USFC Armagh v Derry, St Tiernach's Park, Clones, 19th June 2pm

[tevez]

For those who ever backed O'Rourke yesterday certainly showed yous up. Brennan totally showed him up on the line with his decisions.
How did Vincie Martin start. Hes slow useless and should be nowhere near the team and then getting him to mark Lynch. Is O'Rourke on a different planet? Lynch is a flying machine was always going to destroy him. Then he leaves him on him  to he gets injured. Brennan switched Brian Og after 10 mins. Next thing yes he was right to try and play the same way against down but after 10 15 mins a blind man could see we were having serious problems in the full back line especially with eoin bradley. He had to be double marked i.e a sweeper which we played to beat them last year. A gud manager has to be able to switch the gameplan if its not working. I have seen Mickey Harte do it so many times if his full back line getting destroyed he changes it and will bring joe mcmahon or someone back in front of them.  These games are won by small thing on the field and by decisions made on the line. Our problem is we have the weakest line probably in the country. Such a joke. Joe Brolly summed it up exactly "Paddy O'Rourke is just a bad manager."
Why did our county board employ this tube and why do they continue to employ him!
Everything and I mean every resource and every gaa person in the county should be working from now on getting McGeeney into the Armagh job for next year!!!!!!

[Applesisapples]

Thought the McDonnell saved shot followed by thr Gilligan goal was a big turning point. Armagh in it up til that point.
Stevie had anothr goal chance in the first half. Clarke would have bagged both.
Is the pressure of Captaincy weighing on McDonnell?

Spot on Stevie's decision making was poor today. Armagh missed a lot. Big difference was that Derry cut the supply to Clarke whilst Skinner had the freedom of Clones. Why o why was the spare man not set in front of Bradley?

[Applesisapples]

People should listen to Joe Brolly's remarks from yesterday he was on the money. There are a good bunch of players in Armagh at the moment, they are just all not on the panel. We are persisting with the notion that some of those who are on the panel are county standard. POR needs to look at his decision making and he needs to make some changes in personnel. I've resisted naming names to avoid them all doing a John Clarke. Congratulations to Derry best team won.

[tyroneman]

POR is wasting one of the finest squads Armagh has ever had

Compared to the 2001-2005/6 vintage that is a wildly inaccurate statement.

Armagh have a decent squad with about 4 really exceptional players, nothing more, nothing less.

[Orangemac]

Congrats to Derry. Outfought. outthought and outplayed us on the day. Hopefully Donegal can beat Tyrone this weekend to set an exciting final.

Bradley was unmarkable yesterday but he should never have been left one on one with acres of space. After 10 ns it was obvious this was Derrys tactic to rain high balls in on him. Someone should have ben dropped back.Joe Brolly is correct in saying that poor decision were made on the line, I just don't like the snide way he said it.

Things clicked for Derry on the day, goal chances missed by us and scored by Derry. Have never seen Mark Lynch play as well. Stevie McDonnell is still a class act but his goal threat seems to be on the wane. Not so much the 2 chances that he missed but the one he passed when he had a bit of space suggest a lack of confidence in front of goal.

Player for player I don't think Derry are any better than us, they were just hungrier and better organised on the day.

On a separate note real lack of atmosphere about Clones yesterday. Crowd seemd to go straight to match and home (aside from a few of the Buckfast brigade who were drunk prematch). Was talking to the barman of Cuildaire who commentated on lack of punters. Noticeable also that National anthem got to last bar without interruption.

[David McKeown]

POR is wasting one of the finest squads Armagh has ever had

Compared to the 2001-2005/6 vintage that is a wildly inaccurate statement.

Armagh have a decent squad with about 4 really exceptional players, nothing more, nothing less.

You say its inaccurate but can only name one other better squad that we have had.  I dont for a second think we have the best squad in the country but we do have a squad that should be capable of being competitive against every other team, not one that gets hammered twice in a year by other Ulster teams.  Every player who started against Down I think with the possible exception of Kieran Toner has played in an AI final at some level or other. In any squad we had between 1980 and 2002 we didnt have that level of talent and experience.  Are this squad as good as 2001-2006 possibly not but had you have looked at the Armagh squad in 2000 you probably wouldnt have thought of them as much better than the current squad.  4 of the starting line up have all stars including one former young player of the year and one player of the year, more have all ireland winners medals, that for me is one of the finest squads we have ever had.  Unfortunately in my opinion we are much weaker than the sum of our parts and a large reason for this is POR

I would say we have 5 exceptional players not many squads in the country have much better except maybe Kerry and Cork

[winsamsoon]

who would the five exceptional players be in your opinion?

[David McKeown]

who would the five exceptional players be in your opinion?

A Mallon, A Kernan (although I am probably on my own in this regard and only for his attacking prowess), C McKeever, Jamie Clarke and S McDonnell.  Certainly not the best players in the country in their positions but worthy of being thought of as well above average even at county level. imo

In hindsight exceptional may be too strong a word but I was using it because another poster had.  I would consider those 5 as being above average even by county standards.  If I was picking a 30 man squad from all ireland I would have at least 4 of those players in the squad.

[Throw ball]

My observations of the game would be as follows:

Armagh were awful, particularly tactically, I can think of very few occasions were failing tactics were changed by POR who instead choose to change players for almost identical players.  Before the game I could have told which subs were going to be used and who they were going to replace and sure enough I got 4 out of 5 of them right. When a defensive system isnt working (i.e. man for man on Lynch and Bradley) there is no point sticking with the system and continually change players without ever thinking of changing tactic.

Derry were good but not great, with the exception of Braddley and Lynch (who were excellent and allowed to be excellent) I thought Derry were ordinary to good and I would expect a big improvement in the final (which I feel will likely be needed)

Bradley is a fantastic footballer but should have been slapped by his manager for the stupid altercation with Mallon which was needlessly instigated by Bradley.  In addition Bradley is one of the cutest footballers at winning himself frees and getting opponents booked that I have ever seen.  Thats not a criticisim as winning a foul is a much a skill in the modern game as beating your man.

Brennan is a fantastic manager both tactically and interms of man management, I bumped into the Derry team when I was getting a feed after the game and they seemed very relaxed and were even having a drink or two as if the game had just been another day at the office.

POR is wasting one of the finest squads Armagh has ever had imo but we will have him for at least one more year. I may only be 26 but this was the first summer I ever booked a holiday without first ensuring it didnt clash with an Armagh game.  The reason for this is I am so disillusioned with the Armagh management.

The refereeing was very poor and highly inconsistent but made no difference to the result, the booking for Donaghy was for me harsh but what irked me more was when Clarke got fouled at the other end the cards werent as quick at coming. Also why was Diver was booked?  From where I was it looked like he kicked Toner in the face?  If he did surely thats either deliberate (and a sending off) or accidental and not even a foul?  This fudge always annoys me. Likewise with Mallon for the retaliation on Bradley

From the minor game Armagh were highly impressive and tbh the scoreline flattered Fermanagh a little as Armagh hit the crossbar three times and the Fermanagh keeper pulled of some wonderful saves.  Third straight Ulster Final for this management team (and I think for McGeown at full forward) and for me they really deserve a chance with the U21's or seniors next year.  Also I would really like to see McGeown in the senior team as he seems well able to take a score and is quite creative, he may well be worth a look in the half forward line.

Must say I think you have summarised things very well from an Armagh point of view. As for McGeown I think he really does show potential but can drift in and out of the game a bit - probably common for a young fella though. It is a great achievement for the minor management to reach 3 Ulster finals in a row and when you look at Armagh's poor minor record over the last forty years it really does show how much difference a good management team can make.

[Applesisapples]

My observations of the game would be as follows:

Armagh were awful, particularly tactically, I can think of very few occasions were failing tactics were changed by POR who instead choose to change players for almost identical players.  Before the game I could have told which subs were going to be used and who they were going to replace and sure enough I got 4 out of 5 of them right. When a defensive system isnt working (i.e. man for man on Lynch and Bradley) there is no point sticking with the system and continually change players without ever thinking of changing tactic.

Derry were good but not great, with the exception of Braddley and Lynch (who were excellent and allowed to be excellent) I thought Derry were ordinary to good and I would expect a big improvement in the final (which I feel will likely be needed)

Bradley is a fantastic footballer but should have been slapped by his manager for the stupid altercation with Mallon which was needlessly instigated by Bradley.  In addition Bradley is one of the cutest footballers at winning himself frees and getting opponents booked that I have ever seen.  Thats not a criticisim as winning a foul is a much a skill in the modern game as beating your man.

Brennan is a fantastic manager both tactically and interms of man management, I bumped into the Derry team when I was getting a feed after the game and they seemed very relaxed and were even having a drink or two as if the game had just been another day at the office.

POR is wasting one of the finest squads Armagh has ever had imo but we will have him for at least one more year. I may only be 26 but this was the first summer I ever booked a holiday without first ensuring it didnt clash with an Armagh game.  The reason for this is I am so disillusioned with the Armagh management.

The refereeing was very poor and highly inconsistent but made no difference to the result, the booking for Donaghy was for me harsh but what irked me more was when Clarke got fouled at the other end the cards werent as quick at coming. Also why was Diver was booked?  From where I was it looked like he kicked Toner in the face?  If he did surely thats either deliberate (and a sending off) or accidental and not even a foul?  This fudge always annoys me. Likewise with Mallon for the retaliation on Bradley

From the minor game Armagh were highly impressive and tbh the scoreline flattered Fermanagh a little as Armagh hit the crossbar three times and the Fermanagh keeper pulled of some wonderful saves.  Third straight Ulster Final for this management team (and I think for McGeown at full forward) and for me they really deserve a chance with the U21's or seniors next year.  Also I would really like to see McGeown in the senior team as he seems well able to take a score and is quite creative, he may well be worth a look in the half forward line.

Must say I think you have summarised things very well from an Armagh point of view. As for McGeown I think he really does show potential but can drift in and out of the game a bit - probably common for a young fella though. It is a great achievement for the minor management to reach 3 Ulster finals in a row and when you look at Armagh's poor minor record over the last forty years it really does show how much difference a good management team can make.

Yet no one is suggesting them as the next Senior Management Team why?

[NaomhBridAbú]

My observations of the game would be as follows:

Armagh were awful, particularly tactically, I can think of very few occasions were failing tactics were changed by POR who instead choose to change players for almost identical players.  Before the game I could have told which subs were going to be used and who they were going to replace and sure enough I got 4 out of 5 of them right. When a defensive system isnt working (i.e. man for man on Lynch and Bradley) there is no point sticking with the system and continually change players without ever thinking of changing tactic.

Derry were good but not great, with the exception of Braddley and Lynch (who were excellent and allowed to be excellent) I thought Derry were ordinary to good and I would expect a big improvement in the final (which I feel will likely be needed)

Bradley is a fantastic footballer but should have been slapped by his manager for the stupid altercation with Mallon which was needlessly instigated by Bradley.  In addition Bradley is one of the cutest footballers at winning himself frees and getting opponents booked that I have ever seen.  Thats not a criticisim as winning a foul is a much a skill in the modern game as beating your man.

Brennan is a fantastic manager both tactically and interms of man management, I bumped into the Derry team when I was getting a feed after the game and they seemed very relaxed and were even having a drink or two as if the game had just been another day at the office.

POR is wasting one of the finest squads Armagh has ever had imo but we will have him for at least one more year. I may only be 26 but this was the first summer I ever booked a holiday without first ensuring it didnt clash with an Armagh game.  The reason for this is I am so disillusioned with the Armagh management.

The refereeing was very poor and highly inconsistent but made no difference to the result, the booking for Donaghy was for me harsh but what irked me more was when Clarke got fouled at the other end the cards werent as quick at coming. Also why was Diver was booked?  From where I was it looked like he kicked Toner in the face?  If he did surely thats either deliberate (and a sending off) or accidental and not even a foul?  This fudge always annoys me. Likewise with Mallon for the retaliation on Bradley

From the minor game Armagh were highly impressive and tbh the scoreline flattered Fermanagh a little as Armagh hit the crossbar three times and the Fermanagh keeper pulled of some wonderful saves.  Third straight Ulster Final for this management team (and I think for McGeown at full forward) and for me they really deserve a chance with the U21's or seniors next year.  Also I would really like to see McGeown in the senior team as he seems well able to take a score and is quite creative, he may well be worth a look in the half forward line.

Must say I think you have summarised things very well from an Armagh point of view. As for McGeown I think he really does show potential but can drift in and out of the game a bit - probably common for a young fella though. It is a great achievement for the minor management to reach 3 Ulster finals in a row and when you look at Armagh's poor minor record over the last forty years it really does show how much difference a good management team can make.

Yet no one is suggesting them as the next Senior Management Team why?

I am not sure if Armagh were brilliant when they beat down, or wherther they were poor against Derry...certainly not a bad team, and certainly not a bad manager. I would give credit to Derry and Brennan for being, on the day, simply unbeatable, unmarkable, and worthu of the result...it didnt flatter them. I think that they would have beaten pretty much every other team in Ulster with that perfdormance, possible every other team on the island...that was lethal to watch.

Some of the armagh players had very bad performances, but how much of that was doen to Derry's desire adn focus, is open to question.

I just think its too easy to be harsh on the manager - Armagh will have a long summer, im sure...regardless of who they face in the qualiofiers...they will learn more from this game and they will improve. Against Down they played some of the ebst football for 5 years...didnt become a bad team, its just that derry were extraordinary...as a tyrone man, IF WE beat Donegal, and thats a big if, i would hope that Derry dont repeat their performance...ultimately, success will be judged more on consistency rather than occasional peaks...it might be that both derry adn armagh have had a peak, lets see if Derry can continue and if armagh can regroup...i think they can

[winsamsoon]

who would the five exceptional players be in your opinion?

A Mallon, A Kernan (although I am probably on my own in this regard and only for his attacking prowess), C McKeever, Jamie Clarke and S McDonnell.  Certainly not the best players in the country in their positions but worthy of being thought of as well above average even at county level. imo

In hindsight exceptional may be too strong a word but I was using it because another poster had.  I would consider those 5 as being above average even by county standards.  If I was picking a 30 man squad from all ireland I would have at least 4 of those players in the squad.

well i wouldn't have used exceptional either . I would have jamie clarke in any team in Ireland because on his day he is unmarkable if the correct ball goes in to him. I think Aaron Kernan doesn't be involved enough in the game for me and only really shows up for armagh when all things are going well but he is a decent enough player on his day. Ciaran Mc keever is all heart and certainly brings everything he has to a football pitch. The only negative is the fact that he sails to close to the wind for my liking at time and gets involved in silly things. A Mallon is a great man marker (the best Armagh have prob) he has pace and tenacity and he isn't bad on the ball either so he would be on my 30 man squad. I think Steven Mc Donnell is now past his best. He has lost a yard of pace and i certainly can't remember ever seeing him miss two one on ones with the keeper. In his defence he has prob been given a different role under POR which hasn't allowed him to focus as much on scores. But on his day he would have been in my 30 man squad aswell.

[Armaghgael]

Andy Mallon needs to be congratulated for not planting his fist in Bradleys gub, every single play Bradley made he was in his ear telling him about it, even at 8 points up, I know I wanted him to dig him.

A bet Fergal Doherty wanted Andy to as well

[3000 miles away]

from what i seen, derry had 3 shots for goals scored 3, armagh had 4 and scored 1, steven mc donnell's killer instinct infront of goal has gone, and has been gone for quite a few years, he no longer taps the ball over with either foot with the ease he used to, armagh have a good 15-17 players outside that theres not much, is billy joe any better a player than brain mallon or even stephen kernan, we need a playmaker at 11 not a donkey man.

[Armamike]

My observations of the game would be as follows:

Armagh were awful, particularly tactically, I can think of very few occasions were failing tactics were changed by POR who instead choose to change players for almost identical players.  Before the game I could have told which subs were going to be used and who they were going to replace and sure enough I got 4 out of 5 of them right. When a defensive system isnt working (i.e. man for man on Lynch and Bradley) there is no point sticking with the system and continually change players without ever thinking of changing tactic.

Derry were good but not great, with the exception of Braddley and Lynch (who were excellent and allowed to be excellent) I thought Derry were ordinary to good and I would expect a big improvement in the final (which I feel will likely be needed)

Bradley is a fantastic footballer but should have been slapped by his manager for the stupid altercation with Mallon which was needlessly instigated by Bradley.  In addition Bradley is one of the cutest footballers at winning himself frees and getting opponents booked that I have ever seen.  Thats not a criticisim as winning a foul is a much a skill in the modern game as beating your man.

Brennan is a fantastic manager both tactically and interms of man management, I bumped into the Derry team when I was getting a feed after the game and they seemed very relaxed and were even having a drink or two as if the game had just been another day at the office.

POR is wasting one of the finest squads Armagh has ever had imo but we will have him for at least one more year. I may only be 26 but this was the first summer I ever booked a holiday without first ensuring it didnt clash with an Armagh game.  The reason for this is I am so disillusioned with the Armagh management.

The refereeing was very poor and highly inconsistent but made no difference to the result, the booking for Donaghy was for me harsh but what irked me more was when Clarke got fouled at the other end the cards werent as quick at coming. Also why was Diver was booked?  From where I was it looked like he kicked Toner in the face?  If he did surely thats either deliberate (and a sending off) or accidental and not even a foul?  This fudge always annoys me. Likewise with Mallon for the retaliation on Bradley

From the minor game Armagh were highly impressive and tbh the scoreline flattered Fermanagh a little as Armagh hit the crossbar three times and the Fermanagh keeper pulled of some wonderful saves.  Third straight Ulster Final for this management team (and I think for McGeown at full forward) and for me they really deserve a chance with the U21's or seniors next year.  Also I would really like to see McGeown in the senior team as he seems well able to take a score and is quite creative, he may well be worth a look in the half forward line.

Must say I think you have summarised things very well from an Armagh point of view. As for McGeown I think he really does show potential but can drift in and out of the game a bit - probably common for a young fella though. It is a great achievement for the minor management to reach 3 Ulster finals in a row and when you look at Armagh's poor minor record over the last forty years it really does show how much difference a good management team can make.

They are a good management team yes but it's not down to them alone. The bigger picture is the overall work done at underage level in Armagh. There has been great work done over the past 8 or 9 years by various unsung heros in restructuring underage football in Armagh and the county has been reaping the benefits the past few years - it's no accident or fluke of having good management in place.