A thread that's obviously required
Tyrone badly outmuscled Armagh, i was shocked tbh, and yet today they were on the receiving end of something similar. Very few could break a tackle.
End of the road for whom?
Tactics obviously.
Is Harte's future up for debate?
I think that result today is good for the rest of Ulster, after our destruction in the QF, I feared the establishment of a Reich, not so much now. That defeat will dent confidence and I'd expect a winter of discontent.
Start by playing football. You've got good players so go out and let them play. Give yourselves a punchers chance and enjoy your football.
Quote from: bennydorano on August 27, 2017, 07:25:02 PM
A thread that's obviously required
Big calls to be made in Tyrone. The first question is not the future of Harte. The first question is whether playing a style of "football" that crushes the weak and clueless but manifestly won't beat the best sides if they have got their shit together is the way to go? If the answer is yes the future of Mickey probably doesn't come into question. If the answer is No then things become more up for discussion
Quote from: bennydorano on August 27, 2017, 07:25:02 PM
A thread that's obviously required
Doesn't say much when you have to reply to your own thread nevertheless I suspect the real answer your question poses will come in few weeks if Mayo fall short. The question will be 'What now for Gaelic football when only one team can afford to be professional?'
It's really required? 32 of 33 teams end their seasons in defeat. You take a break and throw yourself at it again next season. It's not rocket science. Tyrone made the last four, they didn't get turfed out in June.
Cringey thread.
Serious lack of a plan B and a lack of leadership on the field today. Big Sean has ran out of steam but he has been one of the players of our generation, a player so good we all hate him, purely because he is so good. Colm Cavanagh stood tall but let himself down with that attempted murder. Harte and Donnelly were kept well under wraps today which no other side have been able to do. Tiarnan McCann has developed into one of the best players in the country and should be a shoe in for an all star but one man can only do so much. Leaving one man up front alone was bizarre. Surely at some stage in a game when losing you have to just go for it. Saying that Tyrone missed 3 chances early second half that could have built confidence and they maybe could have made a game of it. Joe Brolley asked me to type this as his phone is broke.
Not much need for soul-searching after this. Dublin undefeated for the guts of 4 years. We'll play the same strategy as any team fit to beat them in championship.
The thread shouldn't really read where now for Tyrone it's where now for everyone. There's none of us within an asses roar of Dublin except an ageing mayo side who've yet to beat them.
whats u think of playing M Donnelly corner forward??
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on August 27, 2017, 07:53:53 PM
whats u think of playing M Donnelly corner forward??
When did that happen?
its a big difference drifting out the field from corner forward, u bring a marker with you, when he played midfield he was getting more freedom as midfielder tend not to man mark each other, and was man of the match in a number of games last year, he didn't count the day.
Quote from: Syferus on August 27, 2017, 07:37:51 PM
It's really required? 32 of 33 teams end their seasons in defeat. You take a break and throw yourself at it again next season. It's not rocket science. Tyrone made the last four, they didn't get turfed out in June.
Cringey thread.
Sure if you're not interested just go and write some more McGregor Fanboy fiction.
As an Armagh fan I'll say I'm delighted to see Cavanagh retire and regardless of the things he has done goo or bad he was a great player for Tyrone and will be a big miss.
Enjoy your retirement Sean
I remember Kerry going to omagh one year and they were stuffing tyrone by about 10 points. McMenamin comes on at ht n grabs galvin by the billiards. Mini riot then tyrone start reeling them in and they get a draw. That's what was needed today
If Tyrone would just push up on opposition kickouts they might not have that much work to do.
Quote from: An Watcher on August 27, 2017, 08:24:04 PM
I remember Kerry going to omagh one year and they were stuffing tyrone by about 10 points. McMenamin comes on at ht n grabs galvin by the billiards. Mini riot then tyrone start reeling them in and they get a draw. That's what was needed today
You think that would've made a difference. Dubs were in 2nd gear in that 2nd half. You'd want 15 rivets grabbing 30 balls at the same time and a blind ref to make a change to the outcome
From the first minute tyrone should have been at them. Colm C' s kick was much too late. One or two others showed fight when the game was over.
Start playing the sport the way you used to .
Quote from: An Watcher on August 27, 2017, 08:24:04 PM
I remember Kerry going to omagh one year and they were stuffing tyrone by about 10 points. McMenamin comes on at ht n grabs galvin by the billiards. Mini riot then tyrone start reeling them in and they get a draw. That's what was needed today
They don't have the players. You can't win these days without decent forwards. Donegal played a very tight system in 2012 but they had the class. This defeat is the worst kind for Tyrone because there is no upside. But next year will come around again and the sap will rise.
I think it shows how special the 00s team was.
Tyrone only stopped playing the way 'they used to' because it was pointless playing that way v Donegal. 3 or 4 championship defeats on the trot saw to this. Heck Kerry even changed their approach when they beat them in the final a few years back
Quote from: An Watcher on August 27, 2017, 09:03:56 PM
Tyrone only stopped playing the way 'they used to' because it was pointless playing that way v Donegal. 3 or 4 championship defeats on the trot saw to this. Heck Kerry even changed their approach when they beat them in the final a few years back
You lost because the players weren't good enough . This system is a failure too. Because you've beaten nobody since 2009
Tyrone might be looking at a decade or longer of mediocrity. The thing about being hammered at the business end is that it is often career ending. System meltdown is not good.
Donegal and Armagh fans must be asking even more serious questions about the quality of their teams.
Quote from: seafoid on August 27, 2017, 09:09:37 PM
Tyrone might be looking at a decade or longer of mediocrity. The thing about being hammered at the business end is that it is often career ending. System meltdown is not good.
Only 3 or 4 years til Canavan Jr arrives.
Quote from: seafoid on August 27, 2017, 09:09:37 PM
Tyrone might be looking at a decade or longer of mediocrity. The thing about being hammered at the business end is that it is often career ending. System meltdown is not good.
1 bad game. 1! What is it with gaa and overreaction to losing a championship match. 2017 has been decent. Back to back Ulsters at a canter, staying up in div1 and a semi final would have been a good enough year most years.
Imagine. Another manager of any other county who hadnt reached an AI Final after 3 or 4 years of him in charge and then they ship a humiliating defeat in an AI Semi Final...he'd be out the door. Tyrone havent reached an AI Final since 2008 and still Mickey hangs on...wtf
Quote from: An Watcher on August 27, 2017, 08:40:20 PM
From the first minute tyrone should have been at them. Colm C' s kick was much too late. One or two others showed fight when the game was over.
Too late ffs it was a scummy cowardly act and he should have walked.
Quote from: RedHand88 on August 27, 2017, 10:03:42 PM
Quote from: seafoid on August 27, 2017, 09:09:37 PM
Tyrone might be looking at a decade or longer of mediocrity. The thing about being hammered at the business end is that it is often career ending. System meltdown is not good.
1 bad game. 1! What is it with gaa and overreaction to losing a championship match. 2017 has been decent. Back to back Ulsters at a canter, staying up in div1 and a semi final would have been a good enough year most years.
As an Armagh fan I really hope Tyrone proceed with the attitude that it was just one bad day at the office and leave everything the same.
Quote from: 5 Sams on August 27, 2017, 10:04:52 PM
Imagine. Another manager of any other county who hadnt reached an AI Final after 3 or 4 years of him in charge and then they ship a humiliating defeat in an AI Semi Final...he'd be out the door. Tyrone haven't reached an AI Final since 2008 and still Mickey hangs on...wtf
The cult of Mickey is too strong. He's like Wenger - he hasn't the humility to slip out the door and the powers that be don't have the balls to deal with him. The board need to dispense with nostalgia, thank him for the memories and tell him his time is up.
Quote from: Tony Baloney on August 27, 2017, 10:40:14 PM
Quote from: 5 Sams on August 27, 2017, 10:04:52 PM
Imagine. Another manager of any other county who hadnt reached an AI Final after 3 or 4 years of him in charge and then they ship a humiliating defeat in an AI Semi Final...he'd be out the door. Tyrone haven't reached an AI Final since 2008 and still Mickey hangs on...wtf
The cult of Mickey is too strong. He's like Wenger - he hasn't the humility to slip out the door and the powers that be don't have the balls to deal with him. The board need to dispense with nostalgia, thank him for the memories and tell him his time is up.
+1
While Dublin are around nobody will be winning an All Ireland playing defensive football.
There are two issues with Tyrone atm, Harte has been building his tactics around trying to beat Dublin and today after 2/3 years of development they were found out.
So now they are going to have to change again which will require another 2/3 years of development. Does he have the appetite to try again? and can he do it?
In short He has been a great manager for Tyrone but while Dublin are around he won't be winning any more All Irelands
We just need someone else to beat Dublin.
Quote from: ONeill on August 27, 2017, 10:51:15 PM
We just need someone else to beat Dublin.
... and Mayo and Kerry
Find some tall scoring forwards in the county would be a must for Tyrone. Bradley too small and no support to count against big strong teams, Play McClure at midfield next year, play Donnelly either 6 or 11 where he can influence a game, find a full back line that are capable of marking 1 on 1 like the Mayo defenders, nail down a excellent free taker and most importantly change your style of player to play 3/4 forwards up front and get back to playing attacking football with class
Quote from: ONeill on August 27, 2017, 10:56:11 PM
Quote from: longballin on August 27, 2017, 10:54:54 PM
Quote from: ONeill on August 27, 2017, 10:51:15 PM
We just need someone else to beat Dublin.
... and Mayo and Kerry
No I think Tyrone would handle both.
Havent since 2008... not as good as we think we are. Nowhere near it
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on August 27, 2017, 10:56:28 PM
Find some tall scoring forwards in the county would be a must for Tyrone. Bradley too small and no support to count against big strong teams, Play McClure at midfield next year, play Donnelly either 6 or 11 where he can influence a game, find a full back line that are capable of marking 1 on 1 like the Mayo defenders, nail down a excellent free taker and most importantly change your style of player to play 3/4 forwards up front and get back to playing attacking football with class
Good analysis. Also 2 passengers that denies all rational thought.
A very rude awakening.
Hard to know really, tactically we were exposed but we weren't helped by the non-shows by a number of players.
After that maybe looking at two All Stars... Colm Cavanagh... Padraig Hampsey... thoughts?
Think Colm and Harte the only possibles. Would love to see Colm get one.
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on August 27, 2017, 10:56:28 PM
Find some tall scoring forwards in the county would be a must for Tyrone. Bradley too small and no support to count against big strong teams, Play McClure at midfield next year, play Donnelly either 6 or 11 where he can influence a game, find a full back line that are capable of marking 1 on 1 like the Mayo defenders, nail down a excellent free taker and most importantly change your style of player to play 3/4 forwards up front and get back to playing attacking football with class
True, but this analysis applies to all counties
there be no all stars, Tom Parsons will get one if he squeezes out Fenton and McCarthy, Small will get no.6
Quote from: ONeill on August 27, 2017, 11:07:56 PM
Think Colm and Harte the only possibles. Would love to see Colm get one.
1 all star possibility - Colm.
Con O'Callaghan put an end to Hampsey hopes....
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on August 27, 2017, 11:10:51 PM
there be no all stars, Tom Parsons will get one if he squeezes out Fenton and McCarthy, Small will get no.6
Will def get All Stars... never seen a team yet reach semi-final and win provence and not get one or two...
Quote from: bennydorano on August 27, 2017, 10:30:41 PM
Quote from: RedHand88 on August 27, 2017, 10:03:42 PM
Quote from: seafoid on August 27, 2017, 09:09:37 PM
Tyrone might be looking at a decade or longer of mediocrity. The thing about being hammered at the business end is that it is often career ending. System meltdown is not good.
1 bad game. 1! What is it with gaa and overreaction to losing a championship match. 2017 has been decent. Back to back Ulsters at a canter, staying up in div1 and a semi final would have been a good enough year most years.
As an Armagh fan I really hope Tyrone proceed with the attitude that it was just one bad day at the office and leave everything the same.
If Tyrone losing a game late in the championship is the only thing that gives you your jollies then things are worse than I thought for Armagh. As bad as Derry.
In front of Parsons or Fenton, it wouldn't happen
Quote from: Mikhailov on August 27, 2017, 11:12:46 PM
Quote from: ONeill on August 27, 2017, 11:07:56 PM
Think Colm and Harte the only possibles. Would love to see Colm get one.
1 all star possibility - Colm.
Con O'Callaghan put an end to Hampsey hopes....
Regrettably agree. Maybe t mccann but it's a very outside chance.
Quote from: ONeill on August 27, 2017, 10:56:11 PM
Quote from: longballin on August 27, 2017, 10:54:54 PM
Quote from: ONeill on August 27, 2017, 10:51:15 PM
We just need someone else to beat Dublin.
... and Mayo and Kerry
No I think Tyrone would handle both.
You're deluded, Tyrone would not beat Mayo anyway. Kerry a bit like Tyrone, talked up too much.
Quote from: Itchy on August 27, 2017, 11:46:59 PM
Quote from: ONeill on August 27, 2017, 10:56:11 PM
Quote from: longballin on August 27, 2017, 10:54:54 PM
Quote from: ONeill on August 27, 2017, 10:51:15 PM
We just need someone else to beat Dublin.
... and Mayo and Kerry
No I think Tyrone would handle both.
You're deluded, Tyrone would not beat Mayo anyway. Kerry a bit like Tyrone, talked up too much.
What's the difference from last year?
Colm Cavanagh should not be near an All Star given that tackle today.
If Tyrone continue to play this system they will continue to come up short. On the other hand the system has proven it can beat teams that they are physically superior to. If Tyrone are happy to win Ulster for the next few years they can continue to play this way. On the other hand have they got the man markers or the forwards to beat teams playing football? Proving they do may lead to taking a step back for a while.
Quote from: Tony Baloney on August 27, 2017, 10:40:14 PM
Quote from: 5 Sams on August 27, 2017, 10:04:52 PM
Imagine. Another manager of any other county who hadnt reached an AI Final after 3 or 4 years of him in charge and then they ship a humiliating defeat in an AI Semi Final...he'd be out the door. Tyrone haven't reached an AI Final since 2008 and still Mickey hangs on...wtf
The cult of Mickey is too strong. He's like Wenger - he hasn't the humility to slip out the door and the powers that be don't have the balls to deal with him. The board need to dispense with nostalgia, thank him for the memories and tell him his time is up.
For whom?
Tiernan McCann has to win an all star this year.
Quote from: Puckoon on August 28, 2017, 01:35:22 AM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on August 27, 2017, 10:40:14 PM
Quote from: 5 Sams on August 27, 2017, 10:04:52 PM
Imagine. Another manager of any other county who hadnt reached an AI Final after 3 or 4 years of him in charge and then they ship a humiliating defeat in an AI Semi Final...he'd be out the door. Tyrone haven't reached an AI Final since 2008 and still Mickey hangs on...wtf
The cult of Mickey is too strong. He's like Wenger - he hasn't the humility to slip out the door and the powers that be don't have the balls to deal with him. The board need to dispense with nostalgia, thank him for the memories and tell him his time is up.
For whom?
Tiernan McCann has to win an all star this year.
I thought him, Harte and Colm would be shoe ins
Cavanagh shouldn't be anywhere near an all star after that violence on the pitch yesterday.
Quote from: RedHand88 on August 27, 2017, 11:16:37 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on August 27, 2017, 10:30:41 PM
Quote from: RedHand88 on August 27, 2017, 10:03:42 PM
Quote from: seafoid on August 27, 2017, 09:09:37 PM
Tyrone might be looking at a decade or longer of mediocrity. The thing about being hammered at the business end is that it is often career ending. System meltdown is not good.
1 bad game. 1! What is it with gaa and overreaction to losing a championship match. 2017 has been decent. Back to back Ulsters at a canter, staying up in div1 and a semi final would have been a good enough year most years.
As an Armagh fan I really hope Tyrone proceed with the attitude that it was just one bad day at the office and leave everything the same.
If Tyrone losing a game late in the championship is the only thing that gives you your jollies then things are worse than I thought for Armagh. As bad as Derry.
I hope the Myopia is as as systemic as your attitude.
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on August 27, 2017, 10:56:28 PM
Find some tall scoring forwards in the county would be a must for Tyrone. Bradley too small and no support to count against big strong teams, Play McClure at midfield next year, play Donnelly either 6 or 11 where he can influence a game, find a full back line that are capable of marking 1 on 1 like the Mayo defenders, nail down a excellent free taker and most importantly change your style of player to play 3/4 forwards up front and get back to playing attacking football with class
It will take at least 5 years for such a reboot to produce a decent team. It takes ages for team groupthink to develop. Dublin have been running the machine for a decade. Mayo have at least 7 years of data.
The best time for Tyrone to start playing with scoring forwards was 5 years ago.
Welcome to the real world.
Can't see Harte getting the chop or being forced out just yet. Yesterday confirmed to us in no uncertain fashion that the current approach is totally redundant and will only get us past teams lower down the pecking order. However, there is a huge amount of evidence that playing a more orthodox system would still allow us to get to the level we are currently at.
All sights now set at the 2018 NFL and I'll be extremely pissed off if we still persist with the one man up front dung.
Is there a date yet for the NFL or championship 2018 draws?
A change of approach may happen but what will it inevitably achieve?
I don't think it will have us much closer to winning an All Ireland than today. Tyrone were physically and athletically dominated by Dublin yesterday.
Are there really any players outside the current squad that will make that much of an impact. I'm sure there will be calls for the likes of Coney and McNulty to be used as a target man type forward but both are badly lacking in the mobility needed for the game today. Have we really any better man markers than what played today in the county? Possibly young McKernan will get a call up today but realistically he's about 3 or 4 years of gym work off being able to man mark one of the Dublin lads yesterday.
It took yesterday to dawn on me how far ahead Dublin are of everyone else. Mayo have been the only side who look like they can match them physically and athletically in the past few years.
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on August 28, 2017, 10:10:39 AM
A change of approach may happen but what will it inevitably achieve?
I don't think it will have us much closer to winning an All Ireland than today. Tyrone were physically and athletically dominated by Dublin yesterday.
Are there really any players outside the current squad that will make that much of an impact. I'm sure there will be calls for the likes of Coney and McNulty to be used as a target man type forward but both are badly lacking in the mobility needed for the game today. Have we really any better man markers than what played today in the county? Possibly young McKernan will get a call up today but realistically he's about 3 or 4 years of gym work off being able to man mark one of the Dublin lads yesterday.
It took yesterday to dawn on me how far ahead Dublin are of everyone else. Mayo have been the only side who look like they can match them physically and athletically in the past few years.
That's the bottom line - there are very few other players in the county that are capable of coming into that squad (not just man markers) and as you say it takes a few years to get up to intercounty level unless you are exceptional like O'Callaghan for the Dubs. A lot of our players were shown up yesterday as being decent county players but way short of that elite level. I think a change in approach would get us to the same stage as this year as standards are poor elsewhere but we are absolutely miles off the Dubs. That 2nd choice forward line they showed on the Sunday game last night was frightening.
Quote from: square_ball on August 28, 2017, 11:01:49 AM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on August 28, 2017, 10:10:39 AM
A change of approach may happen but what will it inevitably achieve?
I don't think it will have us much closer to winning an All Ireland than today. Tyrone were physically and athletically dominated by Dublin yesterday.
Are there really any players outside the current squad that will make that much of an impact. I'm sure there will be calls for the likes of Coney and McNulty to be used as a target man type forward but both are badly lacking in the mobility needed for the game today. Have we really any better man markers than what played today in the county? Possibly young McKernan will get a call up today but realistically he's about 3 or 4 years of gym work off being able to man mark one of the Dublin lads yesterday.
It took yesterday to dawn on me how far ahead Dublin are of everyone else. Mayo have been the only side who look like they can match them physically and athletically in the past few years.
That's the bottom line - there are very few other players in the county that are capable of coming into that squad (not just man markers) and as you say it takes a few years to get up to intercounty level unless you are exceptional like O'Callaghan for the Dubs. A lot of our players were shown up yesterday as being decent county players but way short of that elite level. I think a change in approach would get us to the same stage as this year as standards are poor elsewhere but we are absolutely miles off the Dubs. That 2nd choice forward line they showed on the Sunday game last night was frightening.
I don't see what change will really achieve, just for the sake of change. We got found out yesterday but the bottom line is that Tyrone are miles ahead of most teams in the country. The real problem is that Dublin are way ahead of the rest. Mayo right now are the only team to put them up to it but the worrying thing is this Mayo side would look to be on their last legs. Andy Moran, Colm Boyle and Keith Higgins have been inspirational in recent weeks but they're all past the 30 mark now - how long realistically can they go on for? You can see them going the way of Kerry now and we saw yesterday that Tyrone are a good bit off and I don't really see anything that can conceivably propel them on.
no tyrone are miles ahead of the the teams they played this year .
tht is all they could do but if you take the view that ulster are now the weakest province for which there is a lot of evidence the yesterday was not quiet as suprising .
would tyrone have beaten kildare ,cork meath galway or even god help us Roscommon(esp the connact final drawn game version) I would have my doubts
Quote from: rosnarun on August 28, 2017, 11:40:37 AM
no tyrone are miles ahead of the the teams they played this year .
tht is all they could do but if you take the view that ulster are now the weakest province for which there is a lot of evidence the yesterday was not quiet as suprising .
would tyrone have beaten kildare ,cork meath galway or even god help us Roscommon(esp the connact final drawn game version) I would have my doubts
Taking Tyrone's weaknesses as seen yesterday as read, I'd be fairly confident they'd comfortably beat all those teams. It wouldn't surprise me in the least to see Dublin, Mayo, Kerry and Tyrone in the semis next year. I think the Dubs will win the final by 5-8 points and if they have the hunger, passion committment etc I can see them doing 5 or 6 in a row.
Quote from: seafoid on August 27, 2017, 09:09:37 PM
Tyrone might be looking at a decade or longer of mediocrity. The thing about being hammered at the business end is that it is often career ending. System meltdown is not good.
Mediocrity? Winning provincial titles and making the last four?
Tyrone players and supporters might expect (demand?) more, that's their prerogative but it will take a fair regression to lead them to mediocrity.
/Jim.
Quote from: rosnarun on August 28, 2017, 11:40:37 AM
no tyrone are miles ahead of the the teams they played this year .
tht is all they could do but if you take the view that ulster are now the weakest province for which there is a lot of evidence the yesterday was not quiet as suprising .
would tyrone have beaten kildare ,cork meath galway or even god help us Roscommon(esp the connact final drawn game version) I would have my doubts
How is Ulster the weakest province?
Armagh knocked out the second best Leinster side this year and probably the second best Munster side along the way.
They had 5 of the last 12 and 3 of the last 8. It's still the strongest province.
Tyrone, Mayo and Kerry looked to be well ahead of the rest of the pack.
I think next year will be Ulster v Munster in the provincial match ups.
So you could potentially have a Tyrone v Kerry AI semi-final next year.
Tyrone should start a breeding programme with Down women.
Quote from: Jim_Murphy_74 on August 28, 2017, 11:53:02 AM
Quote from: seafoid on August 27, 2017, 09:09:37 PM
Tyrone might be looking at a decade or longer of mediocrity. The thing about being hammered at the business end is that it is often career ending. System meltdown is not good.
Mediocrity? Winning provincial titles and making the last four?
Tyrone players and supporters might expect (demand?) more, that's their prerogative but it will take a fair regression to lead them to mediocrity.
/Jim.
Yeah, this year Tyrone were well ahead of anything else in Ulster, don't see that changing much in the next 12 months.
Quote from: Jim_Murphy_74 on August 28, 2017, 11:53:02 AM
Quote from: seafoid on August 27, 2017, 09:09:37 PM
Tyrone might be looking at a decade or longer of mediocrity. The thing about being hammered at the business end is that it is often career ending. System meltdown is not good.
Mediocrity? Winning provincial titles and making the last four?
Tyrone players and supporters might expect (demand?) more, that's their prerogative but it will take a fair regression to lead them to mediocrity.
/Jim.
Tyrone are a fabulous side, they just ran into one of if not the best teams ever to play the game of gaelic football, 5 in a row is absolutely a possibility now, Dublin are young, hungry and managed brilliantly, I fear for Mayo in the AIF because to me they are nowhere near Tyrone and look what happened to them.
Tyron will be back, they have some fantastic players coming through but Dublin are going to dominate our game for a decade or more, they are that good.
Quote from: rosnarun on August 28, 2017, 11:40:37 AM
no tyrone are miles ahead of the the teams they played this year .
tht is all they could do but if you take the view that ulster are now the weakest province for which there is a lot of evidence the yesterday was not quiet as suprising .
would tyrone have beaten kildare ,cork meath galway or even god help us Roscommon(esp the connact final drawn game version) I would have my doubts
:-\ Ulster football is not what it was, but to say that it's the weakest province when:
Armagh beat both Westmeath and Kildare (Leinster Semi-Finalist and Finalist)
Donegal beat Meath (Leinster Semi-Finalist)
Leinster with its population and strong football focus, should be the best, but is probably the worst nothwithstanting the fact that Dublin is the best team in Ireland. This stands up when you look at the percentage of teams in each province in each division of the league.
Connaught is arguably the strongest with 2 from its five teams in the top division and Roscommon now in Division 2. It probably had the most competitive provincial championship this year, with greater potential for upsets. Ulster and Munster on a par in terms of the percentage of their teams distributed across the top two divisions. Leinster is on balance the weakest province but has the strongest team in Ireland.
Best comparison is on divisional status:
Ulster
Division 1 - 33%
Division 2 - 22%
Division 3 - 33%
Division 4 - 11%
Munster
Division 1 - 16%
Division 2 - 50%
Division 4 - 33%
Connaught
Division 1 - 40%
Division 2 - 20%
Division 3 - 20%
Division 4 - 20%
Leinster
Division 1 - 18%
Division 2 - 18%
Division 3 - 36%
Division 4 - 27%*
Incl Kilkenny
Looks like the Tyrone development squad conveyor belt is producing plenty of the same type of player but not enough or any outstanding athletes who can play football. Like in a number of other counties, the development squad/academy method is not paying dividends in terms of the quality of players coming through. Is the coaching of these squads good enough? The u21 failures over a period of 5/6 years are coming home to roost.
Criticism of Harte needs to be tempered in that he is doing the best with the players coming through. His defensive method was a development of the McGuinness method and is a result of not having the players needed to beat enough other teams with a more attacking mode. He can only work with the players in his squad and while some selections are head scratching, there is not a list of players being shouted out by Tyrone posters as alternatives who have been ignored.
Quote from: seafoid on August 28, 2017, 12:16:11 PM
Tyrone should start a breeding programme with Down women.
Disgusting!
Tyrone should start a breeding programme with Down women.
Quote from: Jim_Murphy_74 on August 28, 2017, 11:53:02 AM
Quote from: seafoid on August 27, 2017, 09:09:37 PM
Tyrone might be looking at a decade or longer of mediocrity. The thing about being hammered at the business end is that it is often career ending. System meltdown is not good.
Mediocrity? Winning provincial titles and making the last four?
Tyrone players and supporters might expect (demand?) more, that's their prerogative but it will take a fair regression to lead them to mediocrity.
/Jim.
The team is dead, Jim. They have to start again. Jinxy can tell you all about it. Mouview is good as well.
As a fan of pure football, I'm delighted Tyrone were beaten.
Mickey Harte sure delivered on his statement that he's not interested in entertaining the fans.
Time for him and his puke football to go..
Tyrone are too good and talented to be made play like robots with no plan B..
It has become very unenjoyable to watch Tyrone recently and yesterday was no different. Time for a change in my opinion.
Quote from: Owen Brannigan on August 28, 2017, 12:45:14 PM
The u21 failures over a period of 5/6 years are coming home to roost.
I don't understand this - we won the U21 All Ireland in 2015 with what is still a very young team.
Do you mean that their transition to senior has failed?
Quote from: Owen Brannigan on August 28, 2017, 12:45:14 PM
Looks like the Tyrone development squad conveyor belt is producing plenty of the same type of player but not enough or any outstanding athletes who can play football. Like in a number of other counties, the development squad/academy method is not paying dividends in terms of the quality of players coming through. Is the coaching of these squads good enough? The u21 failures over a period of 5/6 years are coming home to roost.
Criticism of Harte needs to be tempered in that he is doing the best with the players coming through. His defensive method was a development of the McGuinness method and is a result of not having the players needed to beat enough other teams with a more attacking mode. He can only work with the players in his squad and while some selections are head scratching, there is not a list of players being shouted out by Tyrone posters as alternatives who have been ignored.
This isn't altogether true IMO. Tyrone do bring through players with flair but much of it is sacrificed for the system on which this team has been built. The aforementioned Coney was a write off because he didn't fit into the the style. It doesn't suit the likes of Ronan O'Neil or Darren McCurry either. I'm not a great fan of McCurry but he and the others in his mould only ever get bits and pieces of games and in a system that isn't built to make the most of their talents. Very hard to flourish in such circumstances. But Tyrone do have attacking talent.
I never thought Tyrone could win yesterday - although I was surprised by the lack of intensity - and have long argued that this football we play is shite. It hasn't beaten anybody that Tyrone wouldn't beat playing a more positive style. It inevitably fails when we are playing a team better than us. You would only adopt this style if it could beat a naturally more talented side. But it doesn't. Essentially Tyrone have wasted a few seasons on a flawed system. Now they likely wouldn't beat Dublin anyway, but they'd give themselves some kind of chance if they had men up the field. Sludden, Harte and Donnelly would have been a class half forward line. Used properly they could do much more damage.
As for Mickey, I think he is an inspirational figure and we owe him an awful lot. Given what he has done he should be able to decide when he goes. But I do think he has made a big error of judgement with the way he has built this team. He was once a great innovator but this team has just been an inferior version of the Donegal of Jimmy McGuiness. Hard now to go back to the players and after years working on this style admit it was an error and try something else.
Yesterday, I felt that they showed Dublin too much respect. There were various times where Dublin scored points with next to no space and a hungrier / tougher team would have been in there making blocks. I think Mayo would have made those blocks and punished Dublin for the wasted opportunities in the second half. If Tyrone had played like psychos, as Enda McGinley had suggested, then it would have been a very different game and we would know more about where Tyrone are actually at. But they didn't, so it is still hard to know just how good these players are and whether they have the bottle to go and beat a team like Dublin.
No doubting that these Tyrone players are very good and their main strength is discipline in executing a game plan and not fouling. However, I think the system of play might make the players look better than what they are as it allows them to pummel weaker opposition. Playing similar tactics as the opposition, I don't think they would have beaten Donegal, Armagh or Down by the same margins. They still would have won, but it would have been much tighter.
So this system makes them look great against weaker teams but they are found out in a tight game or once they go behind. Mentally, phsyically, skillswise, were they fit for the challenge of conceding a goal after 5 minutes yesterday? Only a few of them were while many went missing.
Will this be a turning point for this Tyrone team. Will they develop a plan B to go with their perfectly executed Plan A. Will they keep doing what they are doing and hope for improvements and tweaks to the game plan. Will they get rid of Mickey and go backwards. Will they lose anyone else apart from Sean Cavanagh?
All interesting questions, but as an Armagh man, I won't lose much sleep over them!!
Quote from: 5 Sams on August 27, 2017, 10:04:52 PM
Imagine. Another manager of any other county who hadnt reached an AI Final after 3 or 4 years of him in charge and then they ship a humiliating defeat in an AI Semi Final...he'd be out the door. Tyrone havent reached an AI Final since 2008 and still Mickey hangs on...wtf
La gente en Tyrone està muy loca
https://youtu.be/X_jtf78fLq4
Think you're right APM. However, the goal came at the absolute worst time for us. The body language and commitment to the intensity required just wasn't there for the rest of the game. Btw, that's not to say we'd have beaten them if we didn't concede the goal but it would have kept us on their tails.
Quote from: 5 Sams on August 27, 2017, 10:04:52 PM
Imagine. Another manager of any other county who hadnt reached an AI Final after 3 or 4 years of him in charge and then they ship a humiliating defeat in an AI Semi Final...he'd be out the door. Tyrone havent reached an AI Final since 2008 and still Mickey hangs on...wtf
Which county which regularly changes manager would be the model by which you think Tyrone should follow then? Armagh? Down? Derry? Meath maybe? Galway? What about Cork? Kildare?
Watched the game yesterday and was surprised that Tyrone lay down so easily, they showed very little appetite and intensity.
A few points on there q/f and s/f.
Against Armagh, Armagh allowed Tyrone to play their counter attacking game and they proved they can be lethal when allowed, hence the score. Naivety on Armagh's part.
With Dublin they used the same tactics and Dublin were more than ready for it. Precision passing through the defence, patient build up drawing them out of the pockets they cover, shooting from distance, taking on the man at the right opportunities and intensity in tracking and tackling back showed how to counteract this approach.
Just as Armagh had no plan B for Tyrone, Tyrone had no plan B for Dublin.
All over the pitch Dublin were a class above and Mayo will be doing well to get near them. Special mention goes to O' Callaghan. I counted 3 times he tracked his man, waiting for him to take his steps and disposed. His decision making is top class.
I think if Harte is to quit it should be on his own terms. I imagine the whole thing would go tits up if he goes though!
Quote from: sligoman2 on August 28, 2017, 01:18:30 PM
As a fan of pure football, I'm delighted Tyrone were beaten.
Mickey Harte sure delivered on his statement that he's not interested in entertaining the fans.
Time for him and his puke football to go..
Tyrone are too good and talented to be made play like robots with no plan B..
It has become very unenjoyable to watch Tyrone recently and yesterday was no different. Time for a change in my opinion.
Do people still use the term "puke football" seriously? It's been years since Spillane retracted that statement and apologised.
Tyrone racked up huge scores all year until yesterday (average 23.75 points/game), they just came up against a team which mirrored their "puke football" and did so to far better effect.
Tyrone in attack have been a joy to watch this year and if no doubt will give it another crack in 2018.
It's football in general that's pukey, Tyrone obviously contributed to that decline more than most but almost every team employs sweepers and dual sweepers and forwards that track their men back into their own half of the field.
Dublin execute well but anyone who was in awe of them recycling and recycling ball and back pedalling needs to cop on and realise that even the best team, perhaps of all time, isn't exactly putting on much of a show.
Besides maybe reducing the number of players to 13 I don't know what else would allow for a more open and exciting brand of football to develop at the top level. And that's before you even touch the 800lb gorilla that is the monetary imbalance in senior IC.
Harte to go and a system utilising the talents of McCurry & Brennan!!
Quote from: Syferus on August 28, 2017, 02:34:24 PM
It's football in general that's pukey, Tyrone obviously contributed to that decline more than most but almost every team employs sweepers and dual sweepers and forwards that track their men back into their own half of the field.
Dublin execute well but anyone who was in awe of them recycling and recycling ball and back pedalling needs to cop on and realise that even the best team, perhaps of all time, isn't exactly putting on much of a show.
Besides maybe reducing the number of players to 13 I don't know what else would allow for a more open and exciting brand of football to develop at the top level. And that's before you even touch the 800lb gorilla that is the monetary imbalance in senior IC.
The fitness levels are probably at a stage now where 13 v 13 is what's needed to get a decent game.
Watching the game at Croke Park yesterday it made it even more obvious that Tyrone have nothing up front. They went on the break and they had one man standing in the ff line being marked by 2 men and no one else within 50 yards. Tyrone's run up the field from defence might work against mediocre teams but not against quality opposition like Dublin. Dublin's tackling was excellent, I lost count of the amount of times that they ran up and got a hand in to get the ball away from a Tyrone man on the break. Tyrone won't win anything when they don't have anything up front. In the good Tyrone teams from the 00s, you had Mugsy, O'Neill, Brian McGuigan and Peter the great off the top of my head.
I was very disappointed with Tyrone but that Dublin team were absolutely amazing yesterday. Composure, long range scores, tackling, fitness, speed etc! They have it all. They really do look like a professional team! Their bench alone is ridiculous. It will need an off day and an amazing performance from Mayo to beat them. They will probably go down as the greatest team in history.
Quote from: square_ball on August 28, 2017, 11:01:49 AM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on August 28, 2017, 10:10:39 AM
A change of approach may happen but what will it inevitably achieve?
I don't think it will have us much closer to winning an All Ireland than today. Tyrone were physically and athletically dominated by Dublin yesterday.
Are there really any players outside the current squad that will make that much of an impact. I'm sure there will be calls for the likes of Coney and McNulty to be used as a target man type forward but both are badly lacking in the mobility needed for the game today. Have we really any better man markers than what played today in the county? Possibly young McKernan will get a call up today but realistically he's about 3 or 4 years of gym work off being able to man mark one of the Dublin lads yesterday.
It took yesterday to dawn on me how far ahead Dublin are of everyone else. Mayo have been the only side who look like they can match them physically and athletically in the past few years.
That's the bottom line - there are very few other players in the county that are capable of coming into that squad (not just man markers) and as you say it takes a few years to get up to intercounty level unless you are exceptional like O'Callaghan for the Dubs. A lot of our players were shown up yesterday as being decent county players but way short of that elite level. I think a change in approach would get us to the same stage as this year as standards are poor elsewhere but we are absolutely miles off the Dubs. That 2nd choice forward line they showed on the Sunday game last night was frightening.
It would give you a chance. What's the point in playing horrible, losing football? You've got good footballers, M Donnelly, Harte and McCann are players any team would want and you've got some very good, albeit small, forwards. Let them play football and see where it gets you.
Look at Kerry, they got spooked by the roasting their full back line got in the drawn game against Mayo and dropped one of the best forwards in Ireland. Instead of playing a sweeper they should have backed their forwards to score more than Mayo's. Had they done so who knows what would have happened. Good football teams like Tyrone need to show confidence in themselves and try to outscore their opponents. It may not win them an All Ireland but at least they'd go out on their shields and their fans can enjoy watching the journey.
Quote from: JimStynes on August 28, 2017, 02:50:55 PM
Watching the game at Croke Park yesterday it made it even more obvious that Tyrone have nothing up front. They went on the break and they had one man standing in the ff line being marked by 2 men and no one else within 50 yards. Tyrone's run up the field from defence might work against mediocre teams but not against quality opposition like Dublin. Dublin's tackling was excellent, I lost count of the amount of times that they ran up and got a hand in to get the ball away from a Tyrone man on the break. Tyrone won't win anything when they don't have anything up front. In the good Tyrone teams from the 00s, you had Mugsy, O'Neill, Brian McGuigan and Peter the great off the top of my head.
I was very disappointed with Tyrone but that Dublin team were absolutely amazing yesterday. Composure, long range scores, tackling, fitness, speed etc! They have it all. They really do look like a professional team! Their bench alone is ridiculous. It will need an off day and an amazing performance from Mayo to beat them. They will probably go down as the greatest team in history.
Wexford won 4 in a row
If the Dubs win this year they will be just 2 off the kerry 80's team
Quote from: BennyHarp on August 28, 2017, 01:59:48 PM
Quote from: 5 Sams on August 27, 2017, 10:04:52 PM
Imagine. Another manager of any other county who hadnt reached an AI Final after 3 or 4 years of him in charge and then they ship a humiliating defeat in an AI Semi Final...he'd be out the door. Tyrone havent reached an AI Final since 2008 and still Mickey hangs on...wtf
Which county which regularly changes manager would be the model by which you think Tyrone should follow then? Armagh? Down? Derry? Meath maybe? Galway? What about Cork? Kildare?
Dublin, mayo and Kerry have all changed their managers regularly and it hasn't done them much harm.
Quote from: stew on August 28, 2017, 12:21:55 PM
Quote from: Jim_Murphy_74 on August 28, 2017, 11:53:02 AM
Quote from: seafoid on August 27, 2017, 09:09:37 PM
Tyrone might be looking at a decade or longer of mediocrity. The thing about being hammered at the business end is that it is often career ending. System meltdown is not good.
Mediocrity? Winning provincial titles and making the last four?
Tyrone players and supporters might expect (demand?) more, that's their prerogative but it will take a fair regression to lead them to mediocrity.
/Jim.
Tyrone are a fabulous side, they just ran into one of if not the best teams ever to play the game of gaelic football, 5 in a row is absolutely a possibility now, Dublin are young, hungry and managed brilliantly, I fear for Mayo in the AIF because to me they are nowhere near Tyrone and look what happened to them.
Tyron will be back, they have some fantastic players coming through but Dublin are going to dominate our game for a decade or more, they are that good.
Mayo would beat Tyrone 9 times out of 10.
Tyrone yesterday looked a fair way off yet. They have been improving over the last couple of years but yesterday looked to be on a damage limitation exercise.
The game was as pedestrian as you will ever see in an AI semi with Dublin barely breaking sweat. A complete lack of intensity from Tyrone while Dublin did not even require that.
Ah come on Zulu, 9 times out of 10? Sure we should have beat them last year and we were totally off our game. Not saying we are clearly better but you're a bit off with that one, imo.
Quote from: omagh_gael on August 28, 2017, 03:13:32 PM
Ah come on Zulu, 9 times out of 10? Sure we should have beat them last year and we were totally off our game. Not saying we are clearly better but you're a bit off with that one, imo.
yes and mayo 'should have' won the all Ireland last year
Quote from: Zulu on August 28, 2017, 02:57:00 PM
Quote from: square_ball on August 28, 2017, 11:01:49 AM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on August 28, 2017, 10:10:39 AM
A change of approach may happen but what will it inevitably achieve?
I don't think it will have us much closer to winning an All Ireland than today. Tyrone were physically and athletically dominated by Dublin yesterday.
Are there really any players outside the current squad that will make that much of an impact. I'm sure there will be calls for the likes of Coney and McNulty to be used as a target man type forward but both are badly lacking in the mobility needed for the game today. Have we really any better man markers than what played today in the county? Possibly young McKernan will get a call up today but realistically he's about 3 or 4 years of gym work off being able to man mark one of the Dublin lads yesterday.
It took yesterday to dawn on me how far ahead Dublin are of everyone else. Mayo have been the only side who look like they can match them physically and athletically in the past few years.
That's the bottom line - there are very few other players in the county that are capable of coming into that squad (not just man markers) and as you say it takes a few years to get up to intercounty level unless you are exceptional like O'Callaghan for the Dubs. A lot of our players were shown up yesterday as being decent county players but way short of that elite level. I think a change in approach would get us to the same stage as this year as standards are poor elsewhere but we are absolutely miles off the Dubs. That 2nd choice forward line they showed on the Sunday game last night was frightening.
It would give you a chance. What's the point in playing horrible, losing football? You've got good footballers, M Donnelly, Harte and McCann are players any team would want and you've got some very good, albeit small, forwards. Let them play football and see where it gets you.
Look at Kerry, they got spooked by the roasting their full back line got in the drawn game against Mayo and dropped one of the best forwards in Ireland. Instead of playing a sweeper they should have backed their forwards to score more than Mayo's. Had they done so who knows what would have happened. Good football teams like Tyrone need to show confidence in themselves and try to outscore their opponents. It may not win them an All Ireland but at least they'd go out on their shields and their fans can enjoy watching the journey.
That's what I'm saying - playing a different style would still have got us to an All Ireland semi final this year and will do next year as well in my opinion. I agree wholeheartedly with your last sentence. Yesterday was painful to watch.
Quote from: Zulu on August 28, 2017, 02:57:00 PM
Quote from: square_ball on August 28, 2017, 11:01:49 AM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on August 28, 2017, 10:10:39 AM
A change of approach may happen but what will it inevitably achieve?
I don't think it will have us much closer to winning an All Ireland than today. Tyrone were physically and athletically dominated by Dublin yesterday.
Are there really any players outside the current squad that will make that much of an impact. I'm sure there will be calls for the likes of Coney and McNulty to be used as a target man type forward but both are badly lacking in the mobility needed for the game today. Have we really any better man markers than what played today in the county? Possibly young McKernan will get a call up today but realistically he's about 3 or 4 years of gym work off being able to man mark one of the Dublin lads yesterday.
It took yesterday to dawn on me how far ahead Dublin are of everyone else. Mayo have been the only side who look like they can match them physically and athletically in the past few years.
That's the bottom line - there are very few other players in the county that are capable of coming into that squad (not just man markers) and as you say it takes a few years to get up to intercounty level unless you are exceptional like O'Callaghan for the Dubs. A lot of our players were shown up yesterday as being decent county players but way short of that elite level. I think a change in approach would get us to the same stage as this year as standards are poor elsewhere but we are absolutely miles off the Dubs. That 2nd choice forward line they showed on the Sunday game last night was frightening.
It would give you a chance. What's the point in playing horrible, losing football? You've got good footballers, M Donnelly, Harte and McCann are players any team would want and you've got some very good, albeit small, forwards. Let them play football and see where it gets you.
Look at Kerry, they got spooked by the roasting their full back line got in the drawn game against Mayo and dropped one of the best forwards in Ireland. Instead of playing a sweeper they should have backed their forwards to score more than Mayo's. Had they done so who knows what would have happened. Good football teams like Tyrone need to show confidence in themselves and try to outscore their opponents. It may not win them an All Ireland but at least they'd go out on their shields and their fans can enjoy watching the journey.
The point in playing horrible losing football is the same point in playing beautiful losing football. Losing football does not win trophies. I'd rather us play horrible football and be competitive than play beautiful football and get ransacked by a decent side. If you play open Dublin will run straight through you, if you close up, they can do what they did yesterday. Tyrone contributed to their own downfall yesterday by not playing with aggression and not playing with needle, they needed to do that to have any chance.
Name me a side who has played attacking football and beat Dublin under Jim Gavin in Championship?
There are no shortage of options for Tyrone should Harte's reign come to an end. Canavan, Logan, O'Rourke are obvious candidates but I really don't know think the Tyrone county board will replace him. It is going to be a problem at some stage though as I really don't see Harte stepping down anytime soon unless and until they win another AI title.
Quote from: omagh_gael on August 28, 2017, 03:13:32 PM
Ah come on Zulu, 9 times out of 10? Sure we should have beat them last year and we were totally off our game. Not saying we are clearly better but you're a bit off with that one, imo.
Yeah, I went a bit over the top there but I certainly think Mayo are better than Tyrone at the moment. Tyrone aren't far off if they back themselves more.
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on August 28, 2017, 03:21:42 PM
Quote from: Zulu on August 28, 2017, 02:57:00 PM
Quote from: square_ball on August 28, 2017, 11:01:49 AM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on August 28, 2017, 10:10:39 AM
A change of approach may happen but what will it inevitably achieve?
I don't think it will have us much closer to winning an All Ireland than today. Tyrone were physically and athletically dominated by Dublin yesterday.
Are there really any players outside the current squad that will make that much of an impact. I'm sure there will be calls for the likes of Coney and McNulty to be used as a target man type forward but both are badly lacking in the mobility needed for the game today. Have we really any better man markers than what played today in the county? Possibly young McKernan will get a call up today but realistically he's about 3 or 4 years of gym work off being able to man mark one of the Dublin lads yesterday.
It took yesterday to dawn on me how far ahead Dublin are of everyone else. Mayo have been the only side who look like they can match them physically and athletically in the past few years.
That's the bottom line - there are very few other players in the county that are capable of coming into that squad (not just man markers) and as you say it takes a few years to get up to intercounty level unless you are exceptional like O'Callaghan for the Dubs. A lot of our players were shown up yesterday as being decent county players but way short of that elite level. I think a change in approach would get us to the same stage as this year as standards are poor elsewhere but we are absolutely miles off the Dubs. That 2nd choice forward line they showed on the Sunday game last night was frightening.
It would give you a chance. What's the point in playing horrible, losing football? You've got good footballers, M Donnelly, Harte and McCann are players any team would want and you've got some very good, albeit small, forwards. Let them play football and see where it gets you.
Look at Kerry, they got spooked by the roasting their full back line got in the drawn game against Mayo and dropped one of the best forwards in Ireland. Instead of playing a sweeper they should have backed their forwards to score more than Mayo's. Had they done so who knows what would have happened. Good football teams like Tyrone need to show confidence in themselves and try to outscore their opponents. It may not win them an All Ireland but at least they'd go out on their shields and their fans can enjoy watching the journey.
The point in playing horrible losing football is the same point in playing beautiful losing football. Losing football does not win trophies. I'd rather us play horrible football and be competitive than play beautiful football and get ransacked by a decent side. If you play open Dublin will run straight through you, if you close up, they can do what they did yesterday. Tyrone contributed to their own downfall yesterday by not playing with aggression and not playing with needle, they needed to do that to have any chance.
Name me a side who has played attacking football and beat Dublin under Jim Gavin in Championship?
Gavin has only lost one match and that was an ambush against Donegal when Dublin were playing all out attacking football. Had Connolly taken his goal chance that day Dublin could have won by 15 points. It was not definitive proof that a negative defensive set up is the way to beat Dublin though especially since Dublin have changed their gameplan to a more pragmatic one since then if required. Mickey Harte seen it as the template for success though even when playing against opponents that they are clearly superior to. He needs to be a bit more creative and at least put into practice a plan B for when the need arises. I believe Bradley is a very talented forward but he is being hopelessly under utilised in what is a thankless task up front with no support.
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on August 28, 2017, 03:21:42 PM
Quote from: Zulu on August 28, 2017, 02:57:00 PM
Quote from: square_ball on August 28, 2017, 11:01:49 AM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on August 28, 2017, 10:10:39 AM
A change of approach may happen but what will it inevitably achieve?
I don't think it will have us much closer to winning an All Ireland than today. Tyrone were physically and athletically dominated by Dublin yesterday.
Are there really any players outside the current squad that will make that much of an impact. I'm sure there will be calls for the likes of Coney and McNulty to be used as a target man type forward but both are badly lacking in the mobility needed for the game today. Have we really any better man markers than what played today in the county? Possibly young McKernan will get a call up today but realistically he's about 3 or 4 years of gym work off being able to man mark one of the Dublin lads yesterday.
It took yesterday to dawn on me how far ahead Dublin are of everyone else. Mayo have been the only side who look like they can match them physically and athletically in the past few years.
That's the bottom line - there are very few other players in the county that are capable of coming into that squad (not just man markers) and as you say it takes a few years to get up to intercounty level unless you are exceptional like O'Callaghan for the Dubs. A lot of our players were shown up yesterday as being decent county players but way short of that elite level. I think a change in approach would get us to the same stage as this year as standards are poor elsewhere but we are absolutely miles off the Dubs. That 2nd choice forward line they showed on the Sunday game last night was frightening.
It would give you a chance. What's the point in playing horrible, losing football? You've got good footballers, M Donnelly, Harte and McCann are players any team would want and you've got some very good, albeit small, forwards. Let them play football and see where it gets you.
Look at Kerry, they got spooked by the roasting their full back line got in the drawn game against Mayo and dropped one of the best forwards in Ireland. Instead of playing a sweeper they should have backed their forwards to score more than Mayo's. Had they done so who knows what would have happened. Good football teams like Tyrone need to show confidence in themselves and try to outscore their opponents. It may not win them an All Ireland but at least they'd go out on their shields and their fans can enjoy watching the journey.
The point in playing horrible losing football is the same point in playing beautiful losing football. Losing football does not win trophies. I'd rather us play horrible football and be competitive than play beautiful football and get ransacked by a decent side. If you play open Dublin will run straight through you, if you close up, they can do what they did yesterday. Tyrone contributed to their own downfall yesterday by not playing with aggression and not playing with needle, they needed to do that to have any chance.
Name me a side who has played attacking football and beat Dublin under Jim Gavin in Championship?
The only team to beat them playing a massed defence was Donegal and that was only because Dublin didn't set up properly. They now have the system to beat blanket defences so it's pointless setting up your whole season to lose without a fight. Kerry and Mayo have gone at Dublin and done much better than any team which has set up defensively.
You claimed that Tyrone's way of playing was the best way to beat Dublin but you were wrong. Tyrone need to be brave or you'll always be in that group of teams who are better than most but never good enough to beat the best. Why would you want that?
Quote from: yellowcard on August 28, 2017, 03:23:56 PM
There are no shortage of options for Tyrone should Harte's reign come to an end. Canavan, Logan, O'Rourke are obvious candidates but I really don't know think the Tyrone county board will replace him. It is going to be a problem at some stage though as I really don't see Harte stepping down anytime soon unless and until they win another AI title.
His Holiness is not infallible and there is going to come under some pressure and rightly so. I can't see him going quietly and if there is a push to get rid, then there will be lasting damage to the county. The longer he hangs on the worse it will be for Tyrone when he does eventually go as will take a bigger adjustment. Lessons from Meath (SB), Down (PMcG) and Kerry (MOD) all show that removal of a long term manager has long term consequences.
Quote from: Zulu on August 28, 2017, 03:26:07 PM
Quote from: omagh_gael on August 28, 2017, 03:13:32 PM
Ah come on Zulu, 9 times out of 10? Sure we should have beat them last year and we were totally off our game. Not saying we are clearly better but you're a bit off with that one, imo.
Yeah, I went a bit over the top there but I certainly think Mayo are better than Tyrone at the moment. Tyrone aren't far off if they back themselves more.
Fully agree, I'd say it's closer to 6 out of 10 in favour of Mayo.
For next year I'd say we'll have to compromise our defensive system slightly. I'd love to see us go with one man more in FF line and someone based on the 40 to provide an foot pass option out of defence. Something like this...
Sludden
Bradley R O'Neill .
We don't have any FFs that are 6ft plus who'll contest high ball but CoC amend Moran aren't huge men inside but win their fair share of long, early ball in and at least leave the other teams FB line honest and busy!
Ronan O'Neill isn't conditioned to start a game let alone carry the threat against the best.
Good for a cameo when games are dead and buried but not the athlete to hang the hat on for anything else.
Ronan has the best tan though.
Tyrone in no different to everyone else shocker.
The thing about long serving managers in any sport is they run out of ideas or players. Look at Man U.
Or Declan Kidney. Or Wenger.
Mickey owes Tyrone nothing. I think in a lot of ways for a lot of people he sort of is Tyrone. And that is some achievement.
Quote from: seafoid on August 28, 2017, 04:08:31 PM
Tyrone in no different to everyone else shocker.
The thing about long serving managers in any sport is they run out of ideas or players. Look at Man U.
Or Declan Kidney. Or Wenger.
Mickey owes Tyrone nothing. I think in a lot of ways for a lot of people he sort of is Tyrone. And that is some achievement.
Your dead right, but when they eventually go after an extended period of success, it leaves a bit of a mess - particularly if they don't go quietly.
The criticism of Micko was that he hadn't developed the team in later years, leaving a huge rebuilding job. Sean Boylan was routinely challenged by Eamon Barry who eventually got the job. That caused a right bit of upset round that time and Meath may have had just one manager (Colm Coyle) that supporters have been happy with since.
If Harte does go now, then he is actually leaving them in excellent shape for a transition. If he hangs on another few years and they go backwards these young players will all be a couple of years older, with a few more retirees and nothing to show for it. It could eventually force the hand of the co. board which won't be pleasant and would lead to serious bad-feeling.
Quote from: stew on August 28, 2017, 12:21:55 PM
Quote from: Jim_Murphy_74 on August 28, 2017, 11:53:02 AM
Quote from: seafoid on August 27, 2017, 09:09:37 PM
Tyrone might be looking at a decade or longer of mediocrity. The thing about being hammered at the business end is that it is often career ending. System meltdown is not good.
Mediocrity? Winning provincial titles and making the last four?
Tyrone players and supporters might expect (demand?) more, that's their prerogative but it will take a fair regression to lead them to mediocrity.
/Jim.
Tyrone are a fabulous side, they just ran into one of if not the best teams ever to play the game of gaelic football, 5 in a row is absolutely a possibility now, Dublin are young, hungry and managed brilliantly, I fear for Mayo in the AIF because to me they are nowhere near Tyrone and look what happened to them.
Tyron will be back, they have some fantastic players coming through but Dublin are going to dominate our game for a decade or more, they are that good.
Not sure how you work that out. Mayo are the closest side there is to Dublin atm, and last year too. They will compete and bring intensity. They are playing like men possessed. They have strong runners who will trouble Dublin.
Have to say that Tyrone's major problem yesterday was not being able to win primary possession especially from their own kick-out. All teams(except Mayo & Dublin) still need 2 or 3 big fielders in the middle 8 to win kick-outs when the short options are blocked off. Mayo and Dublin won a big lot of ball from Kerry and Tyrone in what is the most important aspect of todays game. Mayo will give Dublin a very competitive match ..... its a 50/50 game ... with the ref being a big factor
Quote from: seafoid on August 28, 2017, 04:08:31 PM
Tyrone in no different to everyone else shocker.
The thing about long serving managers in any sport is they run out of ideas or players. Look at Man U.
Or Declan Kidney. Or Wenger.
Mickey owes Tyrone nothing. I think in a lot of ways for a lot of people he sort of is Tyrone. And that is some achievement.
no man is bigger than his county you fool. If Harte thought more about his county rather than himself then should have quit years ago.
This is now Tyrone's longest gap between All Ireland Final Appearances since 1986. However, it is hard to see who will break their dominance in Ulster so they'll still be there or thereabouts in August. I'd be surprised if Monaghan continue to exceed expectations. Hard to know what Down and Cavan are capable of and Armagh, Derry and Fermanagh won't do much from Division 3. That leaves Donegal who with the right manager probably have it within themselves to compete with Tyrone.
Funny thing is I think the one team that might benefit from the Super-8s is Tyrone. They are young, athletic and learning. Extra games against quality opposition will help them develop. If they had got that tanking from Dublin in the Super 8s and met them again in the final, it would have been a different proposition.
Quote from: APM on August 28, 2017, 06:42:49 PM
This is now Tyrone's longest gap between All Ireland Final Appearances since 1986. However, it is hard to see who will break their dominance in Ulster so they'll still be there or thereabouts in August. I'd be surprised if Monaghan continue to exceed expectations. Hard to know what Down and Cavan are capable of and Armagh, Derry and Fermanagh won't do much from Division 3. That leaves Donegal who with the right manager probably have it within themselves to compete with Tyrone.
Funny thing is I think the one team that might benefit from the Super-8s is Tyrone. They are young, athletic and learning. Extra games against quality opposition will help them develop. If they had got that tanking from Dublin in the Super 8s and met them again in the final, it would have been a different proposition.
No it wouldn't.
Quote from: southtyronegael on August 28, 2017, 06:39:19 PM
Quote from: seafoid on August 28, 2017, 04:08:31 PM
Tyrone in no different to everyone else shocker.
The thing about long serving managers in any sport is they run out of ideas or players. Look at Man U.
Or Declan Kidney. Or Wenger.
Mickey owes Tyrone nothing. I think in a lot of ways for a lot of people he sort of is Tyrone. And that is some achievement.
no man is bigger than his county you fool. If Harte thought more about his county rather than himself then should have quit years ago.
That is bollocks. Some managers drag the county to the top by force of personality. Mickey found the Tyrone g spot.
Quote from: Rois on August 28, 2017, 01:21:08 PM
Quote from: Owen Brannigan on August 28, 2017, 12:45:14 PM
The u21 failures over a period of 5/6 years are coming home to roost.
I don't understand this - we won the U21 All Ireland in 2015 with what is still a very young team.
Do you mean that their transition to senior has failed?
Tyrone had one good year at u21 with Logan & Co but failed since then. Prior to that there were many barren years first under Donnelly and then Monroe. The minor AI champions of 2008 and 2010 lost out on u21 experience to AI level. The 2008 minors were Petey Harte's year and more of them should be making the backbone of the current senior team along with some of the 2010 champions as they are coming to their prime at 27/28 years old. By failing to gain championship experience at u21 level and being held out of the squad for too long by Mickey Harte holding on to his own AI winning players, a whole cohort of potential county players have missed out badly. 2015 AI u21 squad will take a while to mature enough to compete with Dublin but at least they have gained experience denied to the 2008 and 2010 AI minor champions.
Quote from: APM on August 28, 2017, 06:42:49 PM
This is now Tyrone's longest gap between All Ireland Final Appearances since 1986. However, it is hard to see who will break their dominance in Ulster so they'll still be there or thereabouts in August. I'd be surprised if Monaghan continue to exceed expectations. Hard to know what Down and Cavan are capable of and Armagh, Derry and Fermanagh won't do much from Division 3. That leaves Donegal who with the right manager probably have it within themselves to compete with Tyrone.
Funny thing is I think the one team that might benefit from the Super-8s is Tyrone. They are young, athletic and learning. Extra games against quality opposition will help them develop. If they had got that tanking from Dublin in the Super 8s and met them again in the final, it would have been a different proposition.
I highly doubt that. Mickey Harte is firmly entrenched in a negative tactical mindset, it's all about safety first. Even in his interview after the match he was sort of regretting having to try and attack more after they fell behind at half time as it meant that Dublin could exploit the extra space more. He is far too concerned with the opposition instead of trusting his own players ability a bit more.
No matter what,Mickey has kept Art Mc Rory out of the Tyrone manager's post for 15 years in a row.Some achievement
There's a lot of premature talk of this is the end of defensive football. I heard that before in '06 '10 and '14. Each time football evolved and became more defensive not less.
Stop worrying about Tyrone not able to match Dublin. Don't be using that to call for change. No team in Ireland will get near Dublin.
1 Dublin
2 No other county
3 No other county
4 Tyrone, Mayo, Kerry
5 No other county
6 Monaghan, Donegal, Galway
7 Tipperary, Down, Armagh, Clare, Meath, Kildare
8 The rest
Quote from: trileacman on August 28, 2017, 09:49:19 PM
There's a lot of premature talk of this is the end of defensive football. I heard that before in '06 '10 and '14. Each time football evolved and became more defensive not less.
How could it become more defensive, we've got 15 behind the ball now?
Beaten by every Div 1 team we have faced in AI series since 2008. The management structure does need a long hard review. Kerry and or Mayo would have given Dublin a much better game, I don't buy the Dublin are invincible talk, why didn't we at least mix it up or have a plan B to rattle them. Jim McGuinness in the Irish Times today I thought summed us up and couldn't believe how passive we were. With exception of Colm Cavanagh the rest of the team were so paralysed by our defensive striaghtjacket that they got very rapidly demoralised. I expect Mayo to at least put it up to Dublin, we desperately need a change in tactics/ approach.
Quote from: Zulu on August 28, 2017, 10:31:16 PM
Quote from: trileacman on August 28, 2017, 09:49:19 PM
There's a lot of premature talk of this is the end of defensive football. I heard that before in '06 '10 and '14. Each time football evolved and became more defensive not less.
How could it become more defensive, we've got 15 behind the ball now?
2 Goalies
Tyrone need to rediscover their inner swarm, it was totally absent v Dublin. Find the inner swarm and the rest will be built on that foundation.
Their inner mongrel must have got carried away by all the promo work.
It also looks like tyrone's mojo got married and settled down and lost a bit of focus
Mr Mojo was not risin'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JskztPPSJwY
Quote from: yellowcard on August 28, 2017, 08:59:20 PM
Quote from: APM on August 28, 2017, 06:42:49 PM
This is now Tyrone's longest gap between All Ireland Final Appearances since 1986. However, it is hard to see who will break their dominance in Ulster so they'll still be there or thereabouts in August. I'd be surprised if Monaghan continue to exceed expectations. Hard to know what Down and Cavan are capable of and Armagh, Derry and Fermanagh won't do much from Division 3. That leaves Donegal who with the right manager probably have it within themselves to compete with Tyrone.
Funny thing is I think the one team that might benefit from the Super-8s is Tyrone. They are young, athletic and learning. Extra games against quality opposition will help them develop. If they had got that tanking from Dublin in the Super 8s and met them again in the final, it would have been a different proposition.
I highly doubt that. Mickey Harte is firmly entrenched in a negative tactical mindset, it's all about safety first. Even in his interview after the match he was sort of regretting having to try and attack more after they fell behind at half time as it meant that Dublin could exploit the extra space more. He is far too concerned with the opposition instead of trusting his own players ability a bit more.
No matter about the tactical mindset, which is a huge constraint in itself, I think the biggest problem Tyrone had on Sunday was that they didn't show any intensity. All year they have kept their discipline and not fouled, but against Dublin I think that almost translated into standing off their men. Some of Dublin's scores came from situations where the player in possession was being closely shadowed by a couple of Tyrone players, yet they were able to get away the shot. Would love to see the stats, because it seemed like only Dublin was turning over the ball where as Tyrone were doing in attack exactly what they hoped Dublin would do; carry the ball into possession and lose it. But Tyrone were very loose in general and the turnover for the first Dublin goal was a good example. Loose pass, receiving player waited and Dublin stole possession. Dublin had all the urgency and intensity. Once they got that goal, Tyrone were in big trouble as that defensive system only caters for easy or tight winable games. It doesn't offer any solutions for games that you are losing.
If that game was replayed and Tyrone raised their intensity levels to what they are capable of, it would be a different proposition. I doubt if Tyrone would win, but there would wouldn't be 15 points in it and it would be competitive going into the last 15 minutes.
ahh there only be 10points in it!!
Quote from: APM on August 29, 2017, 03:01:36 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on August 28, 2017, 08:59:20 PM
Quote from: APM on August 28, 2017, 06:42:49 PM
This is now Tyrone's longest gap between All Ireland Final Appearances since 1986. However, it is hard to see who will break their dominance in Ulster so they'll still be there or thereabouts in August. I'd be surprised if Monaghan continue to exceed expectations. Hard to know what Down and Cavan are capable of and Armagh, Derry and Fermanagh won't do much from Division 3. That leaves Donegal who with the right manager probably have it within themselves to compete with Tyrone.
Funny thing is I think the one team that might benefit from the Super-8s is Tyrone. They are young, athletic and learning. Extra games against quality opposition will help them develop. If they had got that tanking from Dublin in the Super 8s and met them again in the final, it would have been a different proposition.
I highly doubt that. Mickey Harte is firmly entrenched in a negative tactical mindset, it's all about safety first. Even in his interview after the match he was sort of regretting having to try and attack more after they fell behind at half time as it meant that Dublin could exploit the extra space more. He is far too concerned with the opposition instead of trusting his own players ability a bit more.
No matter about the tactical mindset, which is a huge constraint in itself, I think the biggest problem Tyrone had on Sunday was that they didn't show any intensity. All year they have kept their discipline and not fouled, but against Dublin I think that almost translated into standing off their men. Some of Dublin's scores came from situations where the player in possession was being closely shadowed by a couple of Tyrone players, yet they were able to get away the shot. Would love to see the stats, because it seemed like only Dublin was turning over the ball where as Tyrone were doing in attack exactly what they hoped Dublin would do; carry the ball into possession and lose it. But Tyrone were very loose in general and the turnover for the first Dublin goal was a good example. Loose pass, receiving player waited and Dublin stole possession. Dublin had all the urgency and intensity. Once they got that goal, Tyrone were in big trouble as that defensive system only caters for easy or tight winable games. It doesn't offer any solutions for games that you are losing.
If that game was replayed and Tyrone raised their intensity levels to what they are capable of, it would be a different proposition. I doubt if Tyrone would win, but there would wouldn't be 15 points in it and it would be competitive going into the last 15 minutes.
There is plenty of truth in the Tyrone lack of intensity argument. They were overly passive and that is the danger of a zonal system where it is easier for players to pass on responsibility. Witness McNamee buying the O'Callaghan dummy for the goal or McCann almost turning his back on the play when McMenamin hit the crossbar. Harte deserves some criticism but the players have almost escaped blame because of many pundits desire to simply apportion all of the blame on Harte. Apart from Cavanagh, I was amazed at how nice Tyrone were. They wilted pre match by breaking off the parade before the hill and continued to show Dublin way too much respect when the game began. I simply don't think they have those type of win at all cost characters anymore and there is a mental softness that resurfaced again on Sunday.
Big statement
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DI_TomAXkAElyjY.jpg:large)
3 years - that's a lot of Hail Marys
Far from me to comment on Tyrone football but that's bonkers.
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on September 05, 2017, 10:33:42 PM
Far from me to comment on Tyrone football but that's bonkers.
Bonkers? Its a f...ing joke.
Not a surprise from the outside looking in as I think there are no credible candidates who would challenge him. What would the general feeling be in Tyrone, the impression I get is that it would be mixed at best in favour of Harte starting.
Amazing anyone could think this Tyrone side could be any better with anyone else.
Quote from: yellowcard on September 05, 2017, 10:39:02 PM
Not a surprise from the outside looking in as I think there are no credible candidates who would challenge him. What would the general feeling be in Tyrone, the impression I get is that it would be mixed at best in favour of Harte starting.
I think this line that people are rolling out is totally inaccurate - possibly there is no one who would want to displace Harte but plenty would want it and do a good job if he stepped aside. But that means that the county board hand is forced.
I think Hartes (as good as he was and we all know he was really good) management days are outdated - Jim Gavin proved that!
And he does it all for the love of the game too. . .
I'm ecstatic the longer they keep him the longer Tyrone will keep getting beaten by the top sides! I was hoping for 5 years!!
Quote from: Syferus on September 05, 2017, 10:40:15 PM
Amazing anyone could think this Tyrone side could be any better with anyone else.
Whatever Harte's faults no one will do better for Tyrone than him. Bet there'll be no player revolt there. Who do dissatisfied Tyrone supporters think should manage in his place?
Quote from: thebuzz on September 05, 2017, 11:40:39 PM
Quote from: Syferus on September 05, 2017, 10:40:15 PM
Amazing anyone could think this Tyrone side could be any better with anyone else.
Whatever Harte's faults no one will do better for Tyrone than him. Bet there'll be no player revolt there. Who do dissatisfied Tyrone supporters think should manage in his place?
They want Logan and Dooher and who can blame them? Ulster's and McKenna cups mean very little anymore and they need some fresh thinking to get over the line. Many Tyrone men will tell you that the best players aren't playing for the county because they don't fit into the "system" Logan and Dooher could at least wipe the slate clean in that regard.
Probably cheaper too!!
Quote from: screenexile on September 05, 2017, 11:45:48 PM
Quote from: thebuzz on September 05, 2017, 11:40:39 PM
Quote from: Syferus on September 05, 2017, 10:40:15 PM
Amazing anyone could think this Tyrone side could be any better with anyone else.
Whatever Harte's faults no one will do better for Tyrone than him. Bet there'll be no player revolt there. Who do dissatisfied Tyrone supporters think should manage in his place?
They want Logan and Dooher and who can blame them? Ulster's and McKenna cups mean very little anymore and they need some fresh thinking to get over the line. Many Tyrone men will tell you that the best players aren't playing for the county because they don't fit into the "system" Logan and Dooher could at least wipe the slate clean in that regard.
Probably cheaper too!!
Well he must have presented some new plan to get three years.
Quote from: Syferus on September 05, 2017, 10:40:15 PM
Amazing anyone could think this Tyrone side could be any better with anyone else.
Very true
Quote from: thebuzz on September 05, 2017, 11:56:33 PM
Quote from: screenexile on September 05, 2017, 11:45:48 PM
Quote from: thebuzz on September 05, 2017, 11:40:39 PM
Quote from: Syferus on September 05, 2017, 10:40:15 PM
Amazing anyone could think this Tyrone side could be any better with anyone else.
Whatever Harte's faults no one will do better for Tyrone than him. Bet there'll be no player revolt there. Who do dissatisfied Tyrone supporters think should manage in his place?
I think next year will show us just how great Harte is one way or the other, he does not need to beat the Dubs but he really does need to step away from the negative shite he stifles his players with, having 14 men behind the ball in Ulster is a waste of time and effort as they are light years ahead of anyone else, he needs to develop several new strategies for games depending on who he is playing and how a game is going etc, against Dublin they were one dimensional, not good enough.
They want Logan and Dooher and who can blame them? Ulster's and McKenna cups mean very little anymore and they need some fresh thinking to get over the line. Many Tyrone men will tell you that the best players aren't playing for the county because they don't fit into the "system" Logan and Dooher could at least wipe the slate clean in that regard.
Probably cheaper too!!
Well he must have presented some new plan to get three years.
A very sad day for real football.
I understand Mickey has been through a lot but I absolutely detest the style of football that he uses. Tyrone have plenty of good footballers and they are turned into robots, all run back, all run forward, don't think, don't react...
It may be effective against some teams but its desperate to watch and I would imagine not a lot of enjoyment to play with or against it.
Good decision.
Sams ours next year
Tyrone is mythological at this stage
The other parallel is the gelada footballers below in Kenya and the younger players getting access to the groupies
https://youtu.be/uDT0xSsrVIg
**awaits teaminamillion and southtyronegael ***
Quote from: screenexile on September 05, 2017, 11:45:48 PM
Quote from: thebuzz on September 05, 2017, 11:40:39 PM
Quote from: Syferus on September 05, 2017, 10:40:15 PM
Amazing anyone could think this Tyrone side could be any better with anyone else.
Whatever Harte's faults no one will do better for Tyrone than him. Bet there'll be no player revolt there. Who do dissatisfied Tyrone supporters think should manage in his place?
They want Logan and Dooher and who can blame them? Ulster's and McKenna cups mean very little anymore and they need some fresh thinking to get over the line. Many Tyrone men will tell you that the best players aren't playing for the county because they don't fit into the "system" Logan and Dooher could at least wipe the slate clean in that regard.
Probably cheaper too!!
Whatever the criticism that can be thrown at Harte, this is simply not true IMO
Omaghjoe you are delusional
Quote from: The Trap on September 06, 2017, 08:59:38 AM
Omaghjoe you are delusional
Groupthink . Cordyceps Hartes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuKjBIBBAL8
Quote from: thebuzz on September 05, 2017, 11:56:33 PM
Quote from: screenexile on September 05, 2017, 11:45:48 PM
Quote from: thebuzz on September 05, 2017, 11:40:39 PM
Quote from: Syferus on September 05, 2017, 10:40:15 PM
Amazing anyone could think this Tyrone side could be any better with anyone else.
Whatever Harte's faults no one will do better for Tyrone than him. Bet there'll be no player revolt there. Who do dissatisfied Tyrone supporters think should manage in his place?
They want Logan and Dooher and who can blame them? Ulster's and McKenna cups mean very little anymore and they need some fresh thinking to get over the line. Many Tyrone men will tell you that the best players aren't playing for the county because they don't fit into the "system" Logan and Dooher could at least wipe the slate clean in that regard.
Probably cheaper too!!
Well he must have presented some new plan to get three years.
He added a novena in.
Quote from: sligoman2 on September 06, 2017, 03:44:55 AM
A very sad day for real football.
I understand Mickey has been through a lot but I absolutely detest the style of football that he uses. Tyrone have plenty of good footballers and they are turned into robots, all run back, all run forward, don't think, don't react...
It may be effective against some teams but its desperate to watch and I would imagine not a lot of enjoyment to play with or against it.
Agreed
Quote from: sligoman2 on September 06, 2017, 03:44:55 AM
A very sad day for real football.
I understand Mickey has been through a lot but I absolutely detest the style of football that he uses. Tyrone have plenty of good footballers and they are turned into robots, all run back, all run forward, don't think, don't react...
It may be effective against some teams but its desperate to watch and I would imagine not a lot of enjoyment to play with or against it.
I would comment on the state of your counties football but you never really make it to TV and from what I hear a good club side in tyrone would beat you!
Right man for the job. a lot of "outside experts" haven't a clue and would love to see harte gone.
There is no replacement putting his hand up, the best players int he county are playing on the team, majority now from tyrone under 21 winning team, they are good players capable of going far, we lost to Dublin for a lot of reasons, logan and dooher play the exact same way and logan doesn't want it anyway!
Such hysteria
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on September 06, 2017, 08:26:42 AM
Quote from: screenexile on September 05, 2017, 11:45:48 PM
Quote from: thebuzz on September 05, 2017, 11:40:39 PM
Quote from: Syferus on September 05, 2017, 10:40:15 PM
Amazing anyone could think this Tyrone side could be any better with anyone else.
Whatever Harte's faults no one will do better for Tyrone than him. Bet there'll be no player revolt there. Who do dissatisfied Tyrone supporters think should manage in his place?
They want Logan and Dooher and who can blame them? Ulster's and McKenna cups mean very little anymore and they need some fresh thinking to get over the line. Many Tyrone men will tell you that the best players aren't playing for the county because they don't fit into the "system" Logan and Dooher could at least wipe the slate clean in that regard.
Probably cheaper too!!
Whatever the criticism that can be thrown at Harte, this is simply not true IMO
Id agree with this, I cant think of any players who aren't on the panel or involved that should be......all the best / most suitable players are in the current squad.
I'm gutted to hear this.
I was hoping he'd come to Offaly.
Quote from: omaghjoe on September 06, 2017, 05:18:13 AM
Good decision.
Sams ours next year
It'll have to be 2019 as Sam's heading for Derry next year *
* now that we've entered the realm of fantasy :)
Quote from: redhandefender on September 06, 2017, 09:11:40 AM
Quote from: sligoman2 on September 06, 2017, 03:44:55 AM
A very sad day for real football.
I understand Mickey has been through a lot but I absolutely detest the style of football that he uses. Tyrone have plenty of good footballers and they are turned into robots, all run back, all run forward, don't think, don't react...
It may be effective against some teams but its desperate to watch and I would imagine not a lot of enjoyment to play with or against it.
I would comment on the state of your counties football but you never really make it to TV and from what I hear a good club side in tyrone would beat you!
Right man for the job. a lot of "outside experts" haven't a clue and would love to see harte gone.
There is no replacement putting his hand up, the best players int he county are playing on the team, majority now from tyrone under 21 winning team, they are good players capable of going far, we lost to Dublin for a lot of reasons, logan and dooher play the exact same way and logan doesn't want it anyway!
Such hysteria
Can you not let someone have an opinion different to your own without having a go at them - we all know people are split on Mickey but no need to push your own thoughts so hard
Mixed feelings over this. Mickey is a legend of Tyrone GAA and a pretty inspirational man who has handled himself with dignity in terrible times, and helped others in their time of need. My preference over the years was that Mickey would chose - within reason - when he wanted to walk away from the job.
However, I have long been uneasy with the style of football Mickey has used to build this new team. It isn't good to watch, I doubt it's fun to play in, and the only reason you would play this way would be if it beat better teams. But in Tyrone's case it never has. This Tyrone team hasn't beaten anybody that they wouldn't have beaten anyway playing a more expansive style. And playing a more expansive style would give them at least a puncher's chance against the likes of Dublin.
I was bemused by how hopeful some Tyrone fans were before the Dublin game. That wasn't total faith, it was blind faith, for there was no evidence at all that Tyrone could win that match. In the end they were even worse than I expected. For all the talk of being the best prepared team ever from Ulster, they actually had no idea what to do after the 5th minute. Given the resources put into that team it was a shambolic performance and a damning indictment on the management team. The last few years of Sean Cavanagh were squandered with a system that certainly didn't get the best out of him. If we persist with this style then the same will happen with Peter Harte and Mattie Donnelly. Really, the truth is that Mickey made a major error of judgment when he started out building this new team and he should have walked away now. Given he is staying we just have to hope that he accepts that he backed the wrong horse with this style and that he makes more of the natural talent that he has at his disposal. Nobody is suggesting going man to man, but please put a bit more trust in your defenders to defend and your attackers to attack.
Quote from: redhandefender on September 06, 2017, 09:11:40 AM
Quote from: sligoman2 on September 06, 2017, 03:44:55 AM
A very sad day for real football.
I understand Mickey has been through a lot but I absolutely detest the style of football that he uses. Tyrone have plenty of good footballers and they are turned into robots, all run back, all run forward, don't think, don't react...
It may be effective against some teams but its desperate to watch and I would imagine not a lot of enjoyment to play with or against it.
I would comment on the state of your counties football but you never really make it to TV and from what I hear a good club side in tyrone would beat you!
We have been in televised live matches each of the last four years for what it's worth, and while we are more than aware of our limitations we do think we can do better than we are under the spoofer we currently have, not third Sunday in September better but being more competitive nonetheless. It's different to Tyrone, they are one of the closest challengers to the present Dublin hegemony and personally I thought they were capable of turning them over if they got everything right. A lot of us are worried that the championship is slowly becoming a one-horse race with 2/3 desperately giving chase so to have one of that pack arguably not getting the maximum out of themselves is unhelpful.
Harte has a great record and what he has given to Tyrone is undeniable but as Boylan and O'Dwyer found out, the hardest thing is knowing when the time is right to go. Whether there are better options in the county I don't know but sometimes a new voice or thinking to push the thing on can make the difference, as it did with himself in 2003.
Quote from: redhandefender on September 06, 2017, 09:11:40 AM
Quote from: sligoman2 on September 06, 2017, 03:44:55 AM
A very sad day for real football.
I understand Mickey has been through a lot but I absolutely detest the style of football that he uses. Tyrone have plenty of good footballers and they are turned into robots, all run back, all run forward, don't think, don't react...
It may be effective against some teams but its desperate to watch and I would imagine not a lot of enjoyment to play with or against it.
I would comment on the state of your counties football but you never really make it to TV and from what I hear a good club side in tyrone would beat you!
Right man for the job. a lot of "outside experts" haven't a clue and would love to see harte gone.
There is no replacement putting his hand up, the best players int he county are playing on the team, majority now from tyrone under 21 winning team, they are good players capable of going far, we lost to Dublin for a lot of reasons, logan and dooher play the exact same way and logan doesn't want it anyway!
Such hysteria
Such arrogance. Since when have Tyrone produced a good club side! Bar Errigal in the 90's
Quote from: Owenmoresider on September 06, 2017, 09:59:20 AM
Quote from: redhandefender on September 06, 2017, 09:11:40 AM
Quote from: sligoman2 on September 06, 2017, 03:44:55 AM
A very sad day for real football.
I understand Mickey has been through a lot but I absolutely detest the style of football that he uses. Tyrone have plenty of good footballers and they are turned into robots, all run back, all run forward, don't think, don't react...
It may be effective against some teams but its desperate to watch and I would imagine not a lot of enjoyment to play with or against it.
I would comment on the state of your counties football but you never really make it to TV and from what I hear a good club side in tyrone would beat you!
We have been in televised live matches each of the last four years for what it's worth, and while we are more than aware of our limitations we do think we can do better than we are under the spoofer we currently have, not third Sunday in September better but being more competitive nonetheless. It's different to Tyrone, they are one of the closest challengers to the present Dublin hegemony and personally I thought they were capable of turning them over if they got everything right. A lot of us are worried that the championship is slowly becoming a one-horse race with 2/3 desperately giving chase so to have one of that pack arguably not getting the maximum out of themselves is unhelpful.
Harte has a great record and what he has given to Tyrone is undeniable but as Boylan and O'Dwyer found out, the hardest thing is knowing when the time is right to go. Whether there are better options in the county I don't know but sometimes a new voice or thinking to push the thing on can make the difference, as it did with himself in 2003.
Good post OMS. The very least Mickey Harte deserves is a little respect and no more than Micko or Boylan if that means letting him stay longer than he should then that's the side to err on. He has earned it.
Criticisms of the style of play are a little over the top for me. Look at the scores they put up all season. They got humbled (but not disgraced) by a superb team (who had 3 footballers of the year on the bench) who played brilliantly and got a crucial early goal. Most people gave them a chance of winning that game beforehand. It's quite possible they were the second best team in the country this year.
I'm not sure who else in Tyrone wants it and certainly no one wants to take Harte out and rightly so. 3 years is perhaps a little long.
Sligoman2 - I'm not sure I remember you being as angry and upset at the reappointment of a "manager" who is infinitely worse in every way to our own county. Remember the performance and "tactics" against a very poor Mayo (at the time) this year? 14 men back but no plan to actually get forward and score - do you remember? Hoofing it in to a relatively immobile single forward.
They should make Mickey director of Football or Something. He needs to be involved with the team. But he shouldn't be the only one with ideas
Quote from: redhandefender on September 06, 2017, 09:11:40 AM
Quote from: sligoman2 on September 06, 2017, 03:44:55 AM
A very sad day for real football.
I understand Mickey has been through a lot but I absolutely detest the style of football that he uses. Tyrone have plenty of good footballers and they are turned into robots, all run back, all run forward, don't think, don't react...
It may be effective against some teams but its desperate to watch and I would imagine not a lot of enjoyment to play with or against it.
I would comment on the state of your counties football but you never really make it to TV and from what I hear a good club side in tyrone would beat you!
Right man for the job. a lot of "outside experts" haven't a clue and would love to see harte gone.
There is no replacement putting his hand up, the best players int he county are playing on the team, majority now from tyrone under 21 winning team, they are good players capable of going far, we lost to Dublin for a lot of reasons, logan and dooher play the exact same way and logan doesn't want it anyway!
Such hysteria
Red hand my boy the topic of the thread is where now for Tyrone, not where now for Sligo. I think I speak for a lot of supporters from inside and outside Tyrone when I say the type of football that Tyrone play is hard to watch. I go to games and watch games on TV for enjoyment and I don't enjoy watching Tyrone because it's boring robotic stuff. Unfortunately it's effective against average teams and so Mickey has continued with it.
Mickey himself said his team in not there to entertain the fans and he certainly delivered on that promise.
I get your point on Carew Seanie, I'm not a huge fan either but I am happy with the number of young players he has introduced and I think the future is brighter than it has been in a long time. Tactically he got it very wrong against Mayo, but apart from the 2 goals Mayo got that should not have been allowed, we were very close on the scoreboard and look where they are now.
Quote from: screenexile on September 05, 2017, 11:45:48 PM
Quote from: thebuzz on September 05, 2017, 11:40:39 PM
Quote from: Syferus on September 05, 2017, 10:40:15 PM
Amazing anyone could think this Tyrone side could be any better with anyone else.
Whatever Harte's faults no one will do better for Tyrone than him. Bet there'll be no player revolt there. Who do dissatisfied Tyrone supporters think should manage in his place?
They want Logan and Dooher and who can blame them? Ulster's and McKenna cups mean very little anymore and they need some fresh thinking to get over the line. Many Tyrone men will tell you that the best players aren't playing for the county because they don't fit into the "system" Logan and Dooher could at least wipe the slate clean in that regard.
Probably cheaper too!!
You could say the same for every county in Ireland excepting Dublin. Look back on the posts by Mayo contributors earlier in the year and you will find that Rochford & Co know nothing about Mayo football and were deliberately ignoring the finest talent in the county.
Quote from: sligoman2 on September 06, 2017, 12:30:16 PM
Quote from: redhandefender on September 06, 2017, 09:11:40 AM
Quote from: sligoman2 on September 06, 2017, 03:44:55 AM
A very sad day for real football.
I understand Mickey has been through a lot but I absolutely detest the style of football that he uses. Tyrone have plenty of good footballers and they are turned into robots, all run back, all run forward, don't think, don't react...
It may be effective against some teams but its desperate to watch and I would imagine not a lot of enjoyment to play with or against it.
I would comment on the state of your counties football but you never really make it to TV and from what I hear a good club side in tyrone would beat you!
Right man for the job. a lot of "outside experts" haven't a clue and would love to see harte gone.
There is no replacement putting his hand up, the best players int he county are playing on the team, majority now from tyrone under 21 winning team, they are good players capable of going far, we lost to Dublin for a lot of reasons, logan and dooher play the exact same way and logan doesn't want it anyway!
Such hysteria
Red hand my boy the topic of the thread is where now for Tyrone, not where now for Sligo. I think I speak for a lot of supporters from inside and outside Tyrone when I say the type of football that Tyrone play is hard to watch. I go to games and watch games on TV for enjoyment and I don't enjoy watching Tyrone because it's boring robotic stuff. Unfortunately it's effective against average teams and so Mickey has continued with it.
Mickey himself said his team in not there to entertain the fans and he certainly delivered on that promise.
I get your point on Carew Seanie, I'm not a huge fan either but I am happy with the number of young players he has introduced and I think the future is brighter than it has been in a long time. Tactically he got it very wrong against Mayo, but apart from the 2 goals Mayo got that should not have been allowed, we were very close on the scoreboard and look where they are now.
Tyrone are infinitely more enjoyable to watch than Sligo and if Mickey Harte was managing us instead of that clown we would have won that game, no question. Defending is a skill but as Dublin showed, really good players making smart decisions and executing the skills of the game precisely will come out on top against any defensive system. You should reserve your annoyance for the poorly prepared teams (despite huge preparation time, effort and expenditure) who cannot play football.
The Mayo that played us that day were useless. They're a totally different team now. I'm unsure if it's by accident or design but they're a totally different side since the Roscommon draw.
I can be annoyed at both Sligo and others who play poor boring football. Completely disagree with your comment about Tyrone being more enjoyable to watch, we might not be successful but we have provided lots of entertainment over the years...
Is Vinny back this year??????
:)
In fairness most counties would kill for the McKenna cup - what are they going for 7 in a row - up there with the best!
Quote from: punt kick on September 06, 2017, 01:36:38 PM
In fairness most counties would kill for the McKenna cup - what are they going for 7 in a row - up there with the best!
There's 8 other counties would be dying to get 2 in a row ulsters tho.
Quote from: mrhardyannual on September 06, 2017, 01:01:01 PM
Quote from: screenexile on September 05, 2017, 11:45:48 PM
Quote from: thebuzz on September 05, 2017, 11:40:39 PM
Quote from: Syferus on September 05, 2017, 10:40:15 PM
Amazing anyone could think this Tyrone side could be any better with anyone else.
Whatever Harte's faults no one will do better for Tyrone than him. Bet there'll be no player revolt there. Who do dissatisfied Tyrone supporters think should manage in his place?
They want Logan and Dooher and who can blame them? Ulster's and McKenna cups mean very little anymore and they need some fresh thinking to get over the line. Many Tyrone men will tell you that the best players aren't playing for the county because they don't fit into the "system" Logan and Dooher could at least wipe the slate clean in that regard.
Probably cheaper too!!
You could say the same for every county in Ireland excepting Dublin. Look back on the posts by Mayo contributors earlier in the year and you will find that Rochford & Co know nothing about Mayo football and were deliberately ignoring the finest talent in the county.
It's simply not true that there are better players being overlooked around the county. The best players are playing or have been given opportunities to play.
Quote from: sligoman2 on September 06, 2017, 01:33:53 PM
I can be annoyed at both Sligo and others who play poor boring football. Completely disagree with your comment about Tyrone being more enjoyable to watch, we might not be successful but we have provided lots of entertainment over the years...
Is Vinny back this year??????
:)
I have found tyrone enjoyable to watch apart from Kerry in the league and Dublin the last day. To each their own. But you know what, you know now you can tune out for the next 3 years and watch Glen Roe instead. I don't really care.
Hopefully we get a crack at you next year to make your experience even more enjoyable.
"Whats now for tyrone" simple they go back at it trying to formulate a plan to stay in div 1, win ulster and try crack one of the big 3! Enjoyable year ahead, hows your plans looking?
Is it impossible for Tyronies to respond on topic to a post without reference to how shite the other poster's own county is? Childish & tiresome whataboutery.
Quote from: sligoman2 on September 06, 2017, 01:33:53 PM
I can be annoyed at both Sligo and others who play poor boring football. Completely disagree with your comment about Tyrone being more enjoyable to watch, we might not be successful but we have provided lots of entertainment over the years...
Is Vinny back this year??????
:)
I haven't heard and he's still in NY afaik. I'd seriously doubt he'll go back in with that management which is a terrible pity. I understand where he's coming from, he was treated terribly. going back out to NY this summer was nuts though, only people he hurt was his club (and himself).
Quote from: screenexile on September 05, 2017, 11:45:48 PM
Quote from: thebuzz on September 05, 2017, 11:40:39 PM
Quote from: Syferus on September 05, 2017, 10:40:15 PM
Amazing anyone could think this Tyrone side could be any better with anyone else.
Whatever Harte's faults no one will do better for Tyrone than him. Bet there'll be no player revolt there. Who do dissatisfied Tyrone supporters think should manage in his place?
They want Logan and Dooher and who can blame them? Ulster's and McKenna cups mean very little anymore and they need some fresh thinking to get over the line. Many Tyrone men will tell you that the best players aren't playing for the county because they don't fit into the "system" Logan and Dooher could at least wipe the slate clean in that regard.
Probably cheaper too!!
lol .. Can someone tell me why a Londonderry man is posting on a Gaelic football site? :o
Quote from: bennydorano on September 06, 2017, 03:19:38 PM
Is it impossible for Tyronies to respond on topic to a post without reference to how shite the other poster's own county is? Childish & tiresome whataboutery.
There's plenty of posts on this thread that don't reference other counties. But lets be honest, there's people who are equally childish from neighboring counties who are delighted to dance on the Tyrone corpse despite the fact that Tyrone still won Ulster at a canter.
I know it was. It was gut wrenching. But we were beat by a far better team. It happens in football. I don't believe any other manager would have gotten us any closer to Dublin. They are a level above everyone at the minute in my opinion. I would be surprised to see them not run out 5 point victors against Mayo (Sorry Mayo lads, and I sincerely hope I'm wrong).
I think we are all playing for second place at the minute as I think Dublin will continue to get stronger.
Quote from: trueblue1234 on September 06, 2017, 03:51:36 PM
I know it was. It was gut wrenching. But we were beat by a far better team. It happens in football. I don't believe any other manager would have gotten us any closer to Dublin. They are a level above everyone at the minute in my opinion. I would be surprised to see them not run out 5 point victors against Mayo (Sorry Mayo lads, and I sincerely hope I'm wrong).
I think we are all playing for second place at the minute as I think Dublin will continue to get stronger.
aye but at least have a cut at them... was lowest tackle count against the Dubs in recent years...
Quote from: bennydorano on September 06, 2017, 03:19:38 PM
Is it impossible for Tyronies to respond on topic to a post without reference to how shite the other poster's own county is? Childish & tiresome whataboutery.
Someone from another county starts a thread about tyrone on the main board so that a queue can line up to have a dig at them.
Yes you turkey expect me to go on the offensive if you are having a go!
And I will always call hypocrisy, a man from Sligo slating the way tyrone play football, please God!
I know, poor day at the office and I can understand why everyone is frustrated. I came out of Croke Park feeling the worst I ever did after a Tyrone game. But we have to view it logically. We looked a level above everyone else in Ulster this year and I would think we would give either of Kerry or Mayo a game. Yes i would have hoped we would have given Dublin a better game of it, but we've have to chalk that down and learn from it. I just don't think that because we were beat by the best team I've seen play the sport, that we need to start from scratch. We are still in a much better place than most counties and that's not a god given right either.
Quote from: redhandefender on September 06, 2017, 04:02:25 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on September 06, 2017, 03:19:38 PM
Is it impossible for Tyronies to respond on topic to a post without reference to how shite the other poster's own county is? Childish & tiresome whataboutery.
Someone from another county starts a thread about tyrone on the main board so that a queue can line up to have a dig at them.
Yes you turkey expect me to go on the offensive if you are having a go!
And I will always call hypocrisy, a man from Sligo slating the way tyrone play football, please God!
Why is it hypocritical? How would you know what way Sligo play, tactically or asthetically? It's the direness of Tyrone that is the issue, not the trophy count.
Quote from: bennydorano on September 06, 2017, 04:18:02 PM
Quote from: redhandefender on September 06, 2017, 04:02:25 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on September 06, 2017, 03:19:38 PM
Is it impossible for Tyronies to respond on topic to a post without reference to how shite the other poster's own county is? Childish & tiresome whataboutery.
Someone from another county starts a thread about tyrone on the main board so that a queue can line up to have a dig at them.
Yes you turkey expect me to go on the offensive if you are having a go!
And I will always call hypocrisy, a man from Sligo slating the way tyrone play football, please God!
Why is it hypocritical? How would you know what way Sligo play, tactically or asthetically? It's the direness of Tyrone that is the issue, not the trophy count.
I don't know if it's just that having a horse in the race make it better but I've had no problem watching Tyrone this year. In fact some of their long range scoring has been great to watch and with McCann, Harte, Sludden and Cavanagh (Colly) they've had some of the best players in Ireland. Then only boring aspect has been the ease at which they progressed this year. And tbh I don't think that helped them as the hype built and they were never really under any pressure in any of the games. So the step up when they came to Dublin was huge.
Where ever they go they will do so without Justin McMahon. No big surprise but was a great footballer before being hounded with injuries.
Quote from: trueblue1234 on September 06, 2017, 04:34:13 PM
Where ever they go they will do so without Justin McMahon. No big surprise but was a great footballer before being hounded with injuries.
Has he called it a day?
Yip
Quote from: bennydorano on September 06, 2017, 04:18:02 PM
Quote from: redhandefender on September 06, 2017, 04:02:25 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on September 06, 2017, 03:19:38 PM
Is it impossible for Tyronies to respond on topic to a post without reference to how shite the other poster's own county is? Childish & tiresome whataboutery.
Someone from another county starts a thread about tyrone on the main board so that a queue can line up to have a dig at them.
Yes you turkey expect me to go on the offensive if you are having a go!
You made the so called "direness" of tyrone the issue. I am telling you that a team with 3 wins in div 3 must be a joy t watch!
Tyrone in full steam are great to watch. As I say there is a reason the cameras don't roll up to watch you boys
And I will always call hypocrisy, a man from Sligo slating the way tyrone play football, please God!
Why is it hypocritical? How would you know what way Sligo play, tactically or asthetically? It's the direness of Tyrone that is the issue, not the trophy count.
Quote from: bennydorano on September 06, 2017, 03:19:38 PM
Is it impossible for Tyronies to respond on topic to a post without reference to how shite the other poster's own county is? Childish & tiresome whataboutery.
Armagh are crap >:(
.
.
.
.
ok, only joking ::) lol
Quote from: trueblue1234 on September 06, 2017, 03:51:36 PM
I know it was. It was gut wrenching. But we were beat by a far better team. It happens in football. I don't believe any other manager would have gotten us any closer to Dublin. They are a level above everyone at the minute in my opinion. I would be surprised to see them not run out 5 point victors against Mayo (Sorry Mayo lads, and I sincerely hope I'm wrong).
I think we are all playing for second place at the minute as I think Dublin will continue to get stronger.
Am I the only one who thinks that the Dubs arent exactly as "unbeatable" as everyone is making out ?
We were "absolute sh1te" on the day, we stood off them, never laid a hand on them .. We would have made anyone look good...
Maybe Im wrong but I honestly dont think they're all they're being cracked up to be .. very good yes but still overrated IMHO.
Mayo for SAM :o
Another 3yrs G its turning into a Gerry Adams dictatorship where 1 man runs the show not the whole! Defensive football; it hasnt gone away u know!!
Quote from: redhandefender on September 06, 2017, 04:02:25 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on September 06, 2017, 03:19:38 PM
Is it impossible for Tyronies to respond on topic to a post without reference to how shite the other poster's own county is? Childish & tiresome whataboutery.
Someone from another county starts a thread about tyrone on the main board so that a queue can line up to have a dig at them.
Yes you turkey expect me to go on the offensive if you are having a go!
And I will always call hypocrisy, a man from Sligo slating the way tyrone play football, please God!
Sorry, I didn't realize you had to be from the big 4 or Tyrone to comment on Tyrone. The discussion board is for posters to post an opinion and that is what I have done. I have another opinion that I think I will keep to myself.
Quote from: seafoid on September 06, 2017, 12:17:09 PM
They should make Mickey director of Football or Something. He needs to be involved with the team. But he shouldn't be the only one with ideas
Trueblie is in recruitment he could get him the job. ;D
Quote from: AhNowRef on September 06, 2017, 06:03:55 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on September 06, 2017, 03:51:36 PM
I know it was. It was gut wrenching. But we were beat by a far better team. It happens in football. I don't believe any other manager would have gotten us any closer to Dublin. They are a level above everyone at the minute in my opinion. I would be surprised to see them not run out 5 point victors against Mayo (Sorry Mayo lads, and I sincerely hope I'm wrong).
I think we are all playing for second place at the minute as I think Dublin will continue to get stronger.
Am I the only one who thinks that the Dubs arent exactly as "unbeatable" as everyone is making out ?
We were "absolute sh1te" on the day, we stood off them, never laid a hand on them .. We would have made anyone look good...
Maybe Im wrong but I honestly dont think they're all they're being cracked up to be .. very good yes but still overrated IMHO.
Mayo for SAM :o
You're not the only one who thinks that!!! Much as I hate to say it, Tyrone didn't turn up for the game. No intensity and as you say stood off them. For a number of the Dublin scores, I felt Tyrone players were within blocking distance, but they didn't seem to have the stomach for it. Play the same game a week later and it would have been a tighter result. Dublin haven't been tested all year and great and all as they are, I don't know if they'll be ready for the absolute hunger and physicality that Mayo will bring to the table in the final. Genuinely think Mayo are in with a great shout and they definitely won't fear the Dubs.
Surprised though that Harte has been given 3 years. If Tyrone regress next year, there'll be some row in the bushes.
Happy enough for Harte to stay on.
The style of football doesn't bother me as long as its getting the best out of the players available to him, which I think he is. I'd like to see a few defenders given a run next year and see if we can be a little bit more aggressive and on the front foot in what we're doing.
Unfortunately we're really lacking in big talented inside forwards which makes us very predictable. Coney has had his chances as has Niall McKenna, I don't think McNulty has the mobility to be effective in the very big games. Apart from that I don't think there is any other real options. I think Ronan O'Neill lacks the pace to be a top forward and McCurry looks like a player bereft of confidence the past two years, perhaps a year out might do him the world of good.
I'd like to see the squad freshened up in some ways.
We're badly lacking in size now with Justy and Sean Cavanagh stepping away so we'll need to add a few big physical lads back into the mix. How has Conor Clarke being doing with Omagh?
Quote from: APM on September 06, 2017, 07:16:30 PM
Quote from: AhNowRef on September 06, 2017, 06:03:55 PM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on September 06, 2017, 03:51:36 PM
I know it was. It was gut wrenching. But we were beat by a far better team. It happens in football. I don't believe any other manager would have gotten us any closer to Dublin. They are a level above everyone at the minute in my opinion. I would be surprised to see them not run out 5 point victors against Mayo (Sorry Mayo lads, and I sincerely hope I'm wrong).
I think we are all playing for second place at the minute as I think Dublin will continue to get stronger.
Am I the only one who thinks that the Dubs arent exactly as "unbeatable" as everyone is making out ?
We were "absolute sh1te" on the day, we stood off them, never laid a hand on them .. We would have made anyone look good...
Maybe Im wrong but I honestly dont think they're all they're being cracked up to be .. very good yes but still overrated IMHO.
Mayo for SAM :o
You're not the only one who thinks that!!! Much as I hate to say it, Tyrone didn't turn up for the game. No intensity and as you say stood off them. For a number of the Dublin scores, I felt Tyrone players were within blocking distance, but they didn't seem to have the stomach for it. Play the same game a week later and it would have been a tighter result. Dublin haven't been tested all year and great and all as they are, I don't know if they'll be ready for the absolute hunger and physicality that Mayo will bring to the table in the final. Genuinely think Mayo are in with a great shout and they definitely won't fear the Dubs.
Surprised though that Harte has been given 3 years. If Tyrone regress next year, there'll be some row in the bushes.
The clubs ratified him quite clearly so why would there be trouble if Tyrone regress? Imagine the reaction if the forced Mickey out and we regressed. Don't let the loud ones on here sway you into thinking there's a major revolt happening against Mickey - the performance v Dublin was bad but they are a serious team and on the whole we have made progress over the past 12 months. Anyway, the clubs voted and he is staying. I'm personally happy enough but I do think we need to use the three years to formulate some sort of succession plan.
Quote from: punt kick on September 06, 2017, 07:15:58 PM
Quote from: seafoid on September 06, 2017, 12:17:09 PM
They should make Mickey director of Football or Something. He needs to be involved with the team. But he shouldn't be the only one with ideas
Trueblie is in recruitment he could get him the job. ;D
Badum tshhhhhh
Quote from: omaghjoe on September 06, 2017, 05:18:13 AM
Good decision.
Sams ours next year
10th year lucky then.
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on September 06, 2017, 07:25:42 PM
Happy enough for Harte to stay on.
The style of football doesn't bother me as long as its getting the best out of the players available to him, which I think he is. I'd like to see a few defenders given a run next year and see if we can be a little bit more aggressive and on the front foot in what we're doing.
Unfortunately we're really lacking in big talented inside forwards which makes us very predictable. Coney has had his chances as has Niall McKenna, I don't think McNulty has the mobility to be effective in the very big games. Apart from that I don't think there is any other real options. I think Ronan O'Neill lacks the pace to be a top forward and McCurry looks like a player bereft of confidence the past two years, perhaps a year out might do him the world of good.
I'd like to see the squad freshened up in some ways.
We're badly lacking in size now with Justy and Sean Cavanagh stepping away so we'll need to add a few big physical lads back into the mix. How has Conor Clarke being doing with Omagh?
Agree about giving a few defenders a run out. Maybe drop Bradley and bring in a defender. And now that Sean has retired maybe bring in a more defensive minded player for that role
Quote from: redhandefender on September 06, 2017, 04:02:25 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on September 06, 2017, 03:19:38 PM
Is it impossible for Tyronies to respond on topic to a post without reference to how shite the other poster's own county is? Childish & tiresome whataboutery.
Someone from another county starts a thread about tyrone on the main board so that a queue can line up to have a dig at them.
Yes you turkey expect me to go on the offensive if you are having a go!
And I will always call hypocrisy, a man from Sligo slating the way tyrone play football, please God!
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: mcklatchee on September 06, 2017, 09:31:02 PM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on September 06, 2017, 07:25:42 PM
Happy enough for Harte to stay on.
The style of football doesn't bother me as long as its getting the best out of the players available to him, which I think he is. I'd like to see a few defenders given a run next year and see if we can be a little bit more aggressive and on the front foot in what we're doing.
Unfortunately we're really lacking in big talented inside forwards which makes us very predictable. Coney has had his chances as has Niall McKenna, I don't think McNulty has the mobility to be effective in the very big games. Apart from that I don't think there is any other real options. I think Ronan O'Neill lacks the pace to be a top forward and McCurry looks like a player bereft of confidence the past two years, perhaps a year out might do him the world of good.
I'd like to see the squad freshened up in some ways.
We're badly lacking in size now with Justy and Sean Cavanagh stepping away so we'll need to add a few big physical lads back into the mix. How has Conor Clarke being doing with Omagh?
Agree about giving a few defenders a run out. Maybe drop Bradley and bring in a defender. And now that Sean has retired maybe bring in a more defensive minded player for that role
So instead of playing a 1-13-1 formation, simply shut up shop and revert to a 1-14-0 formation. With the added caveat that Cavanaghs replacement is not allowed cross the halfway line.
tyrone may have won ulster but i actually think we were better last year. ulster is crap at the minute longford no disrespect beat down and monaghan last year. tyrone will not win another sam under mr conservative. hes the cheaper option at the minute for a team thats going to be rudderless next year on the pitch with all the old heads gone.
Quote from: ose 14 on September 07, 2017, 05:43:16 AM
tyrone may have won ulster but i actually think we were better last year. ulster is crap at the minute longford no disrespect beat down and monaghan last year. tyrone will not win another sam under mr conservative. hes the cheaper option at the minute for a team thats going to be rudderless next year on the pitch with all the old heads gone.
As bad as you say Ulster is, it still had 5 of the last 12 in the Championship this season.
There's a big gap between Dublin, Mayo Kerry and Tyrone - the results over the past three years have shown that and it's widened in that time rather than narrowed. And there's a big gap now opening up between Dublin and the rest, to be fair to Mayo they have competed admirably against Dublin and have never feared them but if Dublin go out and win the final with more comfort this time round, it's very worrying for the future of the game.
People who continually moan about defensive systems and style of football really get my back up. The All Ireland is competitive football, it is not exhibition football, teams are going about themselves in the way that they best believe can make them successful or competitive at the least. It goes without saying Dublin are a fearsome side, but with the advantages they have in terms of resources -financial and playing numbers, local employment, Croke Park being their de facto home ground.
The real death knell about about gaelic football right now is one side which always had superior natural advantages which no other side can come close to matching have managed to get their structures in order and as a result will dominate for time to come.
So those lamenting defensive football can shove it, it's something that's been borne out of bigger problem.
Is the question not where now for the rest? Dublin are so far ahead its getting scary as it shows no sign of slowing down. The way I see it:
Dublin
Mayo
Kerry
Tyrone
The Rest
Something needs to be addressed on structures or financing of teams.
If Dublin beat Mayo out the gate in the final will this have been the worst Football Championship ever played?
Quote from: WT4E on September 07, 2017, 09:07:36 AM
Is the question not where now for the rest? Dublin are so far ahead its getting scary as it shows no sign of slowing down. The way I see it:
Dublin
Mayo
Kerry
Tyrone
The Rest
Something needs to be addressed on structures or financing of teams.
If Dublin beat Mayo out the gate in the final will this have been the worst Football Championship ever played?
Yep. There was always a gap between many teams in the championship anyway, and the tiresome retort that no amount of money would make the likes of us competitive (aside from the few times that we were) is thrown out, but when the gap is not merely widening from the top teams to the minnows but is growing within the top echelon itself there is a problem. I don't want either team to win the final, but perhaps a thumping Dublin victory might be the catalyst for serious discussion about where the whole thing is headed.
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on September 07, 2017, 07:42:49 AM
Quote from: ose 14 on September 07, 2017, 05:43:16 AM
tyrone may have won ulster but i actually think we were better last year. ulster is crap at the minute longford no disrespect beat down and monaghan last year. tyrone will not win another sam under mr conservative. hes the cheaper option at the minute for a team thats going to be rudderless next year on the pitch with all the old heads gone.
As bad as you say Ulster is, it still had 5 of the last 12 in the Championship this season.
There's a big gap between Dublin, Mayo Kerry and Tyrone - the results over the past three years have shown that and it's widened in that time rather than narrowed. And there's a big gap now opening up between Dublin and the rest, to be fair to Mayo they have competed admirably against Dublin and have never feared them but if Dublin go out and win the final with more comfort this time round, it's very worrying for the future of the game.
People who continually moan about defensive systems and style of football really get my back up. The All Ireland is competitive football, it is not exhibition football, teams are going about themselves in the way that they best believe can make them successful or competitive at the least. It goes without saying Dublin are a fearsome side, but with the advantages they have in terms of resources -financial and playing numbers, local employment, Croke Park being their de facto home ground.
The real death knell about about gaelic football right now is one side which always had superior natural advantages which no other side can come close to matching have managed to get their structures in order and as a result will dominate for time to come.
So those lamenting defensive football can shove it, it's something that's been borne out of bigger problem.
That's nonsense in fairness. Sport the world over can be played competitively and entertainingly, it doesn't have to be dross to be competitive. I hate the way Tyrone play as it's awful to watch but I can understand Carlow or the like playing it but when Tyrone play like that against teams inferior to them then the sport itself is damaged. Earlier in the year the likes of yourself and some others were telling us all that at least the Ulster counties don't roll over and have a defensive plan to stifle the Dubs, well that proved to be the nonsense some of us told you it was.
We've already seen this year that football played properly is still a wonderful spectacle, the best in world sport for my money. Tyrone can compete playing more expansive football, you've some of the best players in Ireland, and if you back yourselves then you'll compete with anyone. You mightn't beat the Dubs too often but you'll never again beat them playing 14 behind the ball so surely it's better to entertain your fans on the journey?
Quote from: Zulu on September 07, 2017, 09:47:38 AM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on September 07, 2017, 07:42:49 AM
Quote from: ose 14 on September 07, 2017, 05:43:16 AM
tyrone may have won ulster but i actually think we were better last year. ulster is crap at the minute longford no disrespect beat down and monaghan last year. tyrone will not win another sam under mr conservative. hes the cheaper option at the minute for a team thats going to be rudderless next year on the pitch with all the old heads gone.
As bad as you say Ulster is, it still had 5 of the last 12 in the Championship this season.
There's a big gap between Dublin, Mayo Kerry and Tyrone - the results over the past three years have shown that and it's widened in that time rather than narrowed. And there's a big gap now opening up between Dublin and the rest, to be fair to Mayo they have competed admirably against Dublin and have never feared them but if Dublin go out and win the final with more comfort this time round, it's very worrying for the future of the game.
People who continually moan about defensive systems and style of football really get my back up. The All Ireland is competitive football, it is not exhibition football, teams are going about themselves in the way that they best believe can make them successful or competitive at the least. It goes without saying Dublin are a fearsome side, but with the advantages they have in terms of resources -financial and playing numbers, local employment, Croke Park being their de facto home ground.
The real death knell about about gaelic football right now is one side which always had superior natural advantages which no other side can come close to matching have managed to get their structures in order and as a result will dominate for time to come.
So those lamenting defensive football can shove it, it's something that's been borne out of bigger problem.
That's nonsense in fairness. Sport the world over can be played competitively and entertainingly, it doesn't have to be dross to be competitive. I hate the way Tyrone play as it's awful to watch but I can understand Carlow or the like playing it but when Tyrone play like that against teams inferior to them then the sport itself is damaged. Earlier in the year the likes of yourself and some others were telling us all that at least the Ulster counties don't roll over and have a defensive plan to stifle the Dubs, well that proved to be the nonsense some of us told you it was.
We've already seen this year that football played properly is still a wonderful spectacle, the best in world sport for my money. Tyrone can compete playing more expansive football, you've some of the best players in Ireland, and if you back yourselves then you'll compete with anyone. You mightn't beat the Dubs too often but you'll never again beat them playing 14 behind the ball so surely it's better to entertain your fans on the journey?
Zulu, I'm with Bomber here. It's damage limitation with most counties and it's the way it will stay for the foreseeable. It's a balls as a spectacle but that's the way of it.
Your bit in bold, you're talking about 3 counties out of 33 who play this way that can compete at the very top end.
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on September 06, 2017, 07:25:42 PM
Happy enough for Harte to stay on.
The style of football doesn't bother me as long as its getting the best out of the players available to him, which I think he is. I'd like to see a few defenders given a run next year and see if we can be a little bit more aggressive and on the front foot in what we're doing.
Unfortunately we're really lacking in big talented inside forwards which makes us very predictable. Coney has had his chances as has Niall McKenna, I don't think McNulty has the mobility to be effective in the very big games. Apart from that I don't think there is any other real options. I think Ronan O'Neill lacks the pace to be a top forward and McCurry looks like a player bereft of confidence the past two years, perhaps a year out might do him the world of good.
I'd like to see the squad freshened up in some ways.
We're badly lacking in size now with Justy and Sean Cavanagh stepping away so we'll need to add a few big physical lads back into the mix. How has Conor Clarke being doing with Omagh?
I'm sorry Bomber but this is a prime example of the aforementioned blind faith. The idea that Mickey got the best out of the players available to him against Dublin is ridiculous. All of the sides that Tyrone beat on their way to the semi were inferior. Dublin was the test of the system and we needed to at least make it some kind of contest to prove that Mickey had got this right. The game was effectively over in the 4th minute. Not because Dublin are miles better - but because Tyrone's system meant they couldn't come back from that goal. We needed to be more than the sum of our parts to have a chance against the Dubs. Because of Mickey's system, we were considerably less than the sum of our parts. A long, long way from getting the best out of the players. He needs to change his philosophy entirely.
Quote from: Lamh Dhearg Alba on September 07, 2017, 10:22:43 AM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on September 06, 2017, 07:25:42 PM
Happy enough for Harte to stay on.
The style of football doesn't bother me as long as its getting the best out of the players available to him, which I think he is. I'd like to see a few defenders given a run next year and see if we can be a little bit more aggressive and on the front foot in what we're doing.
Unfortunately we're really lacking in big talented inside forwards which makes us very predictable. Coney has had his chances as has Niall McKenna, I don't think McNulty has the mobility to be effective in the very big games. Apart from that I don't think there is any other real options. I think Ronan O'Neill lacks the pace to be a top forward and McCurry looks like a player bereft of confidence the past two years, perhaps a year out might do him the world of good.
I'd like to see the squad freshened up in some ways.
We're badly lacking in size now with Justy and Sean Cavanagh stepping away so we'll need to add a few big physical lads back into the mix. How has Conor Clarke being doing with Omagh?
I'm sorry Bomber but this is a prime example of the aforementioned blind faith. The idea that Mickey got the best out of the players available to him against Dublin is ridiculous. All of the sides that Tyrone beat on their way to the semi were inferior. Dublin was the test of the system and we needed to at least make it some kind of contest to prove that Mickey had got this right. The game was effectively over in the 4th minute. Not because Dublin are miles better - but because Tyrone's system meant they couldn't come back from that goal. We needed to be more than the sum of our parts to have a chance against the Dubs. Because of Mickey's system, we were considerably less than the sum of our parts. A long, long way from getting the best out of the players. He needs to change his philosophy entirely.
I would very much doubt that is going to happen.
is it not really just a case of Tyrone having a horror show against a strong Dublin team who are ruthless when the sense weakness, but other than that tyrone had quiet a good year and one match does not make a pattern. whether it was harte in charge or not tyrone are a top 4 side but a bit behind the other 3 but nothing a bit of new blood could not fix.
like wise
Kerry could have easily beaten mayo day 1 with a last minute free and would possibly be favorites foe the all Ireland but now are describe as a rabble who have to be dismantled.
the current short term thinking is what is damaging team and causing any drift between the top teams and the rest . Mangers must be given a free reign to settle and plan for the future or else you will end up with Tom Carr or Banty as manager every second year
The Rosary ws the wrong idea.
GAA is about performance at speed, not being on your knees.
Maybe someone else would understand that.
Mickey will always be Tyrone manager. He just doesn't have to call the shots.
Lot of potential in that Tyrone team. I wouldn't be writing any obituaries just yet
They have the right ingredients. bags of pace and skill
As for the gap between teams
If you look back over the last 60 years nothing much has changed
People seem more annoyed that it is Dublin who currently sit on top
No guarantee they will stay there. Current Dublin bunch are mentally and physically strong and skillful
the perfect storm
The next generation might not be
Quote from: Zulu on September 07, 2017, 09:47:38 AM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on September 07, 2017, 07:42:49 AM
Quote from: ose 14 on September 07, 2017, 05:43:16 AM
tyrone may have won ulster but i actually think we were better last year. ulster is crap at the minute longford no disrespect beat down and monaghan last year. tyrone will not win another sam under mr conservative. hes the cheaper option at the minute for a team thats going to be rudderless next year on the pitch with all the old heads gone.
As bad as you say Ulster is, it still had 5 of the last 12 in the Championship this season.
There's a big gap between Dublin, Mayo Kerry and Tyrone - the results over the past three years have shown that and it's widened in that time rather than narrowed. And there's a big gap now opening up between Dublin and the rest, to be fair to Mayo they have competed admirably against Dublin and have never feared them but if Dublin go out and win the final with more comfort this time round, it's very worrying for the future of the game.
People who continually moan about defensive systems and style of football really get my back up. The All Ireland is competitive football, it is not exhibition football, teams are going about themselves in the way that they best believe can make them successful or competitive at the least. It goes without saying Dublin are a fearsome side, but with the advantages they have in terms of resources -financial and playing numbers, local employment, Croke Park being their de facto home ground.
The real death knell about about gaelic football right now is one side which always had superior natural advantages which no other side can come close to matching have managed to get their structures in order and as a result will dominate for time to come.
So those lamenting defensive football can shove it, it's something that's been borne out of bigger problem.
That's nonsense in fairness. Sport the world over can be played competitively and entertainingly, it doesn't have to be dross to be competitive. I hate the way Tyrone play as it's awful to watch but I can understand Carlow or the like playing it but when Tyrone play like that against teams inferior to them then the sport itself is damaged. Earlier in the year the likes of yourself and some others were telling us all that at least the Ulster counties don't roll over and have a defensive plan to stifle the Dubs, well that proved to be the nonsense some of us told you it was.
We've already seen this year that football played properly is still a wonderful spectacle, the best in world sport for my money. Tyrone can compete playing more expansive football, you've some of the best players in Ireland, and if you back yourselves then you'll compete with anyone. You mightn't beat the Dubs too often but you'll never again beat them playing 14 behind the ball so surely it's better to entertain your fans on the journey?
I disagree with you on this. I don't believe Tyrone would beat Dublin playing a more expansive game. I don't think they would have any better an opportunity that playing a defensive approach (If they played the defensive approach right and actually got a touch on Dublin).
Quote from: WT4E on September 07, 2017, 09:07:36 AM
Is the question not where now for the rest? Dublin are so far ahead its getting scary as it shows no sign of slowing down. The way I see it:
Dublin
Mayo
Kerry
Tyrone
The Rest
Something needs to be addressed on structures or financing of teams.
If Dublin beat Mayo out the gate in the final will this have been the worst Football Championship ever played?
I wouldn't say there's much if any basis to say Kerry are currently ahead of Tyrone.
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on September 07, 2017, 12:11:05 PM
Quote from: WT4E on September 07, 2017, 09:07:36 AM
Is the question not where now for the rest? Dublin are so far ahead its getting scary as it shows no sign of slowing down. The way I see it:
Dublin
Mayo
Kerry
Tyrone
The Rest
Something needs to be addressed on structures or financing of teams.
If Dublin beat Mayo out the gate in the final will this have been the worst Football Championship ever played?
I wouldn't say there's much if any basis to say Kerry are currently ahead of Tyrone.
Kerry are the only team Dublin did not beat this year!
Maybe Dublin are not that great. Maybe Tyrone were overrated
Quote from: Zulu on September 07, 2017, 09:47:38 AM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on September 07, 2017, 07:42:49 AM
Quote from: ose 14 on September 07, 2017, 05:43:16 AM
tyrone may have won ulster but i actually think we were better last year. ulster is crap at the minute longford no disrespect beat down and monaghan last year. tyrone will not win another sam under mr conservative. hes the cheaper option at the minute for a team thats going to be rudderless next year on the pitch with all the old heads gone.
As bad as you say Ulster is, it still had 5 of the last 12 in the Championship this season.
There's a big gap between Dublin, Mayo Kerry and Tyrone - the results over the past three years have shown that and it's widened in that time rather than narrowed. And there's a big gap now opening up between Dublin and the rest, to be fair to Mayo they have competed admirably against Dublin and have never feared them but if Dublin go out and win the final with more comfort this time round, it's very worrying for the future of the game.
People who continually moan about defensive systems and style of football really get my back up. The All Ireland is competitive football, it is not exhibition football, teams are going about themselves in the way that they best believe can make them successful or competitive at the least. It goes without saying Dublin are a fearsome side, but with the advantages they have in terms of resources -financial and playing numbers, local employment, Croke Park being their de facto home ground.
The real death knell about about gaelic football right now is one side which always had superior natural advantages which no other side can come close to matching have managed to get their structures in order and as a result will dominate for time to come.
So those lamenting defensive football can shove it, it's something that's been borne out of bigger problem.
That's nonsense in fairness. Sport the world over can be played competitively and entertainingly, it doesn't have to be dross to be competitive. I hate the way Tyrone play as it's awful to watch but I can understand Carlow or the like playing it but when Tyrone play like that against teams inferior to them then the sport itself is damaged. Earlier in the year the likes of yourself and some others were telling us all that at least the Ulster counties don't roll over and have a defensive plan to stifle the Dubs, well that proved to be the nonsense some of us told you it was.
We've already seen this year that football played properly is still a wonderful spectacle, the best in world sport for my money. Tyrone can compete playing more expansive football, you've some of the best players in Ireland, and if you back yourselves then you'll compete with anyone. You mightn't beat the Dubs too often but you'll never again beat them playing 14 behind the ball so surely it's better to entertain your fans on the journey?
You must be completely misunderstanding my point.
Just try and play open football with Dublin at the minute and they will blow you apart. The pace, size and power they have across the pitch is impossible to deal with.
Trying to remain competitive has changed many counties hands when it comes to the style of football they play. I'm sure every county would love to play open attacking football but the gulf is getting so wide that by playing with mass defence they may at least have some chance or some hope.
Defensive football is not ruining the sport, the near on professional attitude of the top counties supported by big resources is what's doing it and nobody can compete with the natural advantages Dublin have here.
Take your head out of the sand.
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on September 07, 2017, 12:21:16 PM
Quote from: Zulu on September 07, 2017, 09:47:38 AM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on September 07, 2017, 07:42:49 AM
Quote from: ose 14 on September 07, 2017, 05:43:16 AM
tyrone may have won ulster but i actually think we were better last year. ulster is crap at the minute longford no disrespect beat down and monaghan last year. tyrone will not win another sam under mr conservative. hes the cheaper option at the minute for a team thats going to be rudderless next year on the pitch with all the old heads gone.
As bad as you say Ulster is, it still had 5 of the last 12 in the Championship this season.
There's a big gap between Dublin, Mayo Kerry and Tyrone - the results over the past three years have shown that and it's widened in that time rather than narrowed. And there's a big gap now opening up between Dublin and the rest, to be fair to Mayo they have competed admirably against Dublin and have never feared them but if Dublin go out and win the final with more comfort this time round, it's very worrying for the future of the game.
People who continually moan about defensive systems and style of football really get my back up. The All Ireland is competitive football, it is not exhibition football, teams are going about themselves in the way that they best believe can make them successful or competitive at the least. It goes without saying Dublin are a fearsome side, but with the advantages they have in terms of resources -financial and playing numbers, local employment, Croke Park being their de facto home ground.
The real death knell about about gaelic football right now is one side which always had superior natural advantages which no other side can come close to matching have managed to get their structures in order and as a result will dominate for time to come.
So those lamenting defensive football can shove it, it's something that's been borne out of bigger problem.
That's nonsense in fairness. Sport the world over can be played competitively and entertainingly, it doesn't have to be dross to be competitive. I hate the way Tyrone play as it's awful to watch but I can understand Carlow or the like playing it but when Tyrone play like that against teams inferior to them then the sport itself is damaged. Earlier in the year the likes of yourself and some others were telling us all that at least the Ulster counties don't roll over and have a defensive plan to stifle the Dubs, well that proved to be the nonsense some of us told you it was.
We've already seen this year that football played properly is still a wonderful spectacle, the best in world sport for my money. Tyrone can compete playing more expansive football, you've some of the best players in Ireland, and if you back yourselves then you'll compete with anyone. You mightn't beat the Dubs too often but you'll never again beat them playing 14 behind the ball so surely it's better to entertain your fans on the journey?
You must be completely misunderstanding my point.
Just try and play open football with Dublin at the minute and they will blow you apart. The pace, size and power they have across the pitch is impossible to deal with.
Trying to remain competitive has changed many counties hands when it comes to the style of football they play. I'm sure every county would love to play open attacking football but the gulf is getting so wide that by playing with mass defence they may at least have some chance or some hope.
Defensive football is not ruining the sport, the near on professional attitude of the top counties supported by big resources is what's doing it and nobody can compete with the natural advantages Dublin have here.
Take your head out of the sand.
Correct. Even the wonderful purists from Kerry put in place a "negative" and hard hitting defensive system to defeat Dublin in the league final. Wing backs playing in the forwards and the likes. The game is what it is and everything is biased against defenders (4 step rule not enforced, soft frees given, diving rewarded etc) so the only answer against very good attackers is to try and crowd them out. It's ok against most teams as their skill levels are lower and they'll muck it up themselves but the likes of Tyrone are preparing for the better sides so play the system all the time.
Seanie, did you see that Carew resigned today. Is it Eamon O time?.....
Quote from: From the Bunker on September 07, 2017, 12:16:37 PM
Kerry are the only team Dublin did not beat this year!
They didn't beat Donegal either.
Tyrone can play how they like. Their job is to maximise results. If this is how they see it is best to work within the current rules then so be it. It is not their responsibility to entertain.
It is also important that the game is entertaining. We can't sleep walk into a position where we are explaining to a younger generation that the game is important and they should watch it or play it because its important rather than because its any good.
There are supposed to be custodians of the game. They do have a responsibility to keep it entertaining. They do have a responsibility to the neutral.
And its not a case of ach sure there is nothing that can be done about it or its just a fad that will pass.
Its also not about Tyrone. Tyrone are terrible to watch. Other counties are terrible to watch. Lots of clubs, schools and colleges are terrible to watch.
People complain about the black card but it was the best measure that the powers that be could get through. More aggressive management of the future of the game is needed. And the professional coaching class and supporters of winning sides will be the hardest to convince
Quote from: vallankumous on September 07, 2017, 12:58:23 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on September 07, 2017, 12:16:37 PM
Kerry are the only team Dublin did not beat this year!
They didn't beat Donegal either.
they didn't beat Clare or Fermanagh either
Tyrone are like a high growth stock that just issued a big fuckoff profit warning.
The market had priced in 6 all Irelands over the next 20 years and now it is pricing 1
Momentum is a cigar called Hamlet
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlYMID5qCdE&list=RDQMEObPD5vMB9A&index=1
Galway hurlers have 5 now, Bomber
So have Down
So have Cavan
Quote from: sligoman2 on September 07, 2017, 12:51:10 PM
Seanie, did you see that Carew resigned today. Is it Eamon O time?.....
I saw that. Personally think while Eamon's time will come I am not sure it is yet here. The names like Rory Gallagher, James Horan, Tony McEntee and Pete McGrath interest me more at this moment.
Quote from: magpie seanie on September 07, 2017, 12:37:56 PM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on September 07, 2017, 12:21:16 PM
Quote from: Zulu on September 07, 2017, 09:47:38 AM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on September 07, 2017, 07:42:49 AM
Quote from: ose 14 on September 07, 2017, 05:43:16 AM
tyrone may have won ulster but i actually think we were better last year. ulster is crap at the minute longford no disrespect beat down and monaghan last year. tyrone will not win another sam under mr conservative. hes the cheaper option at the minute for a team thats going to be rudderless next year on the pitch with all the old heads gone.
As bad as you say Ulster is, it still had 5 of the last 12 in the Championship this season.
There's a big gap between Dublin, Mayo Kerry and Tyrone - the results over the past three years have shown that and it's widened in that time rather than narrowed. And there's a big gap now opening up between Dublin and the rest, to be fair to Mayo they have competed admirably against Dublin and have never feared them but if Dublin go out and win the final with more comfort this time round, it's very worrying for the future of the game.
People who continually moan about defensive systems and style of football really get my back up. The All Ireland is competitive football, it is not exhibition football, teams are going about themselves in the way that they best believe can make them successful or competitive at the least. It goes without saying Dublin are a fearsome side, but with the advantages they have in terms of resources -financial and playing numbers, local employment, Croke Park being their de facto home ground.
The real death knell about about gaelic football right now is one side which always had superior natural advantages which no other side can come close to matching have managed to get their structures in order and as a result will dominate for time to come.
So those lamenting defensive football can shove it, it's something that's been borne out of bigger problem.
That's nonsense in fairness. Sport the world over can be played competitively and entertainingly, it doesn't have to be dross to be competitive. I hate the way Tyrone play as it's awful to watch but I can understand Carlow or the like playing it but when Tyrone play like that against teams inferior to them then the sport itself is damaged. Earlier in the year the likes of yourself and some others were telling us all that at least the Ulster counties don't roll over and have a defensive plan to stifle the Dubs, well that proved to be the nonsense some of us told you it was.
We've already seen this year that football played properly is still a wonderful spectacle, the best in world sport for my money. Tyrone can compete playing more expansive football, you've some of the best players in Ireland, and if you back yourselves then you'll compete with anyone. You mightn't beat the Dubs too often but you'll never again beat them playing 14 behind the ball so surely it's better to entertain your fans on the journey?
You must be completely misunderstanding my point.
Just try and play open football with Dublin at the minute and they will blow you apart. The pace, size and power they have across the pitch is impossible to deal with.
Trying to remain competitive has changed many counties hands when it comes to the style of football they play. I'm sure every county would love to play open attacking football but the gulf is getting so wide that by playing with mass defence they may at least have some chance or some hope.
Defensive football is not ruining the sport, the near on professional attitude of the top counties supported by big resources is what's doing it and nobody can compete with the natural advantages Dublin have here.
Take your head out of the sand.
Correct. Even the wonderful purists from Kerry put in place a "negative" and hard hitting defensive system to defeat Dublin in the league final. Wing backs playing in the forwards and the likes. The game is what it is and everything is biased against defenders (4 step rule not enforced, soft frees given, diving rewarded etc) so the only answer against very good attackers is to try and crowd them out. It's ok against most teams as their skill levels are lower and they'll muck it up themselves but the likes of Tyrone are preparing for the better sides so play the system all the time.
Disagree. I never said Tyrone would beat Dublin playing more conventional but it would give them a better chance. Kerry didn't play a very defensive system in the league final and won. Mayo don't play a very defensive system and push Dublin to the limit every time. Good teams, like Tyrone, have a better chance making McMahon, Cooper and McCaffrey do a bit of defending rather than giving Dublin the ball all day and dying by a thousand cuts.
Tyrone are good enough to play more positively and be successful. They won't necessarily win an All Ireland or even beat the top teams but they have a better (or at least as good) chance of doing so playing more conventionally.
We haven't had 6 forwards staying in their positions for over 30 years so we aren't talking about that. However, if anyone still thinks getting 14 behind the ball will win you games against good teams then they don't understand what they are seeing. All teams will start playing the ball around the defensive structure and probe with patience from now on and while some still won't be good enough to win, it won't be just Dublin picking apart defensive teams anymore.
Quote from: Zulu on September 07, 2017, 05:08:45 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on September 07, 2017, 12:37:56 PM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on September 07, 2017, 12:21:16 PM
Quote from: Zulu on September 07, 2017, 09:47:38 AM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on September 07, 2017, 07:42:49 AM
Quote from: ose 14 on September 07, 2017, 05:43:16 AM
tyrone may have won ulster but i actually think we were better last year. ulster is crap at the minute longford no disrespect beat down and monaghan last year. tyrone will not win another sam under mr conservative. hes the cheaper option at the minute for a team thats going to be rudderless next year on the pitch with all the old heads gone.
As bad as you say Ulster is, it still had 5 of the last 12 in the Championship this season.
There's a big gap between Dublin, Mayo Kerry and Tyrone - the results over the past three years have shown that and it's widened in that time rather than narrowed. And there's a big gap now opening up between Dublin and the rest, to be fair to Mayo they have competed admirably against Dublin and have never feared them but if Dublin go out and win the final with more comfort this time round, it's very worrying for the future of the game.
People who continually moan about defensive systems and style of football really get my back up. The All Ireland is competitive football, it is not exhibition football, teams are going about themselves in the way that they best believe can make them successful or competitive at the least. It goes without saying Dublin are a fearsome side, but with the advantages they have in terms of resources -financial and playing numbers, local employment, Croke Park being their de facto home ground.
The real death knell about about gaelic football right now is one side which always had superior natural advantages which no other side can come close to matching have managed to get their structures in order and as a result will dominate for time to come.
So those lamenting defensive football can shove it, it's something that's been borne out of bigger problem.
That's nonsense in fairness. Sport the world over can be played competitively and entertainingly, it doesn't have to be dross to be competitive. I hate the way Tyrone play as it's awful to watch but I can understand Carlow or the like playing it but when Tyrone play like that against teams inferior to them then the sport itself is damaged. Earlier in the year the likes of yourself and some others were telling us all that at least the Ulster counties don't roll over and have a defensive plan to stifle the Dubs, well that proved to be the nonsense some of us told you it was.
We've already seen this year that football played properly is still a wonderful spectacle, the best in world sport for my money. Tyrone can compete playing more expansive football, you've some of the best players in Ireland, and if you back yourselves then you'll compete with anyone. You mightn't beat the Dubs too often but you'll never again beat them playing 14 behind the ball so surely it's better to entertain your fans on the journey?
You must be completely misunderstanding my point.
Just try and play open football with Dublin at the minute and they will blow you apart. The pace, size and power they have across the pitch is impossible to deal with.
Trying to remain competitive has changed many counties hands when it comes to the style of football they play. I'm sure every county would love to play open attacking football but the gulf is getting so wide that by playing with mass defence they may at least have some chance or some hope.
Defensive football is not ruining the sport, the near on professional attitude of the top counties supported by big resources is what's doing it and nobody can compete with the natural advantages Dublin have here.
Take your head out of the sand.
Correct. Even the wonderful purists from Kerry put in place a "negative" and hard hitting defensive system to defeat Dublin in the league final. Wing backs playing in the forwards and the likes. The game is what it is and everything is biased against defenders (4 step rule not enforced, soft frees given, diving rewarded etc) so the only answer against very good attackers is to try and crowd them out. It's ok against most teams as their skill levels are lower and they'll muck it up themselves but the likes of Tyrone are preparing for the better sides so play the system all the time.
Disagree. I never said Tyrone would beat Dublin playing more conventional but it would give them a better chance. Kerry didn't play a very defensive system in the league final and won. Mayo don't play a very defensive system and push Dublin to the limit every time. Good teams, like Tyrone, have a better chance making McMahon, Cooper and McCaffrey do a bit of defending rather than giving Dublin the ball all day and dying by a thousand cuts.
Tyrone are good enough to play more positively and be successful. They won't necessarily win an All Ireland or even beat the top teams but they have a better (or at least as good) chance of doing so playing more conventionally.
We haven't had 6 forwards staying in their positions for over 30 years so we aren't talking about that. However, if anyone still thinks getting 14 behind the ball will win you games against good teams then they don't understand what they are seeing. All teams will start playing the ball around the defensive structure and probe with patience from now on and while some still won't be good enough to win, it won't be just Dublin picking apart defensive teams anymore.
So your criticism is based solely on the Dublin game?
Quote from: magpie seanie on September 07, 2017, 02:13:42 PM
Quote from: sligoman2 on September 07, 2017, 12:51:10 PM
Seanie, did you see that Carew resigned today. Is it Eamon O time?.....
I saw that. Personally think while Eamon's time will come I am not sure it is yet here. The names like Rory Gallagher, James Horan, Tony McEntee and Pete McGrath interest me more at this moment.
Where's Banty in that list?
Quote from: magpie seanie on September 07, 2017, 02:13:42 PM
Quote from: sligoman2 on September 07, 2017, 12:51:10 PM
Seanie, did you see that Carew resigned today. Is it Eamon O time?.....
I saw that. Personally think while Eamon's time will come I am not sure it is yet here. The names like Rory Gallagher, James Horan, Tony McEntee and Pete McGrath interest me more at this moment.
Horan is on the media Gravy train!
Quote from: From the Bunker on September 07, 2017, 07:47:26 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on September 07, 2017, 02:13:42 PM
Quote from: sligoman2 on September 07, 2017, 12:51:10 PM
Seanie, did you see that Carew resigned today. Is it Eamon O time?.....
I saw that. Personally think while Eamon's time will come I am not sure it is yet here. The names like Rory Gallagher, James Horan, Tony McEntee and Pete McGrath interest me more at this moment.
Horan is on the media Gravy train!
There are lots of people in the media, skilled and unskilled personel involved in Club and County back-up teams who are all getting
money out of our games - that is a living
reality that is not likely to change .... and why not James Horan !!!
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on September 07, 2017, 07:13:48 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on September 07, 2017, 02:13:42 PM
Quote from: sligoman2 on September 07, 2017, 12:51:10 PM
Seanie, did you see that Carew resigned today. Is it Eamon O time?.....
I saw that. Personally think while Eamon's time will come I am not sure it is yet here. The names like Rory Gallagher, James Horan, Tony McEntee and Pete McGrath interest me more at this moment.
Where's Banty in that list?
I don't think Banty would be any use for us. We need someone who will bring young players through and put in place a professional setup. I think there are better candidates out there.
I still can't get over the atmosphere at Tyrone games this year, esp in the Ulster semi v Donegal and final v Down.
The atmosphere was dead. It was like sitting down for a show in the Lyric. You could hear the players shout. Tyrone were so orderly and methodical and successful. But no sense of genius like Mulligan or O'Neill or Canavan.
Quote from: ONeill on September 10, 2017, 11:09:45 PM
I still can't get over the atmosphere at Tyrone games this year, esp in the Ulster semi v Donegal and final v Down.
The atmosphere was dead. It was like sitting down for a show in the Lyric. You could hear the players shout. Tyrone were so orderly and methodical and successful. But no sense of genius like Mulligan or O'Neill or Canavan.
Rubbish, the atmosphere was dead because we were hammering teams.
Quote from: redhandefender on September 11, 2017, 10:56:43 AM
Quote from: ONeill on September 10, 2017, 11:09:45 PM
I still can't get over the atmosphere at Tyrone games this year, esp in the Ulster semi v Donegal and final v Down.
The atmosphere was dead. It was like sitting down for a show in the Lyric. You could hear the players shout. Tyrone were so orderly and methodical and successful. But no sense of genius like Mulligan or O'Neill or Canavan.
Rubbish, the atmosphere was dead because we were hammering teams.
The 1st half against Down wasn't a hammering and the atmosphere was dead!
Quote from: yellowcard on September 06, 2017, 11:05:54 PM
Quote from: mcklatchee on September 06, 2017, 09:31:02 PM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on September 06, 2017, 07:25:42 PM
Happy enough for Harte to stay on.
The style of football doesn't bother me as long as its getting the best out of the players available to him, which I think he is. I'd like to see a few defenders given a run next year and see if we can be a little bit more aggressive and on the front foot in what we're doing.
Unfortunately we're really lacking in big talented inside forwards which makes us very predictable. Coney has had his chances as has Niall McKenna, I don't think McNulty has the mobility to be effective in the very big games. Apart from that I don't think there is any other real options. I think Ronan O'Neill lacks the pace to be a top forward and McCurry looks like a player bereft of confidence the past two years, perhaps a year out might do him the world of good.
I'd like to see the squad freshened up in some ways.
We're badly lacking in size now with Justy and Sean Cavanagh stepping away so we'll need to add a few big physical lads back into the mix. How has Conor Clarke being doing with Omagh?
Agree about giving a few defenders a run out. Maybe drop Bradley and bring in a defender. And now that Sean has retired maybe bring in a more defensive minded player for that role
So instead of playing a 1-13-1 formation, simply shut up shop and revert to a 1-14-0 formation. With the added caveat that Cavanaghs replacement is not allowed cross the halfway line.
These would only be short term measures. Longer term surgery is ultimately required. Underage structures need to be examined. Narrowing the pitch at either end like an Aussie oval would cut down the cost of maintaining bits of the playing surface nobody uses. This money could be redirected into underage games and fund cilices to be worn during games to increase focus and reduce pleasure. Players remaining in the attacking half when the opposition has the ball or is thinking of having the ball would have to wear a tighter or second cilice. Also underage players would be banned from kicking the ball forward except were the rules of the game demands it or when an attempt is made to score directly
So where to now?
Probably time for Mickey to call it a day?
Quote from: From the Bunker on September 03, 2018, 10:36:04 PM
So where to now?
Probably time for Mickey to call it a day?
Last two seasons we have reached an All Ireland semi final, and then the final. Each time beaten by a team regarded by many as the best ever en route to completing 4 in a row. Jesus, you Mayo lads must have high expectations of Tyrone if you deem this as failure. It's got the Offaly 1982 formline written all over it.... ;)
Why would he do that after taking his team to within a whisker of his 4th ai? ...Which will certainly be picked up next year?
It wont be, though Tyrone wont beat the Dubs for again with him in charge.
Mickey's time has gone!
Time for new faces and new ideas.
He has hogged this gig for too long.
Quote from: From the Bunker on September 03, 2018, 11:05:51 PM
Mickey's time has gone!
Time for new faces and new ideas.
He has hogged this gig for too long.
Some won't realise how good Harte was with Tyrone until he's gone.
QuoteSome won't realise how good Harte was with Tyrone until he's gone.
+1 ... I wish Armagh would have had Micky during the 2000 - 2005 era.
Quote from: Captain Obvious on September 03, 2018, 11:23:22 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on September 03, 2018, 11:05:51 PM
Mickey's time has gone!
Time for new faces and new ideas.
He has hogged this gig for too long.
Some won't realise how good Harte was with Tyrone until he's gone.
No doubt, but he's had no big weight win in nearly 10 years now. He has consistently kept Tyrone good without making them great.
Quote from: From the Bunker on September 04, 2018, 12:06:54 AM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on September 03, 2018, 11:23:22 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on September 03, 2018, 11:05:51 PM
Mickey's time has gone!
Time for new faces and new ideas.
He has hogged this gig for too long.
Some won't realise how good Harte was with Tyrone until he's gone.
No doubt, but he's had no big weight win in nearly 10 years now. He has consistently kept Tyrone good without making them great.
Doing that has been great and without him they could have became average or poor especially the last 10 years when player quality wise they weren't a patch on their All Ireland winning teams.
Quote from: omaghjoe on September 03, 2018, 10:40:35 PM
Why would he do that after taking his team to within a whisker of his 4th ai? ...Which will certainly be picked up next year?
Within a whisker?? Did i watch the wrong game?
Quote from: From the Bunker on September 04, 2018, 12:06:54 AM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on September 03, 2018, 11:23:22 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on September 03, 2018, 11:05:51 PM
Mickey's time has gone!
Time for new faces and new ideas.
He has hogged this gig for too long.
Some won't realise how good Harte was with Tyrone until he's gone.
No doubt, but he's had no big weight win in nearly 10 years now. He has consistently kept Tyrone good without making them great.
Is that not an achievement in itself?
I think most Tyrone fans would consider making tbe final a successful season.
We actually lost three times this championship lads.
Quote from: Under Lights on September 04, 2018, 08:37:53 AM
We actually lost three times this championship lads.
But only failed to beat 1 team. A team many would describe as the best in a generation.
Forget about getting anywhere near an All-Ireland win in the next two years.
That doesn't mean you won't make a final again, it just means that you can't beat this Dublin team, with this Tyrone team.
So, is it better to bring someone in who can rip the thing up and start again?
I'm not so sure, because I remember what happened in Meath after Sean Boylan left.
Sometimes there can be a perception that if you're just falling short, it's the managers fault.
The alternative hypothesis is that without that manager you wouldn't even reach those heights.
I just can't see Tyrone beating Dublin without massive changes in personnel around the middle third of the field and to be honest, Tyrone football doesn't seem to produce the type of animal you need in there.
That's where you need to go to war with the Dubs.
I think that all this talk of forward play is missing the bigger picture here.
Mayo have shown the way to get at Dublin.
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on September 04, 2018, 08:00:00 AM
Quote from: From the Bunker on September 04, 2018, 12:06:54 AM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on September 03, 2018, 11:23:22 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on September 03, 2018, 11:05:51 PM
Mickey's time has gone!
Time for new faces and new ideas.
He has hogged this gig for too long.
Some won't realise how good Harte was with Tyrone until he's gone.
No doubt, but he's had no big weight win in nearly 10 years now. He has consistently kept Tyrone good without making them great.
Is that not an achievement in itself?
I think most Tyrone fans would consider making tbe final a successful season.
I would say it's been a successful season. Would have liked another Ulster title obviously but we've had a few of those in recent years and at least we put the Monaghan issue right at the end of the year. Would Tyrone have won on Sunday with any other manager and if so, how?
Quote from: Jinxy on September 04, 2018, 08:50:48 AM
Forget about getting anywhere near an All-Ireland win in the next two years.
That doesn't mean you won't make a final again, it just means that you can't beat this Dublin team, with this Tyrone team.
So, is it better to bring someone in who can rip the thing up and start again?
I'm not so sure, because I remember what happened in Meath after Sean Boylan left.
Sometimes there can be a perception that if you're just falling short, it's the managers fault.
The alternative hypothesis is that without that manager you wouldn't even reach those heights.
I just can't see Tyrone beating Dublin without massive changes in personnel around the middle third of the field and to be honest, Tyrone football doesn't seem to produce the type of animal you need in there.
That's where you need to go to war with the Dubs.
I think that all this talk of forward play is missing the bigger picture here.
Mayo have shown the way to get at Dublin.
Jim McGuinness might keep Tyrone competitive longer but this is not really a Tyrone issue
because it applies to all the other counties. The GAA all Ireland football championship is supposed to be a competition. At the moment it is not. It is a procession.
Exactly Seafóidín.
Leinster became a procession years ago, now with the demise of Mayowestros the AI has joined it.
Only the Ulster and Connacht Championships are competitions any more.
Didn't read through the thread but my take after Sunday it's hard to see where Tyrone could improve enough to beat Dublin. Physically their forwards aren't big enough, Dublin are technically brilliant in the tackle but Tyrone never seemed like they'd be able to break more than one tackle or they got to a certain point and no further. Tyrones bench had a shocking impact on the game, maybe just bad games but they were very poor. Biggest thing was efficiency though which everyone could learn from Dublin, Dublin had some bad wides but they had bad wides from good shooting opportunities whereas Tyrone had some shocking wides but they were from awful shooting positions. One thing I will say, Tyrone have alot of very good young players who should improve going forward
Quote from: Rossfan on September 04, 2018, 09:11:45 AM
Exactly Seafóidín.
Leinster became a procession years ago, now with the demise of Mayowestros the AI has joined it.
Only the Ulster and Connacht Championships are competitions any more.
I don't think this is acceptable. The Dubs could win 7 in a row.
Attendances have been falling since 2001
The game is in a state of crisis.
Only the GAA is in a position to address it coherently.
The first step is to acknowledge there is a crisis
Quote from: tippabu on September 04, 2018, 09:15:13 AM
Didn't read through the thread but my take after Sunday it's hard to see where Tyrone could improve enough to beat Dublin. Physically their forwards aren't big enough, Dublin are technically brilliant in the tackle but Tyrone never seemed like they'd be able to break more than one tackle or they got to a certain point and no further. Tyrones bench had a shocking impact on the game, maybe just bad games but they were very poor. Biggest thing was efficiency though which everyone could learn from Dublin, Dublin had some bad wides but they had bad wides from good shooting opportunities whereas Tyrone had some shocking wides but they were from awful shooting positions. One thing I will say, Tyrone have alot of very good young players who should improve going forward
I think you have answered your own question there. For me this is the biggest area Tyrone need to improve to close the gap on Dublin. Dublin arent kicking half a dozen wonder scores to beat you every game, they are just brilliant at working really good scoring opportunities and ruthless in taking those.
Quote from: Rossfan on September 04, 2018, 09:11:45 AM
Exactly Seafóidín.
Leinster became a procession years ago, now with the demise of Mayowestros the AI has joined it.
Only the Ulster and Connacht Championships are competitions any more.
Will agree to a certain extent 're connacht, it's a 2 match championship. Ulster is head and shoulders above the rest in terms of competitiveness as proved this year. Obviously Leinster and munster there is no competition
Quote from: From the Bunker on September 04, 2018, 12:06:54 AM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on September 03, 2018, 11:23:22 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on September 03, 2018, 11:05:51 PM
Mickey's time has gone!
Time for new faces and new ideas.
He has hogged this gig for too long.
Some won't realise how good Harte was with Tyrone until he's gone.
No doubt, but he's had no big weight win in nearly 10 years now. He has consistently kept Tyrone good without making them great.
I'm no fan of Harte on his personal views and arguable abuse of position but I think he has kept Tyrone performing at a level well above the quality of player available to him. Loads of managers do exceptional jobs without winning all Ireland. Does anyone really think Another mgr could have won an all Ireland in the last 10 yrs with the panel....
Tyrone should be grateful to Harte they haven't ended up like Derry, down or Armagh.....
Quote from: omaghjoe on September 03, 2018, 10:40:35 PM
Why would he do that after taking his team to within a whisker of his 4th ai? ...Which will certainly be picked up next year?
It's was like a cat playing with a dying mouse after the 17th minute
I read the Harte quotes in the Indo
https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/its-absolutely-childish-mickey-harte-blasts-pundits-for-living-in-the-past-and-looking-for-sound-bites-37280142.html
"I just think it's a tired sound bite, it really is. This thing called marquee forwards, it's something of the past. It's not about being a marquee forward, it's about the number of quality finishers wherever they come from on the field," Harte said.
"The marquee has maybe strength, but it's also going to be a great weakness. If you have a marquee forward and he's double-teamed and stuffed out of the game, what do the rest of the people do?
"Do they say 'oh, our marquee forwards are not getting seven or eight points' when we are beaten? I think you need a spread of scorers in the modern game and people capable of taking them.
"And the fact a forward is only described as marquee because he gets six, seven or eight points in a match, to me is absolutely childish. We have plenty of marquee forwards, quality players who can do lots of things with the ball."
And everyone is talking about the wides and the shot selection.
He doesn't have the forwards at the minute
BTW this is what a marquee forward looks like :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3G1bwD0ao0
Quote from: seafoid on September 04, 2018, 02:03:17 PM
I read the Harte quotes in the Indo
https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/its-absolutely-childish-mickey-harte-blasts-pundits-for-living-in-the-past-and-looking-for-sound-bites-37280142.html
"I just think it's a tired sound bite, it really is. This thing called marquee forwards, it's something of the past. It's not about being a marquee forward, it's about the number of quality finishers wherever they come from on the field," Harte said.
"The marquee has maybe strength, but it's also going to be a great weakness. If you have a marquee forward and he's double-teamed and stuffed out of the game, what do the rest of the people do?
"Do they say 'oh, our marquee forwards are not getting seven or eight points' when we are beaten? I think you need a spread of scorers in the modern game and people capable of taking them.
"And the fact a forward is only described as marquee because he gets six, seven or eight points in a match, to me is absolutely childish. We have plenty of marquee forwards, quality players who can do lots of things with the ball."
And everyone is talking about the wides and the shot selection.
He doesn't have the forwards at the minute
BTW this is what a marquee forward looks like :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3G1bwD0ao0
Not a lot wrong with what he said there.
The day of Dublin leaving their defence that exposed is long gone.
(http://i63.tinypic.com/akdgft.png)
For the last 3-4 years Tyrone have had the same problem, poor shooting and decision making. I for the life of me cant figure out why this isnt being addressed at management level, if it is then is simply hasn't worked. Stephen O'Neill was one of the best forwards about, is it that he is not allowed to teach them his way?
In addition they need to sort out Morgans mental strength, he is a solid keeper but when he makes 1 mistake he is guaranteed to make a few more right after it. He just needs to shake it off and reset after the 1st mistake.
For some reason Mickey seems to favour the more athletic type of player rather than someone with natural skill. He has to find a few more natural forwards in order to win the big games. Having a fit team of 15 is grand and will win you most games but there is no point in having fit players that constantly kick wides or drop the ball short.
Hopefully Lee Brennan goes next year injury free as he will get better with more game time.
But I have an awful feeling we will be talking about shooting and decision making next year again as I think Micky is too stubborn to change.
Quote from: Orchard park on September 04, 2018, 09:37:07 AM
Quote from: From the Bunker on September 04, 2018, 12:06:54 AM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on September 03, 2018, 11:23:22 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on September 03, 2018, 11:05:51 PM
Mickey's time has gone!
Time for new faces and new ideas.
He has hogged this gig for too long.
Some won't realise how good Harte was with Tyrone until he's gone.
No doubt, but he's had no big weight win in nearly 10 years now. He has consistently kept Tyrone good without making them great.
I'm no fan of Harte on his personal views and arguable abuse of position but I think he has kept Tyrone performing at a level well above the quality of player available to him. Loads of managers do exceptional jobs without winning all Ireland. Does anyone really think Another mgr could have won an all Ireland in the last 10 yrs with the panel....
Tyrone should be grateful to Harte they haven't ended up like Derry, down or Armagh.....
None of those counties have had the same underage talent or success as Tyrone. However good Mickey is, he has been fortunate too in that he has had a pretty steady stream of good young footballers onto his panel.
Mickey is clearly fantastic at getting players to buy into what he is doing. They are physically well prepared and pull together. He made a fundamental error though in trying to implement something based on Donegal of the McGuinness era when this new team came through. There has never been the slightest bit of evidence that this approach has helped Tyrone beat anybody they couldn't beat anybody with a more attacking style, and it certainly hasn't helped them against sides who are better than them, ie the Dubs. If the system did indeed suit them, players wouldn't constantly make the wrong decisions when in possession. Having spent a few years trying to implement it, it can also only be confusing for players to have to try and change drastically as they did before this final. That will have an impact on decision making, as will hearing your manager talking about players scoring dishonest goals by leaving your man and taking a chance and going for something off the cuff.
Where now for Tyrone? Settle on a system and stick with it. Leave the likes of Bradley and Brennan up and have support in place for them. Put more faith in defenders to defend. The danger is that reaching the final this year will be seen as proof that the approach of the last few years is working. In reality it was an extremely handy run to the final. A re-think is still required. Dublin is always going to be massive ask for this Tyrone side, but they are capable of better than being beaten before half-time.
Quote from: tyrone08 on September 04, 2018, 04:12:13 PM
For the last 3-4 years Tyrone have had the same problem, poor shooting and decision making. I for the life of me cant figure out why this isnt being addressed at management level, if it is then is simply hasn't worked. Stephen O'Neill was one of the best forwards about, is it that he is not allowed to teach them his way?
In addition they need to sort out Morgans mental strength, he is a solid keeper but when he makes 1 mistake he is guaranteed to make a few more right after it. He just needs to shake it off and reset after the 1st mistake.
For some reason Mickey seems to favour the more athletic type of player rather than someone with natural skill. He has to find a few more natural forwards in order to win the big games. Having a fit team of 15 is grand and will win you most games but there is no point in having fit players that constantly kick wides or drop the ball short.
Hopefully Lee Brennan goes next year injury free as he will get better with more game time.
But I have an awful feeling we will be talking about shooting and decision making next year again as I think Micky is too stubborn to change.
Stephen O'Neill shot a lot of times from outside the "scoring zone" and landed them. Tyrone were shooting from these areas on Sunday and the players- McShane, McGeary, Hampsey etc weren't of the calibre of O'Neill from landing this precentage shots.
Quote from: omaghjoe on September 03, 2018, 10:40:35 PM
Why would he do that after taking his team to within a whisker of his 4th ai? ...Which will certainly be picked up next year?
There must be some big cats about Tyrone.
Quote from: Under Lights on September 04, 2018, 04:46:00 PM
Quote from: tyrone08 on September 04, 2018, 04:12:13 PM
For the last 3-4 years Tyrone have had the same problem, poor shooting and decision making. I for the life of me cant figure out why this isnt being addressed at management level, if it is then is simply hasn't worked. Stephen O'Neill was one of the best forwards about, is it that he is not allowed to teach them his way?
In addition they need to sort out Morgans mental strength, he is a solid keeper but when he makes 1 mistake he is guaranteed to make a few more right after it. He just needs to shake it off and reset after the 1st mistake.
For some reason Mickey seems to favour the more athletic type of player rather than someone with natural skill. He has to find a few more natural forwards in order to win the big games. Having a fit team of 15 is grand and will win you most games but there is no point in having fit players that constantly kick wides or drop the ball short.
Hopefully Lee Brennan goes next year injury free as he will get better with more game time.
But I have an awful feeling we will be talking about shooting and decision making next year again as I think Micky is too stubborn to change.
Stephen O'Neill shot a lot of times from outside the "scoring zone" and landed them. Tyrone were shooting from these areas on Sunday and the players- McShane, McGeary, Hampsey etc weren't of the calibre of O'Neill from landing this precentage shots.
I've a feeling Stevie might have been coaching them to back themselves in taking on points from long distances and acute angles, guided by the experience that he usually landed those shots.
The thing is, while we don't really have forwards like Stevie and Dooher who can reliably land those ridiculous points, the Dubs never do this either. So I feel the Achilles heel of Tyrone not having "marquee forwards" is overwrought. McCaffrey is lightning quick and Kilkenny marshalls play from out on the 45, but the Dubs aren't relying on marquee forwards either. We do have forwards who are quick and fit and work hard and can kick good scores, and that's more than enough of you can reliably work your way forward. If Tyrone had the patience and discipline to work into the scoring area rather than trying to hit attacks at blistering pace (either when they set up to attack, or on the counter, where they tear teams apart on pace but don't do the "pass around the screen" thing like Dublin or Monaghan if it stalls), then they could find themselves right back in contention.
For me it was a heartening performance from Tyrone, as it at least showed we have the talent and personnel to take it to the Dubs if they can get the strategy and discipline polished and keep their head up and calm.
Marquee forward; wait see the lad coming of Dublins minor team last year, now he the calibre of forward Dublin can produce@l!
Amalgamation with Fermanagh, I think.
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on September 04, 2018, 09:45:15 PM
Marquee forward; wait see the lad coming of Dublins minor team last year, now he the calibre of forward Dublin can produce@l!
Wait you see the minor lad we have coming through.
Think of derrys worst nightmare, well he's coming again
Quote from: redzone on September 04, 2018, 10:56:35 PM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on September 04, 2018, 09:45:15 PM
Marquee forward; wait see the lad coming of Dublins minor team last year, now he the calibre of forward Dublin can produce@l!
Wait you see the minor lad we have coming through.
Think of derrys worst nightmare, well he's coming again
Wait to Peter harte has a son with canavan DNA...
Quote from: RedHand88 on September 04, 2018, 10:59:11 PM
Quote from: redzone on September 04, 2018, 10:56:35 PM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on September 04, 2018, 09:45:15 PM
Marquee forward; wait see the lad coming of Dublins minor team last year, now he the calibre of forward Dublin can produce@l!
Wait you see the minor lad we have coming through.
Think of derrys worst nightmare, well he's coming again
Wait to Peter harte has a son with canavan DNA...
He'll put a halt to the 23 in a row!