Clerical abuse!

[orangeman]

I'm no fan of Kenny but at least he had the balls to come out with it. Not like a lot of our poilitical leaders who were mealy mouthed at best.

Now the floodgates have opened. It's a very, very significant day in Ireland. Never before has the Irish govt come out so publicly and castigated the Vatican.

Whatever Kenny's motives are / were, fair dues to him.

[muppet]

I'm no fan of Kenny but at least he had the balls to come out with it. Not like a lot of our poilitical leaders who were mealy mouthed at best.

Now the floodgates have opened. It's a very, very significant day in Ireland. Never before has the Irish govt come out so publicly and castigated the Vatican.

Whatever Kenny's motives are / were, fair dues to him.

I'm actually pleasantly surprised at the speech. I've heard nothing like that about the Vatican before from anyone in authority. I'd see Kenny as very conservative so that sort of language is unexpected.

Listening to Micheál Martin it must become obvious to the FF party that they will have to replace him with young blood not associated with the last 15 years. He was part of the Government that did the cosy deal on compensation and he was a Minister for Education when some of the abuse was going on. He is a serious liability because he has no credibility.

I was glad to see O'Caolan making the SF speech today (he spoke well) and not Adams.

[Orior]

Every 5-7 years, priests get moved from one parish to another.

I've never heard any explanation as to how and why they choose to move a priest or how they decide the destination.

I can understand its good to stop a priest getting too familar with his congregation, but at the same time it is a cruel thing to do - loosing all your friends and working colleagues.

What do youse think? (Church bashers need not respond)

[mylestheslasher]

Every 5-7 years, priests get moved from one parish to another.

I've never heard any explanation as to how and why they choose to move a priest or how they decide the destination.

I can understand its good to stop a priest getting too familar with his congregation, but at the same time it is a cruel thing to do - loosing all your friends and working colleagues.

What do youse think? (Church bashers need not respond)

This thread is about Clerical abuse, if you want to discuss the lonliness of being a priest (which i'm sure it undoubtedly is) you should start a new thread on it.

Edit - I was just reading through some of the earlier pages of this thread to prove to myself how since 2009 nothing much has changed and I came across your 1st posts. Have a look at them on P18 & 19. Its all a big joke to you Orior isn't it?

[mylestheslasher]

I'm no fan of Kenny but at least he had the balls to come out with it. Not like a lot of our poilitical leaders who were mealy mouthed at best.

Now the floodgates have opened. It's a very, very significant day in Ireland. Never before has the Irish govt come out so publicly and castigated the Vatican.

Whatever Kenny's motives are / were, fair dues to him.

I'm actually pleasantly surprised at the speech. I've heard nothing like that about the Vatican before from anyone in authority. I'd see Kenny as very conservative so that sort of language is unexpected.

Listening to Micheál Martin it must become obvious to the FF party that they will have to replace him with young blood not associated with the last 15 years. He was part of the Government that did the cosy deal on compensation and he was a Minister for Education when some of the abuse was going on. He is a serious liability because he has no credibility.

I was glad to see O'Caolan making the SF speech today (he spoke well) and not Adams.

I agree with both Orangeman and Muppet. Lawnseed - you are being very cynical. I too am no fan of FG but you have to acknowledge Kenny said perfectly what the average joe is thinking and for once a leader in the country told the vatican who was in charge around here. Fair play to him. This is one example of a clear different approach by FG, I just hope they take action now You weaken your own position by looking for flaws in Kenny where there are none. I am also in agreement about O Caolain. He was removed as party leader by SF and in my opinion that was a mistake. He is more tuned in on the affairs in the South than Adams. However, it is my turn to be cynical and say the reason Adams doesn't speak much on this issue is because he risks being called a hypocrite so he will steer well clear.

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

hold your horses lads before you all become the enda fan club again like you did about a hundred days ago.. lets just see exactly where enda is coming from, could it be that the main reason mr kenny and his cohorts are gettiin lippy is because he wants to draw attention away from his own governments short comings and possibly the fact that thus far the catholic church have only come up with a couple of million toward the victoms fund. (we need the cash) the irish government have had access to this information for years various politicians have chose to ignore it.. the reason they have choosen to speak out now is because they feel the voting public have an appetite for it.. not because its the right thing to do. imo the reason  politicians havent come out before is because they were afraid of the catholic church.. afraid of its power and influence.. where do these guys head when they are looking for support.. they stand outside the church imagine if a priest went out and chased them? they'd be fukd.. they wouldnt get a dozen votes. but now its safe to slag off the church but only the crowd in rome of course our crowd are ok.. cause they have relations who can vote.. cant say too much we might offend someones brother etc.. politicians/clergy/bankers apart form signing your passport photos not much use at all 

Lawnseed, is this more of your opposition for opposition sake?

[Eamonnca1]

1. The qualifications of clergy in general or whether or not, in general, they have any claim to a 'moral authority' is not relevant in this discussion.

Oh but it is, and here's why. 

For decades the clergy claimed to be the experts on all matter moral (they still do, in fact) and the people listened. It was that misplaced trust in the moral authority of the catholic church that gave it such a free reign and kept it immune from accountability. That is what led to the mess that was created. 

State institutions providing public services are supposed to be accountable and people should not feel intimidated about speaking up and flagging up any wrongdoing. Now if state-funded institutions are run by an organisation that has convinced its members that it is working on behalf of the almighty and enjoys unquestioned authority, that is a huge obstacle to accountability.  Peoples' deeply held religious beliefs hold them back from even considering that there might be something wrong with the system, to say nothing of blowing the whistle on it.

And if the church has such a strong hold on everyone all the way up through the police and up to top level politicians, accountability will be non-existent and you end up with institutions becoming a magnet for perverts, rapists, and other assorted sickos who sign up in the knowledge that they'll get away with murder.

Hence it is a blind faith in the moral authority of the catholic church that led to all of this.

[Eamonnca1]

the reason they have choosen to speak out now is because they feel the voting public have an appetite for it.. not because its the right thing to do.

You think Enda Kenny thinks doesn't think it's wrong to allow a system to exist in which children get raped? I think that's a bit harsh.

In any case I thought that politicians in a democracy were supposed to do what the voters want them to do.

[Pangurban]

Yesterday Enda became a leader, now lets see where he leads

[Declan]

Yesterday Enda became a leader, now lets see where he leads

Lets see him comment on the financial crisis at the heart of the ECB etc etc with the same vigour and I'll be convinced. But I won't hold my breath. I'm delighted with what he said yesterday but..... ( my cynical side says that it was very opportunistic - hopefully I'm wrong)

[brokencrossbar1]

Yesterday Enda became a leader, now lets see where he leads

Yesterday Enda became a leader, now lets see where he leads

Lets see him comment on the financial crisis at the heart of the ECB etc etc with the same vigour and I'll be convinced. But I won't hold my breath. I'm delighted with what he said yesterday but..... ( my cynical side says that it was very opportunistic - hopefully I'm wrong)

Both these comments sum my feelings up exactly.  It was a brave move to take but there are many other issues that Kenny must now lead on.  The thing is that while his individual star continues to rise his party is still sitting stagnant and the general feeling is that many of the pre-election promises are not being met.

I also see where lawnseed is coming from.  He is cynical but cynicism is not a bad thing when assessing politicians.  He may have believed in every single word he said, and he may have had the best of intentions in getting the messgae for the victims across but he also saw an amazing opportunity to gain serious kudos with the voting public.  As lawseed said he attacked Rome but never really hit out at the "local" church as hard as he should have.  It is like the US policy of focusing on Foreign policy to detract from domestic problems, "blame the people away over there in Rome and people will not see where the issue ultimately arose".

[Hardy]

Leadership my arse. The spin doctors know which way the wind blows. Although what Kenny said needed to be said and it may seem churlish to cavil about it, ten or twenty or more years ago was when it needed to be said. Far from showing leadership, this is the government scrambling to catch up with the people. There's nothing controversial in what he said and saying anything less would have caused outrage. "There go the people. I am their leader. I must follow them".

[brokencrossbar1]

Leadership my arse. The spin doctors know which way the wind blows. Although what Kenny said needed to be said and it may seem churlish to cavil about it, ten or twenty or more years ago was when it needed to be said. Far from showing leadership, this is the government scrambling to catch up with the people. There's nothing controversial in what he said and saying anything less would have caused outrage. "There go the people. I am their leader. I must follow them".

I agree with you Hardy but remember it is not that long ago that many rural areas in ireland were controlled by the priest with the blackthorn stick and some places still have the same deference to the church.  Words mean nothing, what needs to now happen is that the Government take the correct moves to make the people who are cupable pay, both through the Court system and in their pockets.  Time for the worlds largest company to open it's coffers and see the victims right.

[Main Street]

I am not familiar with what Taoiseach Kenny has said in the past on this issue. Maybe there is political gain for him in making such an unprecedented overt attack on the criminal activities of the Vatican, I don't know but I have my doubts.
Usually the right wing indulge in tirades against the jews/knackers/dole scroungers/foreigners/crime.

The main people who directly suffered were the children and their families. For the first time the elected leader of this country has read the appropriate prepared script which unreservedly condemned the Catholic Church to the highest level, for their part in the rape of these children.

[The Iceman]

1. The qualifications of clergy in general or whether or not, in general, they have any claim to a 'moral authority' is not relevant in this discussion.

Oh but it is, and here's why. 

For decades the clergy claimed to be the experts on all matter moral (they still do, in fact) and the people listened. It was that misplaced trust in the moral authority of the catholic church that gave it such a free reign and kept it immune from accountability. That is what led to the mess that was created. 

State institutions providing public services are supposed to be accountable and people should not feel intimidated about speaking up and flagging up any wrongdoing. Now if state-funded institutions are run by an organisation that has convinced its members that it is working on behalf of the almighty and enjoys unquestioned authority, that is a huge obstacle to accountability.  Peoples' deeply held religious beliefs hold them back from even considering that there might be something wrong with the system, to say nothing of blowing the whistle on it.

And if the church has such a strong hold on everyone all the way up through the police and up to top level politicians, accountability will be non-existent and you end up with institutions becoming a magnet for perverts, rapists, and other assorted sickos who sign up in the knowledge that they'll get away with murder.

Hence it is a blind faith in the moral authority of the catholic church that led to all of this.

There are evil people everywhere, in every institution. It is saddening and shocking that so many of them hid within the ranks of the Catholic Church and took advantage of the Church's status in society.

I will continue to look to the Church as the moral authority. My understanding of what Church is may be different than yours.