Clerical abuse!

[charlieTully]

How could anyone sit in a chapel and listen to a letter from a **** like that who's as bad as those doing the abusing.

If a local youth club or GAA club was involved in raping children and the same people who covered it up were in charge, would it still get community suport? Wouldn't darken the door. As early posters said, GOD is everywhere and the church have no monopoly on it. The devil, or evil, sure has been in the church alrite.   

Is this confined to Ireland alone or is it on a global scale, has there been similar scandals in other countries involving the catholic church?

[AFS]

How could anyone sit in a chapel and listen to a letter from a **** like that who's as bad as those doing the abusing.

If a local youth club or GAA club was involved in raping children and the same people who covered it up were in charge, would it still get community suport? Wouldn't darken the door. As early posters said, GOD is everywhere and the church have no monopoly on it. The devil, or evil, sure has been in the church alrite.   

Is this confined to Ireland alone or is it on a global scale, has there been similar scandals in other countries involving the catholic church?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_sex_abuse_cases_by_country

[J70]

Jesus lads how many times can youse rehash this stuff!

What happened was disgraceful and everyone wants justice, but some on here are just using this as an excuse for their anti catholic/church tirades. Let the courts settle it. As for the compo, FFS have we all turned American!

GDA, if you have a problem with something specific someone says, then address it. Otherwise, who are you to try to dictate what can and cannot be discussed on this board?

Don't think I'd have a problem with financial compensation myself. Send the animals themselves to prison, but the church itself has to pay a penalty for their collusion. Hit them where it hurts and they'll be less likely to behave in that way in the future.

[ardmhachaabu]

In my opinion, good people did wrong in covering up, they did so for the best reasons in the world in their view at that time.  They were wrong in what they did, I have no problem in saying that just like I have no problem in saying that any member of religious life who obtained that position because they were/are a paedophile should be prosecuted and the key thrown away

That doesn't mean the entire Church was responsible.

I read actual figures recently and am wondering if the figures I read were correct.  Can anyone quantify the number of priests and victims involved in the island of Ireland? (Just want to be sure of my facts)

On a personal note, I am not surprised one bit about this scandal involving the Church worldwide.  I knew something was always going to happen to make people question their faith and their beliefs, all Catholics knew it - none of us knew what fashion it would take and the fact that it involves children makes it that much harder to bear witness to the Catholic faith in its wake.  I am still a Catholic, I was at Mass this morning with my wife and son and the priest spoke of the deep sense of shame that he and his fellow clergy feel at the report's findings and other abuses which have occurred at the hands of so-called religious people.

None of it means the entire Catholic Church is culpable, individuals within the Church, including at least one Papal Nuncio should have questions to answer and jail terms to serve

I know I will be lambasted for this but this is what happened regarding the cover-up, in my opinion; priests, bishops, at least one papal nuncio all knew what was going on by different priests - the reason nothing happened to them is that the bishops took the decision not to rock the boat for fear of causing damage to the Church.

Yes, they were wrong and had they all acted much earlier, this could have been nipped in the bud.  That didn't happen. Gardai, PSNI, various government departments both north and south of the border knew what was happening and let it continue.   

[muppet]

In my opinion, good people did wrong in covering up, they did so for the best reasons in the world in their view at that time.  They were wrong in what they did, I have no problem in saying that just like I have no problem in saying that any member of religious life who obtained that position because they were/are a paedophile should be prosecuted and the key thrown away

That doesn't mean the entire Church was responsible.

I read actual figures recently and am wondering if the figures I read were correct.  Can anyone quantify the number of priests and victims involved in the island of Ireland? (Just want to be sure of my facts)

On a personal note, I am not surprised one bit about this scandal involving the Church worldwide.  I knew something was always going to happen to make people question their faith and their beliefs, all Catholics knew it - none of us knew what fashion it would take and the fact that it involves children makes it that much harder to bear witness to the Catholic faith in its wake.  I am still a Catholic, I was at Mass this morning with my wife and son and the priest spoke of the deep sense of shame that he and his fellow clergy feel at the report's findings and other abuses which have occurred at the hands of so-called religious people.

None of it means the Catholic Church is culpable, individuals within the Church, including at least one Papal Nuncio should have questions to answer.

I know I will be lambasted for this but this is what happened regarding the cover-up, in my opinion; priests, bishops, at least one papal nuncio all knew what was going on by different priests - the reason nothing happened to them is that the bishops took the decision not to rock the boat for fear of causing damage to the Church.

Yes, they were wrong and had they all acted much earlier, this could have been nipped in the bud.  That didn't happen. Gardai, PSNI, various government departments both north and south of the border knew what was happening and let it continue.

We didn't agree earlier but IMHO that is a very reasonable position.

However I think you may underestimate how many decision makers knew about it, for example the former Cardinal Ratzinger is up to his neck in it allegedly. But in the absence of the Vatican coming clean, that is really only speculation and that in itself is a huge part of the problem.

Time to come clean and start on long the road to rebuilding trust.

[pintsofguinness]

I am still a Catholic, I was at Mass this morning with my wife and son and the priest spoke of the deep sense of shame that he and his fellow clergy feel at the report's findings and other abuses which have occurred at the hands of so-called religious people.

You probably weren't in one of the chapels where Donal Murray's letter was read out but how could you sit and listen to that from someone who's reported to be one of the ones responsible for covering it up? and if the Church isn't responsible and has a deep sense of shame etc, how are people like that still in their positions?

[ardmhachaabu]

I am still a Catholic, I was at Mass this morning with my wife and son and the priest spoke of the deep sense of shame that he and his fellow clergy feel at the report's findings and other abuses which have occurred at the hands of so-called religious people.

You probably weren't in one of the chapels where Donal Murray's letter was read out but how could you sit and listen to that from someone who's reported to be one of the ones responsible for covering it up? and if the Church isn't responsible and has a deep sense of shame etc, how are people like that still in their positions?

I don't know if that letter was read out this morning, we got there late so I only got to hear his homily

pints, I don't know how these people are still there.  I daresay the same people are there in the Gardai, PSNI, civil service in both jurisdictions ...

[pintsofguinness]

So how can you say the church is not responsible when it's the church leaders who are keeping those people in their positions and when the Vatican's silence is deafening!

[ardmhachaabu]

We didn't agree earlier but IMHO that is a very reasonable position.

However I think you may underestimate how many decision makers knew about it, for example the former Cardinal Ratzinger is up to his neck in it allegedly. But in the absence of the Vatican coming clean, that is really only speculation and that in itself is a huge part of the problem.

Time to come clean and start on long the road to rebuilding trust.

I thought it was time that my position wasn't misunderstood, it's hard to think when a 10 month old child is running round the room mad - I got time today so thought I would clarify

[ardmhachaabu]

So how can you say the church is not responsible when it's the church leaders who are keeping those people in their positions and when the Vatican's silence is deafening!

To me the church is a lot more than the clergy, the church is everyone who is a Catholic, in deed as well as in name.

[muppet]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/apr/24/children.childprotection

Pope 'obstructed' sex abuse inquiry
Confidential letter reveals Ratzinger ordered bishops to keep allegations secret
Jamie Doward, religious affairs correspondent
The Observer,    Sunday 24 April 2005 09.58 BST

Pope Benedict XVI faced claims last night he had 'obstructed justice' after it emerged he issued an order ensuring the church's investigations into child sex abuse claims be carried out in secret.
The order was made in a confidential letter, obtained by The Observer, which was sent to every Catholic bishop in May 2001.

It asserted the church's right to hold its inquiries behind closed doors and keep the evidence confidential for up to 10 years after the victims reached adulthood. The letter was signed by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, who was elected as John Paul II's successor last week.

Lawyers acting for abuse victims claim it was designed to prevent the allegations from becoming public knowledge or being investigated by the police. They accuse Ratzinger of committing a 'clear obstruction of justice'.

The letter, 'concerning very grave sins', was sent from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the Vatican office that once presided over the Inquisition and was overseen by Ratzinger.

It spells out to bishops the church's position on a number of matters ranging from celebrating the eucharist with a non-Catholic to sexual abuse by a cleric 'with a minor below the age of 18 years'. Ratzinger's letter states that the church can claim jurisdiction in cases where abuse has been 'perpetrated with a minor by a cleric'.

The letter states that the church's jurisdiction 'begins to run from the day when the minor has completed the 18th year of age' and lasts for 10 years.

It orders that 'preliminary investigations' into any claims of abuse should be sent to Ratzinger's office, which has the option of referring them back to private tribunals in which the 'functions of judge, promoter of justice, notary and legal representative can validly be performed for these cases only by priests'.

'Cases of this kind are subject to the pontifical secret,' Ratzinger's letter concludes. Breaching the pontifical secret at any time while the 10-year jurisdiction order is operating carries penalties, including the threat of excommunication.

The letter is referred to in documents relating to a lawsuit filed earlier this year against a church in Texas and Ratzinger on behalf of two alleged abuse victims. By sending the letter, lawyers acting for the alleged victims claim the cardinal conspired to obstruct justice.

Daniel Shea, the lawyer for the two alleged victims who discovered the letter, said: 'It speaks for itself. You have to ask: why do you not start the clock ticking until the kid turns 18? It's an obstruction of justice.'

Father John Beal, professor of canon law at the Catholic University of America, gave an oral deposition under oath on 8 April last year in which he admitted to Shea that the letter extended the church's jurisdiction and control over sexual assault crimes.

The Ratzinger letter was co-signed by Archbishop Tarcisio Bertone who gave an interview two years ago in which he hinted at the church's opposition to allowing outside agencies to investigate abuse claims.

'In my opinion, the demand that a bishop be obligated to contact the police in order to denounce a priest who has admitted the offence of paedophilia is unfounded,' Bertone said.

Shea criticised the order that abuse allegations should be investigated only in secret tribunals. 'They are imposing procedures and secrecy on these cases. If law enforcement agencies find out about the case, they can deal with it. But you can't investigate a case if you never find out about it. If you can manage to keep it secret for 18 years plus 10 the priest will get away with it,' Shea added.

A spokeswoman in the Vatican press office declined to comment when told about the contents of the letter. 'This is not a public document, so we would not talk about it,' she said.

[longrunsthefox]

In my opinion, good people did wrong in covering up, they did so for the best reasons in the world in their view at that time.  They were wrong in what they did, I have no problem in saying that just like I have no problem in saying that any member of religious life who obtained that position because they were/are a paedophile should be prosecuted and the key thrown away

That doesn't mean the entire Church was responsible etc...

"Good people did wrong in covering up?!!  wtf... a person who covers up the rape of a child is not a good person... unbelievable statement. 

[pintsofguinness]

So how can you say the church is not responsible when it's the church leaders who are keeping those people in their positions and when the Vatican's silence is deafening!

To me the church is a lot more than the clergy, the church is everyone who is a Catholic, in deed as well as in name.

So you're happy to belong to something when it's leaders are covering up the rape of children?
Happy to have those people preach to you about the best way to live your life?

[Hardy]

In my opinion, good people did wrong in covering up, they did so for the best reasons in the world in their view at that time.  They were wrong in what they did, I have no problem in saying that just like I have no problem in saying that any member of religious life who obtained that position because they were/are a paedophile should be prosecuted and the key thrown away

That doesn't mean the entire Church was responsible etc...

"Good people did wrong in covering up?!!  wtf... a person who covers up the rape of a child is not a good person... unbelievable statement. 

Spot on, Fox.

[ardmhachaabu]

So how can you say the church is not responsible when it's the church leaders who are keeping those people in their positions and when the Vatican's silence is deafening!

To me the church is a lot more than the clergy, the church is everyone who is a Catholic, in deed as well as in name.

So you're happy to belong to something when it's leaders are covering up the rape of children?
Happy to have those people preach to you about the best way to live your life?

At this point in my life pints, I know enough to say that my faith is what's most important to me - I am not about to stop going to Mass because of what has been revealed - still not sure about numbers involved here - if the report I read today was accurate then you could be excused for thinking it was a storm in a teacup, in terms of the number of priests through both jurisdictions and amount of victims in both jurisdictions.

Of course I would have preferred this not to have happened but I can't deny it has.