Clerical abuse!

[johnneycool]

the next thing we'll get from the vatican is that they'll say a mass for the victims of systematic child abuse, a real father ted moment.

They're are so far detached from reality its unreal at times.

[Hardy]

Good posts Main Street and Skull. I was going to say something like that.

The church, even at the highest level seems still not to comprehend the very basics of the whole thing. They seem incapable of learning, even from their own experience, never mind from myriad other Watergate-type examples in history, that the crime is abominable, but the cover-up is even worse, and a million times worse when it further endangers the victims.

People can comprehend the evil of an individual, or even many individuals who can perpetrate vile crimes. Some, applying their religious indoctrination, can even find it in themselves to forgive them. What they can neither comprehend nor forgive is the aiding and abetting of these crimes by the church in putting its own interests and preservation before the welfare of the victims and worse, potential victims, who became actual victims as a direct result of this institutionalised conspiracy.

The church, after all, is the organisation that touts itself as the the unchallengable authority on good and right and morality and many of the victims and their families deposited their unquestioning trust in it on this basis. 

That's what the institutional church doesn't seem to even vaguely comprehend - that the outrage of the public is directed against the instutionalised cover-up and facilitation of further abuse more than the individual instances. But even still, the pope himself continues to address himself to the individual cases of abuse and, ludicrously, to waffle on about faith, without even a nod towards the seething anger that the institution he heads is morally bankrupt and criminally corrupt. It's chilling that after two days of discussion, presumably on the details of how the criminals were protected within the church, he doesn't even mention this central core of the issue.

[AFS]

From the Vatican statement.

'The Holy Father also pointed to the more general crisis of faith affecting the church

The Faith is declining in Ireland and across the Catholic World.

and he linked that to the lack of respect for the human person

This weakening of the faith has lead to a lack of respect for the human person - I think this is very true.  I believe people have little or no respect for humankind any more.

and how the weakening of faith has been a significant contributing factor in the phenomenon of the sexual abuse of minors

.
This in turn might help explain why child abuse happens

This is nonsense. Faith is not a necessity for morality. Morality predates any type of religious faith, and probably predates humanity. You do not need a faith to know the difference between right and wrong.

[The Iceman]

Can Morals change? Or did they remain constant throughout history?

If Morals can change or slide then surely mankind needs some kind of guidance.  Whether you like it or not Faith in God and following His teachings has acted as that guide for 1000s of years for millions of people.  People who really lived out their faith and truly had/have a relationship with God for the most part stick to these morals and guidelines.

If the faith has weakened then people who could have normally followed these guidelines no longer have them.

The world is in a real mess.  I don't think pointing the finger at the Pope is going to solve anything.  I think if we leave everything up to mankind and his or her "definition" of morals then it is going to be in an even bigger mess.  I am glad I have a Church and a Faith to guide me.

I think the Pope's point was that as Faith declines so do morals.  With a lack of morals and what ever justification you have for whatever morals you do have, we're all in trouble.  We leave the door open for abuse on multiple levels - just because people thinks its ok.

You might not think it's ok - but obviously the people that are carrying out the abuse think it is......................

[theskull1]

The morals your talking about Iceman are those debatable grey areas, like too much cleavage, too short a skirt, bad language, homosexuality, consensual sex before marriage all the way up to should I wear a niqab

Child abuse is not in the same ball park and is not up for debate.

[The Iceman]

The morals your talking about Iceman are those debatable grey areas, like too much cleavage, too short a skirt, bad language, homosexuality, consensual sex before marriage all the way up to should I wear a niqab

Child abuse is not in the same ball park and is not up for debate.

According to you.

Tell that to the people doing it every day who think its ok.

Tell that to the 25 year old who is technically "abusing" his 17 year old girlfriend
Or the 12 year old who is legally married to her 40 year old husband in Afghanistan.

Your morals and my morals are not everyone's  skull......

[theskull1]

The morals your talking about Iceman are those debatable grey areas, like too much cleavage, too short a skirt, bad language, homosexuality, consensual sex before marriage all the way up to should I wear a niqab

Child abuse is not in the same ball park and is not up for debate.

According to you.

Tell that to the people doing it every day who think its ok.

Tell that to the 25 year old who is technically "abusing" his 17 year old girlfriend
Or the 12 year old who is legally married to her 40 year old husband in Afghanistan.

Your morals and my morals are not everyone's  skull......

The 40 year old afghan is abusing a child. He may not think it because he is a thick as pig shit, but he is still abusing a child. The 25 year old I don't believe is. In fact does the law takes that position as well if I'm not mistaken. Who are these people who might consider molesting a 5 year old ok?

[AFS]

The morals your talking about Iceman are those debatable grey areas, like too much cleavage, too short a skirt, bad language, homosexuality, consensual sex before marriage all the way up to should I wear a niqab

Child abuse is not in the same ball park and is not up for debate.

According to you.

Tell that to the people doing it every day who think its ok.

Tell that to the 25 year old who is technically "abusing" his 17 year old girlfriend
Or the 12 year old who is legally married to her 40 year old husband in Afghanistan.

Your morals and my morals are not everyone's  skull......

The majority of paedophiles know their actions are wrong.

Can Morals change? Or did they remain constant throughout history?

If Morals can change or slide then surely mankind needs some kind of guidance.  Whether you like it or not Faith in God and following His teachings has acted as that guide for 1000s of years for millions of people.  People who really lived out their faith and truly had/have a relationship with God for the most part stick to these morals and guidelines.

If the faith has weakened then people who could have normally followed these guidelines no longer have them.

The morality of violence is fairly constant, to the extent that it's instinctive. There's no need for guidance.

[The Iceman]

It was never acceptable to enslave a white man - but it was morally acceptable to enslave a black man.

Virginity is considered a high moral amoung Christians, but that doesn't apply to men.

Murder has generally always been considered wrong by all societies, but generally murder has never been considered wrong if it was outside a sort of circle of inclusion. If you're a woman, or a black, that specific society won't see their morals as applying to you.

I think this is true???

[Gaoth Dobhair Abu]

Iceman your wasting your time.

[Hardy]

Sorry, but what has all of this got to do with the criminal and morally bankrupt activities of the Catholic church at official level in covering up and facilitating child abuse by its clergy?

[theskull1]

Hardy your'e wasting your time

Some boys just want to be left to chew the alter rails and not doubt too much

[The Iceman]

Hardy your'e wasting your time

Some boys just want to be left to chew the alter rails and not doubt too much

it has nothing to do with chewing the altar rails and more to do with correcting certain ill informed and ignorant people......

Peace

[Hardy]

Isn't it ironic that someone who bases his opinions and arguments on faith rather than reason can call others ill informed and announces that his own dogma, conviction or surmise "corrects" the opinions of others simply because he, or whatever entity forms his belief system says so?

[The Iceman]

Isn't it ironic that someone who bases his opinions and arguments on faith rather than reason can call others ill informed and announces that his own dogma, conviction or surmise "corrects" the opinions of others simply because he, or whatever entity forms his belief system says so?

I posted to defend a statement made by the pope which when you break it down has nothing that would cause offense and makes complete sense.  For this statement the Pope was labeled a clown and several other unsavory remarks.  I do not rely on faith if you look through my posts on this.
People need to start reading posts before seeing one thing and jumping to conclusions.

I do not want to take anything away from the topic but the Pope made a good point in his statement.  Thats all I have to say.....