilding the power. It always should have been the people - but I don't think it ever was.

I could agree to that Puck and I do believe that is what needs to happen. I also believe though that it is people like me who actually have a faith and a vested interest in how I am able to practice my faith and how this is facilitated by the Church, that should be involved in this overhaul. Not people like Eamonn et al who have no interest in leaving anything behind

[mylestheslasher]

Your right iceman, people like you should be at the centre of rebuilding your church. I can't speak for Eamonn but I just want the church removed from special relationships with government, removed from schools, hospitals and practiced in peoples own time.  I also want it held accountable for what it has done by the laws of the land. After that I couldn't care less if it doubled its membership or whether it died completely.

[The Iceman]

Your right iceman, people like you should be at the centre of rebuilding your church. I can't speak for Eamonn but I just want the church removed from special relationships with government, removed from schools, hospitals and practiced in peoples own time.  I also want it held accountable for what it has done by the laws of the land.

I agree with this bit.

[Eamonnca1]

Your right iceman, people like you should be at the centre of rebuilding your church. I can't speak for Eamonn but I just want the church removed from special relationships with government, removed from schools, hospitals and practiced in peoples own time.  I also want it held accountable for what it has done by the laws of the land. After that I couldn't care less if it doubled its membership or whether it died completely.

I agree with all that except I'd like to see it (and all religion) die completely. Superstition has long outlived any usefulness it may have had.

[BarryBreensBandage]

Your right iceman, people like you should be at the centre of rebuilding your church. I can't speak for Eamonn but I just want the church removed from special relationships with government, removed from schools, hospitals and practiced in peoples own time.  I also want it held accountable for what it has done by the laws of the land. After that I couldn't care less if it doubled its membership or whether it died completely.

I agree with all that except I'd like to see it (and all religion) die completely. Superstition has long outlived any usefulness it may have had.

Post no. 666 from Eamonnca1...

[Pangurban]

Is their something in the Irish psyche which causes us to swing from one extreme too the other. There are many examples in History, this Church controversy being the most recent. Anger directed at Rome and the Church hierarchy in Ireland is right and justifiable, as is calls for root and branch reform. There is no justification for the extreme anti-catholic agenda currently being fostered by all the usual suspects, aided and abetted by large sections of our bought and paid for media. The views expressed here by Iceman, are much closer to the real sentiments of the silent majority, who recognise the importance of religion in Irish society. It is part of our History,Culture,so deeply embedded in our DNA that rejection of it would leave us completely rudderless and have catostrophic consequences for our civil society