government grants to GAA players -- not getting into prefessionalism etc

[INDIANA]

The association changes fundamentally though Zulu- that's the point you're missing. Under your scenario where clubs don't exist for county players you get a professional transfer market and professional players with cork players playing for dublin, kerry for galway etc etc. They don;t have to worry about club championship so Dessie and Co will argue that there is no requirement for the amateur status.
There is no need for the grassroots to be supported by the parent organisation ie the GAA. Since the then "professional" players generate all the income and that they don't have a club allegiance or any particular county allegiance - then they will claim they are entitled to a serious cut of all gate receipts since the people are there to watch them and Gaa clubs will get next to nothing.
County players playing for their clubs is the glue that binds the association together. I can see the idea behind what you're saying but i've seen it with AIL rugby and its been a disaster , an absolute disaster. The clubs get next to nothing from the IRFU anymore because the IRFU have to pay the players. They are left struggling to raise funds with gates of less than your average senior club championship game in Dublin. Nobody has any interest in the club rugby game because they watch the provincial teams. Just look at Limerick rugby- shannon used to get 10,000 at club games -they now get 300.
If the county players are removed from the club scene- it will go the same way - absolutely 100% that is the way it will go. Bar the die-hards the club scene will die a death. The county scene will be reduced to 12 teams, made up of full time professionals, with a healthy transfer market and the association that we had will be gone. But sure it;s on its way anyway.

[Zulu]

Lads I know what you're saying and I agree with much of it but I do think we need to address where we are going and how we want to get there. The problem is that we are all coming from slightly different perspectives, POG is coming from the 6 counties, Indiana is coming from Dublin and I'm coming from Munster. Not only that but different counties from the same province can have different objectives. I just feel that we need to be realistic and sooner or later that will mean a seperation of club and county football and hurling. And while I accept that that may lead to a semi-professional IC scene maybe that is the only viable option. For the record I'm entirely opposed to a professional GAA and I'm only trying to paint a possible future scenario.

[pintsofguinness]

Lads I know what you're saying and I agree with much of it but I do think we need to address where we are going and how we want to get there.

Look there are a number of issues that need addressing, but will it happen? probably not, we just keep burying our heads in the sand and hope the problems go away and I'm not even talking about the GPA.  We'll probably start to talk about them when it's too late. 

[magpie seanie]

Indiana is right. That's where we're going. Its just a pity it will happen without a proper debate or decision to go there. A small % of the GAA membership will force their agenda along 'til we end up there and not enough people will stand up and shout stop. At least Zulu has the honesty to say that he thinks county players shouldn't play for their clubs.

[Zulu]

County players only playing county football is nonsense. That'll never happen.

It's happening already to a large degree, like I said we all come from different backgrounds so some of you might have a different experience but I haven't seen any of our county players yet. And even if they did turn up I'd tell them to just watch the session as they will benefit more from the break than the training. I should clarify that I don't want county players to only play county but I think it might be coming and there are advantages for the clubs if it does. As a club player and coach I'm sick to death of going from one week to the next without knowing if we are playing or not. And if the county team draw a championship game the whole thing goes to pot, we are the only sport in the world where the very best players are expected to continue playing simultaneously at the top level and a lower level. This also has the effect of increasing the levels of prepartion that club teams have to engage in, I'm not saying seperating club and county is the solution but I am saying it should be on the table, to not consider it would be foolish.

[Maguire01]

But could this not just mean the strongest clubs in each county being amongst the weakest?  Imagine Crossmaglen without the Armagh county players - would they be winning 12 county titles in a row?  Similarly, what kind of force would Clontibret be without the Monaghan contingent? Examples could go on and on.  Could this not lead to serious resentment?

[pintsofguinness]

I'm sick to death of going from one week to the next without knowing if we are playing or not. And if the county team draw a championship game the whole thing goes to pot

I would say that's more of a fixture issue that needs addressing.
You keep saying that we're there only sport that expects players to play at two levels, rugby and soccer, to name two, expect there players to play at club and international level and expect their players to balance those commitments - what's wrong with the GAA doing the same?  I can't see how it is feasible to have an IC tier alone when most players will only play the league games and maybe only two championship games. 

[Zulu]

I would say that's more of a fixture issue that needs addressing.
 

Well yes that is certainly part of the problem but with minor, U21 and senior IC championships running through the summer it can be hard for CB's to fix games with any confidence. And if the senior county team are going well then the whole thing is often shut down until they are knocked out.

You keep saying that we're there only sport that expects players to play at two levels, rugby and soccer, to name two, expect there players to play at club and international level and expect their players to balance those commitments - what's wrong with the GAA doing the same?

In fairness POG there is no comparison there. For starters the other two are professional sports and secondly the world cup etc. are played during the club off season. Anyway you seem to be looking at this from only the inter county players perspective, I think it is the club player who will really benefit from having a set season that can be played regardless of who his county team is doing. 

I can't see how it is feasible to have an IC tier alone when most players will only play the league games and maybe only two championship games.

Well obviously it would entail a changing of the current structures, maybe playing the league on a home and away basis with the All Ireland played on a strict knock out basis.

[pintsofguinness]

Well yes that is certainly part of the problem but with minor, U21 and senior IC championships running through the summer it can be hard for CB's to fix games with any confidence. And if the senior county team are going well then the whole thing is often shut down until they are knocked out.

It's not a CB problem anymore it's an area the GAA, as a whole, needs to address immediately because it can't last much longer. 

In fairness POG there is no comparison there. For starters the other two are professional sports and secondly the world cup etc. are played during the club off season. Anyway you seem to be looking at this from only the inter county players perspective, I think it is the club player who will really benefit from having a set season that can be played regardless of who his county team is doing.

I fully realise the annoyance of a club player but it's hardly fair on a club who have developed players only to lose them.  Rubgy and Soccer have their fixtures sorted out to accomodate players playing in both codes and there's no reason the GAA can't do the same.  For example, we can easily introduce extra time to all championship games meaning very few would need to be replayed, this would sovle a lot of problems but as usual all we're interested in is the money a replay will generate! That's not before we talk about going back to a simple knockout championship which would again solve a lot of problems but again we're only interested in the cash. 
As you said we need to decide where we want to go because the current situation won't last and that's even before we talk about pay for play.

[believebelive]

We are an association obsessed with money. Yes this money goes back into the clubs but is the way things are set up at the moment healthy for the association as a whole?
We need to reduce the inter county season to five months and have a separate club season which lasts five months and a two month off season. Our obsession with the inter county game and its promotion is doing us more harm than good.
Yesterday at Congres Clare proposed that the All Ireland finals in football and hurling be finished by the first Sunday in September to free up more times for clubs. Director General Duffy spoke on this and said it was bad because promoting the sports was so important. Rubbish.There is at least a four wee break between the all ireland semis and final for each team. How are we promoting the game in these weeks? Shorten the season and have less breaks between games, simple solution.
Two separate seasons would allow county players to play for their clubs and give them the same commitment that they give their counties. People say the standard would drop but I doubt it and if anything I think a system such as I have outlined would benefit players and proling their careers. Wat is the average age of an inter county squad now. Compare it to twenty years ago. We are on the road to the dissolution of our clubs and the complete burnout of our 'best resources' - our county players.

[orangeman]

Zulu I think you're comments just speak volumes about your attitude, many in the gaa, myself included, would be screaming out for something to be done to address the issues in club football/hurling -  one of them being to allow county players to play a bigger part in their clubs.

That's where you're wrong POG, I currently coach the U6, 8, 10 and 12 football teams in my club aswell as the U21 and senior teams. I play with the junior football team and could play for the senior team except for the fact that I coach them. I'm also heavily involved in Sigerson football and financially support all GAA activity whenever I can regardless of the club or county. I apologise if that comes across as some sort of boast but I'm only trying to give context to my opinion. But over the past number of years I have come to the conclusion that club teams would be better off without their county players. That you automatically think that that makes you a truer GAA man than me speaks volumes for you rather than me. IC players put so much time and effort into the county team that it is unfair to expect them to train and play for their clubs during their time off from the couny team. It is also unfair for club players to be at the beck and call of the IC manager. IMO it is time for the club player top go his own way and let the county player play at his rightful leve and have club players play regular footballl.

There's going to be a new Cork president who although anti grant is a realist and realises like others that he has to back down in the face of the Donal Og, Sean Og and most recently Zulu Og - The Cork lads have reallt shown the way.

It's time we became like them and realise that whatwever the Cork players and posters say, it is best just to go along with it.

Taking county players away from the clubs is a silly idea. Rugby did this - look at the state of club rugby.
Zulu wants county players simply to play for their counties - how many games a year would players from the weaker counties get per year ? And as you have all the answers Zulu,how much could you afford to pay them ?

OM that is a rubbish post laced with childish sarcasim, your comparison to rugby is pointless and well off the mark, underage rugby has never been as strong. I'm not from Cork by the way and if you are so concerned about club players why are you bothered about how many games IC players from weak counties would get?

I apologise Zulu but that is a boast and is only put forward to excuse your " I know it all" attitude on the subject. Just beacuse you coach every team in the club doesn't entitle you to speak authoritively on each and every subject that is debated ! And by the way, why don't you give somebody else a chance to coach a team ? You might then have to see around you to realise what is going on in the real world ! 

[AZOffaly]

Interesting debate lads. I haven't contributed for a while, but it's good to see good points being raised on both sides, and a general respect for the 'other' view apart from a few of the usual suspects. Maybe the GAABoard isn't dead yet.

As to the topic, I've said on numerous occasions now that I don't have a real problem with County players being recognised by the governement, independently, as a group of elite sportsmen. I think most of us would also subscribe to that view. If the Government were paying €2,000 or €10,000 directly into the players bank accounts via the GPA or the Sports Council, I'd not have a major problem with it, and I certainly wouldn't begrudge them it.

However, my concerns have been, and continue to be, that the GAA is now an active participant in the payment of these monies. It has now embedded a culture of de facto elitism in the GAA by an unbelievably convoluted and murky mechanism by these so-called 'expenses'. Now the concept of expense, from somebody who works in Corporate Ireland plc. and does a bit of work-related travelling every so often, is that you are re-imbursed for expenses pertaining to your business travel. Be that Airfare, Hotels, Meals, Taxis, Roaming Charges, etc. etc.

Nowhere in my company expense policy, or any other company I know of, are the expenses dependent on your performance. I don't suddenly get €1 a mile expense if I get an outstanding (or elite, if you will) grade in my performance review. Expenses are just that, a reimbursement of expenses, receipted and regardless of whether the sale was made, the project was a success or whatever.

Now, back to the GAA. It appears that this concept of expenses has been twisted to mean bonus payment based on the level you reach. That is a funny definition of expenses in my book, and it is a blatant fudge to address the very valid concerns that the one off grants payments seriously undermined the amateur ethos, regardless of what Dessie Farrell or Nicky Brennan say.

I am one of those who feels that this probably does, to a certain extent at least, maintain the amateur status quo, in contrast to the original grants concept where the GAA paid out the Government money to the players, but it has been fudged now into an area that is going to be even HARDER to roll back on if/when the Government decides to curtail or remove the money, never mind increase it.

The Grants, version 1.2, were a much more obvious threat to amateurism, but this version, 1.3, is more insidious I think. And I'm afraid I'm one of the 'thin end of the wedge' lads. The GAA has shown a remarkably flexible spine in bending to the demands of the GPA, fair play to Dessie and the lads, and I feel that this is one more of those 'battles' that Dessie mentioned a few years ago on the road to an organisation, or organisations, outlined by INDIANA, magpie seanie and a couple of others.

Zulu, I know where you are coming from wrt the inter county players and their availability to the clubs, or more accurately their non-availability. I think you are solving the wrong problem though. By cutting them adrift from the clubs you are simply setting the whole semi-pro/pro agenda another step down the road. The solution is to come up with a proper approach to fixture scheduling, and to stick to it. Maybe look at the way county championships are structured. I would be against forcing players to choose whether they are county men or club men. They are club men first, and county men because they are lucky enough to be selected. They will start out as club men, and finish as club men. If they are lucky they will have a stint at county level as well, but their ties will always be to the club, and they should not be forced to sever them for 5-10 years simply because they play county ball.

[Maximus Marillius]

Zulu...fair play to you giving that much time to your club....a massive contribution by any standards...repsect. A few questions for you......does no one else in your club want to take any of the teams, I am trying to understand why you are involved with so many teams within one club....do you actually do the coaching for all of these teams or are you the dreaded water man.....or are you the chairman (or chairmans son) who feels they can trust no one else to do the job. Loook forward to understanding why you have so much on your plate...amybe everybody in your club are lazy hounds and don't want to put the work in to see the club improving

[orangeman]

Interesting debate lads. I haven't contributed for a while, but it's good to see good points being raised on both sides, and a general respect for the 'other' view apart from a few of the usual suspects. Maybe the GAABoard isn't dead yet.

As to the topic, I've said on numerous occasions now that I don't have a real problem with County players being recognised by the governement, independently, as a group of elite sportsmen. I think most of us would also subscribe to that view. If the Government were paying €2,000 or €10,000 directly into the players bank accounts via the GPA or the Sports Council, I'd not have a major problem with it, and I certainly wouldn't begrudge them it.
However, my concerns have been, and continue to be, that the GAA is now an active participant in the payment of these monies. It has now embedded a culture of de facto elitism in the GAA by an unbelievably convoluted and murky mechanism by these so-called 'expenses'. Now the concept of expense, from somebody who works in Corporate Ireland plc. and does a bit of work-related travelling every so often, is that you are re-imbursed for expenses pertaining to your business travel. Be that Airfare, Hotels, Meals, Taxis, Roaming Charges, etc. etc.

Nowhere in my company expense policy, or any other company I know of, are the expenses dependent on your performance. I don't suddenly get €1 a mile expense if I get an outstanding (or elite, if you will) grade in my performance review. Expenses are just that, a reimbursement of expenses, receipted and regardless of whether the sale was made, the project was a success or whatever.
Now, back to the GAA. It appears that this concept of expenses has been twisted to mean bonus payment based on the level you reach. That is a funny definition of expenses in my book, and it is a blatant fudge to address the very valid concerns that the one off grants payments seriously undermined the amateur ethos, regardless of what Dessie Farrell or Nicky Brennan say.

I am one of those who feels that this probably does, to a certain extent at least, maintain the amateur status quo, in contrast to the original grants concept where the GAA paid out the Government money to the players, but it has been fudged now into an area that is going to be even HARDER to roll back on if/when the Government decides to curtail or remove the money, never mind increase it.

The Grants, version 1.2, were a much more obvious threat to amateurism, but this version, 1.3, is more insidious I think. And I'm afraid I'm one of the 'thin end of the wedge' lads. The GAA has shown a remarkably flexible spine in bending to the demands of the GPA, fair play to Dessie and the lads, and I feel that this is one more of those 'battles' that Dessie mentioned a few years ago on the road to an organisation, or organisations, outlined by INDIANA, magpie seanie and a couple of others.

Zulu, I know where you are coming from wrt the inter county players and their availability to the clubs, or more accurately their non-availability. I think you are solving the wrong problem though. By cutting them adrift from the clubs you are simply setting the whole semi-pro/pro agenda another step down the road. The solution is to come up with a proper approach to fixture scheduling, and to stick to it. Maybe look at the way county championships are structured. I would be against forcing players to choose whether they are county men or club men. They are club men first, and county men because they are lucky enough to be selected. They will start out as club men, and finish as club men. If they are lucky they will have a stint at county level as well, but their ties will always be to the club, and they should not be forced to sever them for 5-10 years simply because they play county ball.

All very good points and well made and I'm in total agreement AZ -

The idea of cutting the IC players loose from clubs is plain silly and doesn't contribute in any way - Zulu and Dessie and the rest have in their minds an organisation like the Professional Soccer Players asociation in England where the players are in a union and pay a fee to Dessie every year to represent them.

[AZOffaly]

I wouldn't dream of putting words in Zulu's mouth, or letters on his keyboard for that matter , but I think he is approaching it from a different angle to what I suspect is Dessie's motivation. I think Zulu is a frustrated club manager who is saying he'd be better off without his county men, than spinning his wheels waiting for them to be available for some 'possible' fixture 3 weeks ahead. unless the County team win a match in the meantime, there's a traiining camp on, or a white goat crosses the country lane at a 45 degree angle.

I think the solution he proposes is baby and bathwater time, but I don't think he would be an advocate of professionalism in the way I suspect Dessie is. I could be wrong about that, and I could be wrong about Dessie too.