Clerical abuse!

[Gaoth Dobhair Abu]

Jesus lads how many times can youse rehash this stuff!

What happened was disgraceful and everyone wants justice, but some on here are just using this as an excuse for their anti catholic/church tirades. Let the courts settle it. As for the compo, FFS have we all turned American!

Sorry for boring you with tales of abuse of children and cover ups from the vatican down. I know I should be over talking shite about Celtic or something more important. This has been out there most of the week and you have chosen to comment at 2-30am on Sunday morning after probably a skip of drink (haven't you made a bollix of yourself doing this before too). 2 lines dismissing the gravity of the thing. Maybe when you take your head out of your arse you might let us know about what this justice "everyone" wants is? Hardly anyone has mentioned compensation but only someone that thinks the corrupt catholic church is more important than the wrecked lives and lost innocence of children. People like you make me depressed about the future of this country such is the grip a bunch of clergy have on you. As I said before, you don't need the catholic church to follow the word of god or be a christian. I suggest you read the artcile posted above and ask yourself are you one of the people that the church controls.

Myles what has Celtic got to do with this?
When I post on here has fcuk all to do with you.
No never made a bollix of myself on here, I have stated my opinion on things which others have disagreed on (but sure you continue to "play the man").
FFS church funds/assets and compo have been mentioned all through this thread, maybe you should take your own biased head from your own hole!
As for Justice, that is something for the courts to decide on.
Finally - so because I have different views then you on the Church, I'm controlled - thanks for clearing that up for me. 

You posted on this within the hour of posting on the "right I'm pissed thread" which tells me a little about the type of guy you are. Plus you tend to start up a load of meaningless threads on a Saturday night after a few scoops, no. Drink loosens the tongue they say but with you it loosens your fingers and a few screws in your head. I presume you are posting sober now so at least that is something.
There has hardly been a mention of compo since the latest report came out - except by you. And yes, you are controlled in my opinion based on the fact that you totally ignore the bigger picture of what has happened here and prefer to lay sole blame with the paedophille priests only.

Again playing the man. 
Meaningless threads on a Saturday night - feck me I thought this was a discussion forum!
You know nothing about me, and can tell even less about my personna from this discussion forum, fyi.
I'll be interested to know where I made a "bollix" of myself??
Finally where did I - "totally ignore the bigger picture of what has happened here and prefer to lay sole blame with the paedophille priests only." - or is that you spoofing again?

P.s Still want to know the revelence of Celtic or what I said in my "late night post" that you disagreed with? Would it be where I said it was disgraceful or maybe when I said we want justice?

You wrote the following on the "right i'm pissed, are you?" thread.

"Not pissed tonight  , but here's a wee message for Myles, seeing as he ignored my last post on the - beat the Catholics thread - 

Catholic Templum silicis , quod mos barbaricus vos. "

Given the gravity of the issues on this thread I initially decided not to bother with a simpleton like you but against my better judgement I will explain my post in the small hope you might understand it.

Your first line posted (Jesus lads how many times can youse rehash this stuff!) was offensive, insensitive to victims, childish and dismissive of this very important issue - the issue being the rape, molestation and abuse of innocent children by paedophille priests and the cover up of the same acts for decades by the bishops, cardinals and vatican. You then continued to dismiss the discussion by claiming "some on here are just using this as an excuse for their anti catholic/church tirades" which is unfair as by and large people on here are commenting on the issues uncovered in 2 different independent reports!

You posted this idiotic post at 2-30am after being out drinking - correct? I have to ask myself what sort of person avoids this thread until the drink is on board and then comes on belittling it. Perhaps such a person would be better of slobbering on the Celtic thread like you normally do, that is the only reference I made to your beloved Celtic.

Where have you made a bollix of yourself? Well here for a start. Plus your idiotic drunken late night threads are also embarrassing and say more about the poster than the topics for the most part.

You totally ignore the bigger picture by failing to comment on the cover up and how it goes all the way to the center of power in the catholic church in the vatican. You say you want justice but you don't bother to say what that means. For example, would you agree that the papal nuncio should be expelled from the country for failing to even bother respond to a commission set up to examine abuse perpetrated by its member within this Sovereign Republic. Should all bishops be prosecuted for failing to pass information to the gardai? What is this justice you want? Justice and mealy mouthed statements about it being "disgraceful" mean nothing unless you support the actions required.

Finally, you go onto another thread and belittle the whole topic again by hilariously renaming this thread from "clerical abuse" to "beat the catholics". Quite frankly you are a pathetic excuse of an irishman and after typing all the above I know I am only wasting my time with a buffoon like you.

Myles again with all the personal abuse - says more about you then me lad!
I have stated that I think what has happened is abhorant and the perpitrators have to pay for their sins, but it's up to the relevant authorities to take action, can't be much clearer then that. Now you and I will not agree on other factors about the church so we'll leave it at that.
But seriously you have some fair points but the insults detract from your posts. And as for "late night threads" being embarassing, ffs its a discussion board, and it would be a pretty boring one without all sorts of thread topics, plus plenty seem happy emough to use them. Just avoid opening them if they piss you off so much.

[johnneycool]

Is Bishop Murray of Limerick away over to Rome to hand in his resignation letter?

[ludermor]

I have stated that I think what has happened is abhorant and the perpitrators have to pay for their sins, but it's up to the relevant authorities to take action, can't be much clearer then that. Now you and I will not agree on other factors about the church so we'll leave it at that.

Which would be far easier if there wasnt so much covering up

[Declan]

Don't now if anyone knows this man - A Columban, eco-warrior priest and a mad Tipp hurling fan but I've met him a few times and have always founs him to be a very decent fella. Here's his letter to the Times today. Nail on the head


Madam, – Dr Vincent Twomey, SVD, called on all the bishops mentioned in the Murphy report to resign immediately (December 3rd). The reason he gave is, "they are deemed guilty of putting the interests of the institution above the safety and welfare of children".

In 2001, every diocesan bishop in the Catholic Church around the the world received a letter from the then prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, instructing them to refer complaints of clerical child sex abuse to the Congregation which would then decide how they should be dealt with. This directive from Rome, which effectively encouraged bishops to commit criminal offences in many jurisdictions, including Ireland, by not reporting the crime first to the police, certainly put the "interest of the institution above the safety and welfare of children." Will Dr Twomey be calling for Pope Benedict's resignation also? – Yours, etc,

Fr SEÁN McDONAGH,

Dalgan Park,

Navan,

Co Meath.

[muppet]

Don't now if anyone knows this man - A Columban, eco-warrior priest and a mad Tipp hurling fan but I've met him a few times and have always founs him to be a very decent fella. Here's his letter to the Times today. Nail on the head


Madam, – Dr Vincent Twomey, SVD, called on all the bishops mentioned in the Murphy report to resign immediately (December 3rd). The reason he gave is, "they are deemed guilty of putting the interests of the institution above the safety and welfare of children".

In 2001, every diocesan bishop in the Catholic Church around the the world received a letter from the then prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, instructing them to refer complaints of clerical child sex abuse to the Congregation which would then decide how they should be dealt with. This directive from Rome, which effectively encouraged bishops to commit criminal offences in many jurisdictions, including Ireland, by not reporting the crime first to the police, certainly put the "interest of the institution above the safety and welfare of children." Will Dr Twomey be calling for Pope Benedict's resignation also? – Yours, etc,

Fr SEÁN McDONAGH,

Dalgan Park,

Navan,

Co Meath.

I'm not sure I quite understand Father McDonagh. Is he saying that,

a) of course Dr. Twomey should be also calling for the resignation of the Pope?

or

b) is he pointing out that if Dr. Twomey's logic is thought through further, then he would be also calling for the resignation of the Pope, which of course would be ridiculous.

I hope it is a).

[orangeman]

This appeared in yesterday's Indo and was the subject of a piece by Gerry Ryan last week :


By JIM CUSACK


Sunday December 06 2009

The well-known artist and former journalist Brighid McLaughlin has joined broadcaster Gerry Ryan in calling for the reopening of the investigation into the murder of 10-year-old Sligo girl Bernadette Connolly, which gardai said was stopped after high level intervention by the Catholic Church.

More than any other journalist, McLaughlin pursued the case of the little girl who was abducted, raped and murdered in Sligo in 1970.

Detectives involved in the case said they met a wall of silence when they tried to interview clergy, and later discovered that a copy of the murder file which named two priests as suspects was handed over to the Catholic hierarchy of the time.

A suspect in the 1970 case, Fr Columba from the Passionist Order, which had a house in the area, was sent to a mission in Africa during the early stages of the investigation and detectives were ordered to drop inquiries into possible clerical involvement in the rape and murder of the girl.

The publication of the Murphy report into abuse and cover-up in the Dublin Diocese, and the renewed appeals of Bernadette Connolly's sisters for the case to be re-examined, spurred Brighid McLaughlin to revisit the case, and she is writing to the Garda Commissioner Fachtna Murphy offering the extensive notes and files she retains on the case.

"I was most frustrated about what happened in the Bernadette Connolly case. I confronted Columba on his first visit to Ireland 28 years after the murder. He brazened it out and tried to stop me," she said yesterday.

Bernadette Connolly's sister, Kerrie Aldridge, appealed for the reopening of the case on Gerry Ryan's show last week, supported by her two other sisters, Patricia Connolly and Anne Guilfoyle.

The suspicions surrounding Fr Columba, who died in 2001, centred on his whereabouts at the time of the murder.

The Passionist Monastery van had been seen in the area at the time and the local garage owner told gardai that he had been called out to fill it with petrol on the evening of the murder. The murder occurred while most of the village of Collooney, where the Connollys lived, were glued to TV sets watching the return of the Apollo spacecraft from the Moon.

Last week a senior detective in the cases was quoted in the Evening Herald as saying: "I got this instruction to re-open the file, to bring Fr Columba in. I had been told that Fr Columba was in Mount Argus [the Passionist monastery in Dublin] and was told to prepare my interview. The night before I was told to forget about it, I was told this was coming right from the top,"

The Murphy report was critical of the actions of Garda Commissioner Daniel Costigan, who it found had intervened to prevent investigations into clerical abusers in Dublin. Retired gardai who spoke to the Sunday Independent last week concurred with the findings of Judge Murphy that certain gardai were effectively under the control of the Catholic Church.

One said: "Look, there is no point giving out. It was a totally different world. The Church was all-powerful; the word of a bishop was law in Ireland. Even if a young fella told his parents [about abuse by a priest] they would be afraid they would be excommunicated. They were frightened, they were very afraid.

"There was a sergeant down in Wicklow who had a case to do with the Church and abuse. He was nearly excommunicated. I remember in [the early Seventies] a guard in Dublin who wasn't afraid to take a case. He was nearly sacked. The sheer power of the Church . . . people have no idea now."

Another stated that the tide of Church power came to an end only in 1994 when the publicity over the case of the multiple rapist and abuser Fr Sean Fortune in Wexford was followed by a series of revelations about other priests.

The Fortune case was most prominently highlighted in the Sunday Independent at the time by Veronica Guerin, who devoted a large amount of time and energy in pursuing Bishop Brendan Comiskey about why Fortune was moved from parish to parish each time his abuse was exposed.

The then chief superintendent in Crime and Security at Garda Headquarters, Pat Byrne, who was later to become Garda Commissioner, was among the senior gardai to take a strong line against the Catholic hierarchy when they refused to disclose the whereabouts of three priests wanted for questioning, including Fr Thomas Naughton in Dublin, who was also moved from parish to parish to conceal his abuse.

Byrne, according to colleagues, was intent on issuing a warrant on senior clergy for misprision of felony, the offence of obstructing justice.

It was, according to Byrne's colleagues, only then when the hierarchy, faced with possible arrest, relented and began giving up the whereabouts of suspected abusers.

Naughton was subsequently sentence to three years' imprisonment for the sexual abuse of boys in his care.

- JIM CUSACK

Sunday Independent

[Jim_Murphy_74]

I'm not sure I quite understand Father McDonagh. Is he saying that,

a) of course Dr. Twomey should be also calling for the resignation of the Pope?

or

b) is he pointing out that if Dr. Twomey's logic is thought through further, then he would be also calling for the resignation of the Pope, which of course would be ridiculous.

I hope it is a).

The direct link between the Vatican, via the Council of the Doctrine of Faith (which the current Papa Benny ran at one stage) was made by the Fern's report and tested in the Irish High Court by Colm O'Gorman.  The High Court ruling actually opened the way to sue the Pope but I guess you'd need a lot of cash.  The crux of the case was a document that this Council produced (signed off by Pope John XXIII) called "Crimens Sollicitationis".  The Church lawyers argued that this was really to protect the confessional but the court ruled that it was in fact a secrecy guide for hiding these despicable crimes.

Given that they can't get the lad in Limerick to step down despite the Ryan report, I'd say they have little buisness going after Benny.

[muppet]

I'm not sure I quite understand Father McDonagh. Is he saying that,

a) of course Dr. Twomey should be also calling for the resignation of the Pope?

or

b) is he pointing out that if Dr. Twomey's logic is thought through further, then he would be also calling for the resignation of the Pope, which of course would be ridiculous.

I hope it is a).

The direct link between the Vatican, via the Council of the Doctrine of Faith (which the current Papa Benny ran at one stage) was made by the Fern's report and tested in the Irish High Court by Colm O'Gorman.  The High Court ruling actually opened the way to sue the Pope but I guess you'd need a lot of cash.  The crux of the case was a document that this Council produced (signed off by Pope John XXIII) called "Crimens Sollicitationis".  The Church lawyers argued that this was really to protect the confessional but the court ruled that it was in fact a secrecy guide for hiding these despicable crimes.

Given that they can't get the lad in Limerick to step down despite the Ryan report, I'd say they have little buisness going after Benny.

Calling for his resignation is one thing, trying to go to court here to remove a head of state elsewhere is something altogether different. 

[Declan]

a) of course Dr. Twomey should be also calling for the resignation of the Pope?

That would be my reading of it

[rossie mad]

Just typing to say i held brief debates with two local preists over the last two weeks on the recent reports to emerge.

I had spoken to my local pp before on the matter of sex abuse in the church many times and although he had towed the party line in the past by taking the line of prayer and reflection which is needed as well in these situations his recent conversation with me was one of shock,a level of lonliness being felt and one of helplessness as well.

He listened to my thoughts on the church cleaning the ranks and portraying a better more modern image and although agreed with most of them in principal he did believe they would take much change and time for any to take place.

He was upset with the level of cover up that had taken place and was very honest in saying what about other major diocese with these events hanging over them?
He did agree that the church is at a major crossroads in the country and it will take a major shift in policy for it to take the right move.

He believes that the level of authority that his superiors had in the 60 years after the foundation of the state is having a very damaging effect on the modern church and that the invincibility the church felt it had physically was a contributing factor to these events.

He is a honest man and has done untold good for this parish and especially its youth.
He was a driving force behind all the sporting organisations in the parish for years as well as a big supporter of the youth of the parish and was very genourous personally to these organisations financially.I kinda of felt sorry for him.

my other conversation was with a younger preist with a big background in theology and church practices.

He was sympathyic to my views of change but said that to much would do harm to both the church and its followers.
He was aware that certain figures in the church should resign immediately but a mass clear out like i suggested was simply not workable because of the lack of personnell in the church.
When i suggested tackling the celibacy problem he didnt expect it to be discussed in this popes lifetime.

He did however concede that the church should bring in their own laws in terms of relationships with people in their parish and especially children such as constant supervision while in the vicinity of schools or sporting organisations as well as another adult being present in terms of altar boys/girls as well as altar boys not allowed into the sacrestan unless accompanied by a parent.
Also a strict mental assesment on all clergy being undertaken and any suspect members being placed in treatment centres or placed under supervision.

He was suprised that i challenged him on this issue and not many lay people did because of fear and was actually disappointed that they didnt.

He believes that dedicated church members should be asked of their views on these matters and any recommendations taken into account but he did concede that the old superiority complex the church has is stiffling it and wishes that it serves the people in their needs and not believe the people should serve it.

After these debates with these two men i believe tha these two preists may be in the miniority in the clergy in this country and change on a seismic level will probably not happen until the time the church finds itself on its knees.

Whatever change will happen in the near future remains to be seen

[theskull1]

None of youse watching prime time?

The generational differences of opinion is fairly striking.

[theskull1]

http://www.nme.com/video/id/7KnGNOiFll4/search/scroobius

[johnneycool]

Just typing to say i held brief debates with two local preists over the last two weeks on the recent reports to emerge.

I had spoken to my local pp before on the matter of sex abuse in the church many times and although he had towed the party line in the past by taking the line of prayer and reflection which is needed as well in these situations his recent conversation with me was one of shock,a level of lonliness being felt and one of helplessness as well.

He listened to my thoughts on the church cleaning the ranks and portraying a better more modern image and although agreed with most of them in principal he did believe they would take much change and time for any to take place.

He was upset with the level of cover up that had taken place and was very honest in saying what about other major diocese with these events hanging over them?
He did agree that the church is at a major crossroads in the country and it will take a major shift in policy for it to take the right move.

He believes that the level of authority that his superiors had in the 60 years after the foundation of the state is having a very damaging effect on the modern church and that the invincibility the church felt it had physically was a contributing factor to these events.

He is a honest man and has done untold good for this parish and especially its youth.
He was a driving force behind all the sporting organisations in the parish for years as well as a big supporter of the youth of the parish and was very genourous personally to these organisations financially.I kinda of felt sorry for him.

my other conversation was with a younger preist with a big background in theology and church practices.

He was sympathyic to my views of change but said that to much would do harm to both the church and its followers.
He was aware that certain figures in the church should resign immediately but a mass clear out like i suggested was simply not workable because of the lack of personnell in the church.
When i suggested tackling the celibacy problem he didnt expect it to be discussed in this popes lifetime.

He did however concede that the church should bring in their own laws in terms of relationships with people in their parish and especially children such as constant supervision while in the vicinity of schools or sporting organisations as well as another adult being present in terms of altar boys/girls as well as altar boys not allowed into the sacrestan unless accompanied by a parent.
Also a strict mental assesment on all clergy being undertaken and any suspect members being placed in treatment centres or placed under supervision.

He was suprised that i challenged him on this issue and not many lay people did because of fear and was actually disappointed that they didnt.

He believes that dedicated church members should be asked of their views on these matters and any recommendations taken into account but he did concede that the old superiority complex the church has is stiffling it and wishes that it serves the people in their needs and not believe the people should serve it.

After these debates with these two men i believe tha these two preists may be in the miniority in the clergy in this country and change on a seismic level will probably not happen until the time the church finds itself on its knees.

Whatever change will happen in the near future remains to be seen

I don't think the church needs to bring in its own laws, it just needs to abide by the laws of the land like the rest of us.

[orangeman]

Irish bishops ask for forgiveness 

The Murphy report found church leaders had covered up child abuse
Irish bishops have asked to be forgiven for the "failure of moral leadership" identified by a report into clerical child abuse in Dublin archdiocese.

Catholic bishops issued the apology as they met for their winter general meeting at Maynooth in County Kildare.

The bishops said all normal business was suspended on the first day of their two-day conference, as they turned their "full attention" to the report.

The Murphy report found that church authorities had covered up child abuse.

Also known as the "Commission of Investigation Report into the Archdiocese of Dublin", the Murphy report stated that Catholic leaders had prioritised the preservation of the church's reputation above the welfare and safety of the children in their care.

'Shamed'

On Wednesday, the bishops issued a statement in which they said they were "deeply shocked by the scale and depravity of abuse" which was described in the report.

They also said that they were "shamed by the extent to which child sexual abuse was covered up in the archdiocese of Dublin".

The bishops added that they recognised the report's findings indicated a culture of cover-up was "widespread" in the church.

"We, as bishops, apologise to all those who were abused by priests as children, their families and to all people who feel rightly outraged and let down by the failure of moral leadership and accountability that emerges," they said.

At the Maynooth conference, the bishops agreed to ask the National Board for Safeguarding Children in the Catholic Church to engage with government departments and statutory authorities to ensure that the church's current policies in relation to safeguarding of children "represent best practice" and that allegations of abuse are "properly handled".

'Painful situation'

They will ask the board to work with civic authorities on both sides of the Irish border.

The bishops added that the Murphy report had raised "very important issues" for the Catholic Church in Ireland, including the functioning of their own conference and questions of how lay people could be "more effectively involved".

The statement said the bishops would give "further detailed consideration" to those issues.

The Pope has summoned the leader of the Catholic Church in Ireland, Cardinal Sean Brady and the Archbishop of Dublin, Diarmuid Martin, to Rome to brief him on the "painful situation of the church in Ireland" following the publication of the Murphy report.

They will meet with Pope Benedict on Friday.

[muppet]

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/pope-stops-short-of-outright-apology-for-clerical-abuse-437896.html

Pope stops short of outright apology for clerical abuse

Read more: http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/pope-stops-short-of-outright-apology-for-clerical-abuse-437896.html#ixzz0ZOH6rnP5

Pope Benedict XVI today has expressed his "profound regret at the actions of some members of the clergy".

Following a meeting with Cardinal Sean Brady and Archbishop Diarmuid Martin in the Vatican regarding the Irish Commission of Investigation's Report into the Catholic Archdiocese of Dublin, the pontiff said that he "shares the outrage, betrayal and shame felt by so many of the faithful in Ireland", but did not use the words "sorry" or "apologise" in the statement issued.

Last Wednesday, the Irish Catholic Bishops' Conference formally apologised over abuse and mishandling of allegations in the Dublin Archdiocese.

The Vatican said after the 90-minute talks that the letter to the faithful of Ireland "will clearly indicate the initiatives that are to be taken in response to the situation."

The statement in full:

Today the Holy Father held a meeting with senior Irish Bishops and high-ranking members of the Roman Curia. He listened to their concerns and discussed with them the traumatic events that were presented in the Irish Commission of Investigation's Report into the Catholic Archdiocese of Dublin.

After careful study of the Report, the Holy Father was deeply disturbed and distressed by its contents. He wishes once more to express his profound regret at the actions of some members of the clergy who have betrayed their solemn promises to God, as well as the trust placed in them by the victims and their families, and by society at large.

The Holy Father shares the outrage, betrayal and shame felt by so many of the faithful in Ireland, and he is united with them in prayer at this difficult time in the life of the Church.

His Holiness asks Catholics in Ireland and throughout the world to join him in praying for the victims, their families and all those affected by these heinous crimes.

He assures all concerned that the Church will continue to follow this grave matter with the closest attention in order to understand better how these shameful events came to pass and how best to develop effective and secure strategies to prevent any recurrence.

The Holy See takes very seriously the central issues raised by the Report, including questions concerning the governance of local Church leaders with ultimate responsibility for the pastoral care of children.

The Holy Father intends to address a Pastoral Letter to the faithful of Ireland in which he will clearly indicate the initiatives that are to be taken in response to the situation.

Finally, His Holiness encourages all those who have dedicated their lives in generous service to children to persevere in their good works in imitation of Christ the Good Shepherd.

Read more: http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/pope-stops-short-of-outright-apology-for-clerical-abuse-437896.html#ixzz0ZOHDT8R4