Clerical abuse!

[Rufus T Firefly]

The difference is that I, for my part, am not proclaiming a doctrine that prescribes the opposite.

This very thread is littered with statements of a judgemental nature, all of which could be challenged by an interjection such as yours. You have only chosen to do so with The Iceman.

As for O'Neill's statement, I haven't seen the context of it but he's surely not suggesting that we need to be more "liberal" in our reactions to clerics who abuse children?

He surely is not.

[Hardy]

The difference is that I, for my part, am not proclaiming a doctrine that prescribes the opposite.

This very thread is littered with statements of a judgemental nature, all of which could be challenged by an interjection such as yours. You have only chosen to do so with The Iceman.

Sorry. I wasn't clear about what I was saying. The point of my intervention was to contrast the requirements of the faith Iceman openly espouses that we shouldn't judge others with what I perceived (though I may have been wrong) as judgement of others. Of course people are judging all over the place here. The difference is that they're not proclaiming themselves as adherents of a faith that prohibits it.

I'm all for judgement myself. How else are we to make decisions than by exercising judgement?

As for O'Neill's statement, I haven't seen the context of it but he's surely not suggesting that we need to be more "liberal" in our reactions to clerics who abuse children?

He surely is not.

Good. But if he's not, his statement doesn't make much sense.

[muppet]

Iceman you were asked if you were a member of Opus Dei. Did you see that?

[The Iceman]

I did see it and I am not a member

[pintsofguinness]

Meanwhile, the Bishop of Down and Connor has called on Catholics to show support for the church by attending Mass.

Is this code for something ?.

I've lost patience with these idiots, I think we should all stop talking about it, the country as a whole I mean, and leave them, the paedos, their apologists and the brainwashed to it.

the country as a whole doesn't share your opinion Pints. And I'm certainly not brainwashed.  I don't agree with a lot of things but I still have faith in God.

I can imagine you have been leaving us to it for a while.  Good luck to you.
I'm sure you'll come running back when you need confirmation for a child, or a wedding or a funeral - always the way......

The country as a whole doesnt share what opinion?  I have faith in God too but the thoughts of standing in a catholic church makes me feel sick to my stomach.

When I "need" confirmation for a child?  I wouldn't have my child confirmed or baptised if I had a choice and it wasn't a requirement of all the schools in the area and rather than sending a 4 year old to a boarding school (lynchbhoy) I'd use the church and have them baptised and confirmed.
Similar goes for a funeral.
As for a wedding, I couldn't care less if I was married in a church or not in fact I wouldn't be for it at all, even before all this, as in our parish you have to do a daft pre marriage course. i.e. some know it all preaching to you and a man that is not allowed to have a relationship with a woman never mind get married.

THe last time I was at mass the priest was crying about people bringing their children to get confirmed and all that and then not going to mass - why don't the church let go of their hold on society in Ireland and we'll see how many bother with baptisms and confirmations.

Rufus

That's why I am so convinced that Brendan O'Neill's line (below) is so apt in when considering the vitriol poured out both here and elsewhere against Cardinal Sean Brady;

.........today's reaction to those allegations of sexual abuse is also deeply problematic. For it is a reaction informed more by prejudice and illiberalism than by anything resembling a principled secularism....

What do you mean by that Rufus because to me that reads like you don't believe people are genuinely outraged with Brady and are using it as an excuse to have a go at the church?

[The Iceman]

The country as a whole doesnt share what opinion?  I have faith in God too but the thoughts of standing in a catholic church makes me feel sick to my stomach.

When I "need" confirmation for a child?  I wouldn't have my child confirmed or baptised if I had a choice and it wasn't a requirement of all the schools in the area and rather than sending a 4 year old to a boarding school (lynchbhoy) I'd use the church and have them baptised and confirmed.
Similar goes for a funeral.
As for a wedding, I couldn't care less if I was married in a church or not in fact I wouldn't be for it at all, even before all this, as in our parish you have to do a daft pre marriage course. i.e. some know it all preaching to you and a man that is not allowed to have a relationship with a woman never mind get married.

THe last time I was at mass the priest was crying about people bringing their children to get confirmed and all that and then not going to mass - why don't the church let go of their hold on society in Ireland and we'll see how many bother with baptisms and confirmations.

The country as a whole doesn't share your opinion on the Church.
Nobody is forcing you to go to any church so you can keep your dinner down. 

Paddy and Joe go to a wedding mass.  Joe thinks it was the biggest pile of shite and Paddy thought it was an amazing and spectacular event.  They were both at the same wedding but had totally different experiences.  Its all about what we think is important and what we perceive and how we respond based on this.

You obviously have no faith Pints or only a token faith that is of no importance to you.  If it was important to you then you would partake in the sacraments.
You gripe on and on about everything and anything - that doens't mean that we should not complain when things go wrong - but thats all you do is complain - even when things go write.  I've yet to read a positive post from you.  You seem to have a permanent chip on your shoulder.  I don't want to turn this into a personal attack and i'm sorry thats where it went but enough is enough sometimes.

Lets just agree to disagree.  You be Joe and i'll be Paddy.

Peace

[muppet]

The country as a whole doesnt share what opinion?  I have faith in God too but the thoughts of standing in a catholic church makes me feel sick to my stomach.

When I "need" confirmation for a child?  I wouldn't have my child confirmed or baptised if I had a choice and it wasn't a requirement of all the schools in the area and rather than sending a 4 year old to a boarding school (lynchbhoy) I'd use the church and have them baptised and confirmed.
Similar goes for a funeral.
As for a wedding, I couldn't care less if I was married in a church or not in fact I wouldn't be for it at all, even before all this, as in our parish you have to do a daft pre marriage course. i.e. some know it all preaching to you and a man that is not allowed to have a relationship with a woman never mind get married.

THe last time I was at mass the priest was crying about people bringing their children to get confirmed and all that and then not going to mass - why don't the church let go of their hold on society in Ireland and we'll see how many bother with baptisms and confirmations.

The country as a whole doesn't share your opinion on the Church.
Nobody is forcing you to go to any church so you can keep your dinner down. 

Paddy and Joe go to a wedding mass.  Joe thinks it was the biggest pile of shite and Paddy thought it was an amazing and spectacular event.  They were both at the same wedding but had totally different experiences.  Its all about what we think is important and what we perceive and how we respond based on this.

You obviously have no faith Pints or only a token faith that is of no importance to you.  If it was important to you then you would partake in the sacraments.
You gripe on and on about everything and anything - that doens't mean that we should not complain when things go wrong - but thats all you do is complain - even when things go write.  I've yet to read a positive post from you.  You seem to have a permanent chip on your shoulder.  I don't want to turn this into a personal attack and i'm sorry thats where it went but enough is enough sometimes.

Lets just agree to disagree.  You be Joe and i'll be Paddy.

Peace

Welcome to the internet Jesus. Do you have broadband up there now?

Cool username by the way, I would never have guessed.

[pintsofguinness]

You obviously have no faith Pints or only a token faith that is of no importance to you.  If it was important to you then you would partake in the sacraments.

What the hell does that mean? You know nothing about me or my faith?
I dont believe in the sacraments, I dont believe you have to be baptised to be close to God or part of his family, same with confirmation, same with marriage.

You gripe on and on about everything and anything - that doens't mean that we should not complain when things go wrong - but thats all you do is complain - even when things go write.  I've yet to read a positive post from you.  You seem to have a permanent chip on your shoulder.  I don't want to turn this into a personal attack and i'm sorry thats where it went but enough is enough sometimes.

That's exactly what you've done. ...

[Main Street]

Funny, I thought one of the central tenets of Catholicism was "judge not and ye shall not be judged". I would respectfully suggest that your pronouncements upon who does and doesn't qualify to participate in church ceremonies is somewhat at odds with this ideal. It's a little reminiscent of the Pharisee and the Publican - "I thank thee, Lord, that I am not as the rest of men".

And the flip side of that coin Hardy? Seems to be a hell of a lot more here than The Iceman making judgements - many of them ill informed.

That's why I am so convinced that Brendan O'Neill's line (below) is so apt in when considering the vitriol poured out both here and elsewhere against Cardinal Sean Brady;

.........today's reaction to those allegations of sexual abuse is also deeply problematic. For it is a reaction informed more by prejudice and illiberalism than by anything resembling a principled secularism....

The difference is that I, for my part, am not proclaiming a doctrine that prescribes the opposite.

As for O'Neill's statement, I haven't seen the context of it but he's surely not suggesting that we need to be more "liberal" in our reactions to clerics who abuse children? What could that mean?

Brendan O'Neill
"today's reaction to those allegations of sexual abuse is also deeply problematic. For it is a reaction informed more by prejudice and illiberalism than by anything resembling a principled secularism."

"Allegations of sexual abuse"   We are way passed the allegation stage. Should abuse denial like that be made into a criminal offense? It directly insults the abused, ignores the proof and outrages any sense of human decency.

Anyway, is he suggesting that we need to be more liberal in our reaction to the sexual abuse cover up and the continued waffle of excuses coming from both the Irish Cardinal and the Vatican for the cover up policy?
He is definitely suggesting that such a reaction to the sex abuse cover up, is not informed, is not objective and is not based on principles of spirituality.

Apparantly Brendan O'Neill is as good as it gets for the cover-up apologists.

.

[The Iceman]

You obviously have no faith Pints or only a token faith that is of no importance to you.  If it was important to you then you would partake in the sacraments.

What the hell does that mean? You know nothing about me or my faith?
I dont believe in the sacraments, I dont believe you have to be baptised to be close to God or part of his family, same with confirmation, same with marriage.

You can't believe in Jesus and not believe in the Sacraments - He instituted them! You can't have faith and not believe in Baptism you don't make any sense at all!

You gripe on and on about everything and anything - that doens't mean that we should not complain when things go wrong - but thats all you do is complain - even when things go write.  I've yet to read a positive post from you.  You seem to have a permanent chip on your shoulder.  I don't want to turn this into a personal attack and i'm sorry thats where it went but enough is enough sometimes.

That's exactly what you've done. ...
[/quote]
And I admitted that

[johnneycool]

presumably youd find another revenue stream to pay for these schools then ?

I was wondering about this aspect of the maintained schools in the North, how would you find out how much funds do they receive from the catholic church as opposed to the department of education or whatever their name is now?

[longrunsthefox]

You obviously have no faith Pints or only a token faith that is of no importance to you.  If it was important to you then you would partake in the sacraments.

What the hell does that mean? You know nothing about me or my faith?
I dont believe in the sacraments, I dont believe you have to be baptised to be close to God or part of his family, same with confirmation, same with marriage.

You can't believe in Jesus and not believe in the Sacraments - He instituted them! You can't have faith and not believe in Baptism you don't make any sense at all!

You gripe on and on about everything and anything - that doens't mean that we should not complain when things go wrong - but thats all you do is complain - even when things go write.  I've yet to read a positive post from you.  You seem to have a permanent chip on your shoulder.  I don't want to turn this into a personal attack and i'm sorry thats where it went but enough is enough sometimes.

That's exactly what you've done. ...

And I admitted that
[/quote]

Jees! you're a real one true and only church fundamentalist coming out with that dung. I believe in Jesus and not the sacraments. Are you going to forbid me from doing that?   

[The Iceman]

You obviously have no faith Pints or only a token faith that is of no importance to you.  If it was important to you then you would partake in the sacraments.

What the hell does that mean? You know nothing about me or my faith?
I dont believe in the sacraments, I dont believe you have to be baptised to be close to God or part of his family, same with confirmation, same with marriage.

You can't believe in Jesus and not believe in the Sacraments - He instituted them! You can't have faith and not believe in Baptism you don't make any sense at all!

You gripe on and on about everything and anything - that doens't mean that we should not complain when things go wrong - but thats all you do is complain - even when things go write.  I've yet to read a positive post from you.  You seem to have a permanent chip on your shoulder.  I don't want to turn this into a personal attack and i'm sorry thats where it went but enough is enough sometimes.

That's exactly what you've done. ...

And I admitted that

Jees! you're a real one true and only church fundamentalist coming out with that dung. I believe in Jesus and not the sacraments. Are you going to forbid me from doing that 
[/quote]

Fox you can call it dung all you like.  I have never made any secrets about my position on it all.  I said from the beginning that I believe in God and all that goes with that.  This isn't Woolworths pick and mix or a buffet style lunch at Pizza Hut as far as I am concerned.

I don't know why I have to be labeled a fundamentalist for believing in the Sacraments or standing up for my faith.  I don't believe everything I am doing is the right and only way to do things.  I won't, however, sit back and say nothing when a completely contradictory statement is put out there as the norm.  You can believe in Jesus all you like - if you're not Baptized its no good to you. It's really hard to not come across as a Protestant or evangelical when it comes to things like this but talk to any priest or religious and you'll hear the same (hopefully).

[muppet]

You obviously have no faith Pints or only a token faith that is of no importance to you.  If it was important to you then you would partake in the sacraments.

What the hell does that mean? You know nothing about me or my faith?
I dont believe in the sacraments, I dont believe you have to be baptised to be close to God or part of his family, same with confirmation, same with marriage.

You can't believe in Jesus and not believe in the Sacraments - He instituted them! You can't have faith and not believe in Baptism you don't make any sense at all!

You gripe on and on about everything and anything - that doens't mean that we should not complain when things go wrong - but thats all you do is complain - even when things go write.  I've yet to read a positive post from you.  You seem to have a permanent chip on your shoulder.  I don't want to turn this into a personal attack and i'm sorry thats where it went but enough is enough sometimes.

That's exactly what you've done. ...

And I admitted that

Jees! you're a real one true and only church fundamentalist coming out with that dung. I believe in Jesus and not the sacraments. Are you going to forbid me from doing that 

Fox you can call it dung all you like.  I have never made any secrets about my position on it all.  I said from the beginning that I believe in God and all that goes with that.  This isn't Woolworths pick and mix or a buffet style lunch at Pizza Hut as far as I am concerned.

I don't know why I have to be labeled a fundamentalist for believing in the Sacraments or standing up for my faith.  I don't believe everything I am doing is the right and only way to do things.  I won't, however, sit back and say nothing when a completely contradictory statement is put out there as the norm.  You can believe in Jesus all you like - if you're not Baptized its no good to you. It's really hard to not come across as a Protestant or evangelical when it comes to things like this but talk to any priest or religious and you'll hear the same (hopefully).
[/quote]

So in conclusion if people aren't as good as The Iceman 'it's no good to you'?

[The Iceman]

You obviously have no faith Pints or only a token faith that is of no importance to you.  If it was important to you then you would partake in the sacraments.

What the hell does that mean? You know nothing about me or my faith?
I dont believe in the sacraments, I dont believe you have to be baptised to be close to God or part of his family, same with confirmation, same with marriage.

You can't believe in Jesus and not believe in the Sacraments - He instituted them! You can't have faith and not believe in Baptism you don't make any sense at all!

You gripe on and on about everything and anything - that doens't mean that we should not complain when things go wrong - but thats all you do is complain - even when things go write.  I've yet to read a positive post from you.  You seem to have a permanent chip on your shoulder.  I don't want to turn this into a personal attack and i'm sorry thats where it went but enough is enough sometimes.

That's exactly what you've done. ...

And I admitted that

Jees! you're a real one true and only church fundamentalist coming out with that dung. I believe in Jesus and not the sacraments. Are you going to forbid me from doing that 

Fox you can call it dung all you like.  I have never made any secrets about my position on it all.  I said from the beginning that I believe in God and all that goes with that.  This isn't Woolworths pick and mix or a buffet style lunch at Pizza Hut as far as I am concerned.

I don't know why I have to be labeled a fundamentalist for believing in the Sacraments or standing up for my faith.  I don't believe everything I am doing is the right and only way to do things.  I won't, however, sit back and say nothing when a completely contradictory statement is put out there as the norm.  You can believe in Jesus all you like - if you're not Baptized its no good to you. It's really hard to not come across as a Protestant or evangelical when it comes to things like this but talk to any priest or religious and you'll hear the same (hopefully).

So in conclusion if people aren't as good as The Iceman 'it's no good to you'?
[/quote]

you live up to your name lad - stop putting words in my mouth