Ryanair set for £8 flights to US

[muppet]

Simon Calder is a man I'd trust. says Ryanair have an obsession with safety here (in passing ) ...


http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/simon-calder/simon-calders-holiday-helpdesk-how-reliable-is-mexican-airline-interjet-8565923.html


Ryanair fly over 500,000 flights per year btw.

"Simon Calder's Holiday Helpdesk"!

I published reports from the Air Accident Investigation Unit and you give me "Simon Calder's Holiday Helpdesk".

[StephenC]

Now I could be wrong, but I'm getting a feeling that Muppet doesn't much like Ryanair. 

[muppet]

Now I could be wrong, but I'm getting a feeling that Muppet doesn't much like Ryanair. 

With deductive powers and mental acuity such as like that, I am guessing you are the regulator.

[bcarrier]

I gave you the context of 500000 flights a year and the opinion of one of Gbs senior travel writers and man regularly wheeled out on bbc on occasions such as this.  If you don't want be believe the Irish regulator it is another different opinion. I only came across it because I was checking out interjet.
Anyway we are unlikely to agree about the merits of Ryanair as a carrier so I'll park it there.

[muppet]

I gave you the context of 500000 flights a year and the opinion of one of Gbs senior travel writers and man regularly wheeled out on bbc on occasions such as this.  If you don't want be believe the Irish regulator it is another different opinion. I only came across it because I was checking out interjet.
Anyway we are unlikely to agree about the merits of Ryanair as a carrier so I'll park it there.

I made you an offer and you ignored it. Fair enough.

But spare me the travel writer bullshit artist. He writes about holiday destinations. John Goss was an Air Safety Offier which normally reports directly to the CX or equivalent on safety matters.

Calder wrote that Ryanair was 'obsessed' with safety. No airline is obsessed with safety. If they were they wouldn't fly. There is always a risk in flying but it is about the management of acceptable levels of risk. If Ryanair was 'obsessed' they wouldn't be arguing that the absolute legal minimum fuel load is equal to their policy. They would put a margin on it, like other airlines.

[heffo]

I gave you the context of 500000 flights a year and the opinion of one of Gbs senior travel writers and man regularly wheeled out on bbc on occasions such as this.  If you don't want be believe the Irish regulator it is another different opinion. I only came across it because I was checking out interjet.
Anyway we are unlikely to agree about the merits of Ryanair as a carrier so I'll park it there.

If Ryanair was 'obsessed' they wouldn't be arguing that the absolute legal minimum fuel load is equal to their policy. They would put a margin on it, like other airlines.

What is the story with their fuel policy? O'Leary claims they allow for an extra hour or two of flying and their pilots have the discresion to add more if they feel they need it?

[muppet]

I gave you the context of 500000 flights a year and the opinion of one of Gbs senior travel writers and man regularly wheeled out on bbc on occasions such as this.  If you don't want be believe the Irish regulator it is another different opinion. I only came across it because I was checking out interjet.
Anyway we are unlikely to agree about the merits of Ryanair as a carrier so I'll park it there.

If Ryanair was 'obsessed' they wouldn't be arguing that the absolute legal minimum fuel load is equal to their policy. They would put a margin on it, like other airlines.

What is the story with their fuel policy? O'Leary claims they allow for an extra hour or two of flying and their pilots have the discresion to add more if they feel they need it?

You fly from A to B. O'Leary says they have enough fuel to fly from A to B plus say an hour. To the uninformed that sounds like a lot. The problem is every time you hear a minor story of an event at any given airport (like this one at Dublin this week: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/united-airlines-washington-bound-plane-2165983) the airport is likely to close for a while. If you are on your flight from A to Dublin, you now need that hours fuel or you are in serious trouble. Of that hour you will use half an hour to get to say Belfast or Shannon. You are now left with 30 minutes. Any further delay anywhere along the line and by law you must declare a 'mayday'. Stress levels will be through the roof. If, as the Dispatches programme outlined, there are other aircraft in the same boat at the same time (3 Ryanair and 1 LanChile in the Dispatches case), they all declare maydays. This will mean you have fuel for a maximum of two attempts left to land. If (I know there are a lot of ifs but these things happen) there is any weather issues you will really test the moral fibre of the Air Traffic Controllers and the Pilots involved.

The regulations deal with this by given a formula to calculate the minimum fuel:

It is the sum of the following -
Taxi fuel (gate to runway outbound)
Trip fuel (to fly from takeoff at A to landing at B)
Contingency (usually 5% of trip fuel - if a flight is 60 minutes this means 3 minutes extra)
Alternate fuel (to fly from B to a designated alternate C - Shannon in my example above)
Reserve (30 minutes)
Extra (This is what the row is about)

Some airlines add a minimum extra. The regulations define it as whatever the Captain decides is needed considering all factors including weather, technical issues etc. Ryanair policy is to take no extra and they produce a league table of pilots from the 'best' to the 'worst' at taking extra fuel. Ryanair say this is motivational, the pilots say it is intimidation and that some pilots will not take extra even if they know they need it.

[heffo]

I gave you the context of 500000 flights a year and the opinion of one of Gbs senior travel writers and man regularly wheeled out on bbc on occasions such as this.  If you don't want be believe the Irish regulator it is another different opinion. I only came across it because I was checking out interjet.
Anyway we are unlikely to agree about the merits of Ryanair as a carrier so I'll park it there.

If Ryanair was 'obsessed' they wouldn't be arguing that the absolute legal minimum fuel load is equal to their policy. They would put a margin on it, like other airlines.

What is the story with their fuel policy? O'Leary claims they allow for an extra hour or two of flying and their pilots have the discresion to add more if they feel they need it?

You fly from A to B. O'Leary says they have enough fuel to fly from A to B plus say an hour. To the uninformed that sounds like a lot. The problem is every time you hear a minor story of an event at any given airport (like this one at Dublin this week: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/united-airlines-washington-bound-plane-2165983) the airport is likely to close for a while. If you are on your flight from A to Dublin, you now need that hours fuel or you are in serious trouble. Of that hour you will use half an hour to get to say Belfast or Shannon. You are now left with 30 minutes. Any further delay anywhere along the line and by law you must declare a 'mayday'. Stress levels will be through the roof. If, as the Dispatches programme outlined, there are other aircraft in the same boat at the same time (3 Ryanair and 1 LanChile in the Dispatches case), they all declare maydays. This will mean you have fuel for a maximum of two attempts left to land. If (I know there are a lot of ifs but these things happen) there is any weather issues you will really test the moral fibre of the Air Traffic Controllers and the Pilots involved.

The regulations deal with this by given a formula to calculate the minimum fuel:

It is the sum of the following -
Taxi fuel (gate to runway outbound)
Trip fuel (to fly from takeoff at A to landing at B)
Contingency (usually 5% of trip fuel - if a flight is 60 minutes this means 3 minutes extra)
Alternate fuel (to fly from B to a designated alternate C - Shannon in my example above)
Reserve (30 minutes)
Extra (This is what the row is about)

Some airlines add a minimum extra. The regulations define it as whatever the Captain decides is needed considering all factors including weather, technical issues etc. Ryanair policy is to take no extra and they produce a league table of pilots from the 'best' to the 'worst' at taking extra fuel. Ryanair say this is motivational, the pilots say it is intimidation and that some pilots will not take extra even if they know they need it.

How would that compare to say Aer Lingus/BA/Air France in terms of their fuel policy?

[brokencrossbar1]

I know of a story of a flight that was flying from Lanzarote to Dublin.  It hit very heavy turbulence and headwinds, it had to make an emergency refuelling stop-off in in Cardiff as the plane didn't have enough fuel to make it as far as Dublin.  It was scary stuff but it wasn't Ryanair but a different low cost airline.  This may be something that Muppet could advise about if it is a regular occurrence, my father in law was on the flight and coincidentally I happened to know the pilot as well

[Croí na hÉireann]

I gave you the context of 500000 flights a year and the opinion of one of Gbs senior travel writers and man regularly wheeled out on bbc on occasions such as this.  If you don't want be believe the Irish regulator it is another different opinion. I only came across it because I was checking out interjet.
Anyway we are unlikely to agree about the merits of Ryanair as a carrier so I'll park it there.

If Ryanair was 'obsessed' they wouldn't be arguing that the absolute legal minimum fuel load is equal to their policy. They would put a margin on it, like other airlines.

What is the story with their fuel policy? O'Leary claims they allow for an extra hour or two of flying and their pilots have the discresion to add more if they feel they need it?

You fly from A to B. O'Leary says they have enough fuel to fly from A to B plus say an hour. To the uninformed that sounds like a lot. The problem is every time you hear a minor story of an event at any given airport (like this one at Dublin this week: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/united-airlines-washington-bound-plane-2165983) the airport is likely to close for a while. If you are on your flight from A to Dublin, you now need that hours fuel or you are in serious trouble. Of that hour you will use half an hour to get to say Belfast or Shannon. You are now left with 30 minutes. Any further delay anywhere along the line and by law you must declare a 'mayday'. Stress levels will be through the roof. If, as the Dispatches programme outlined, there are other aircraft in the same boat at the same time (3 Ryanair and 1 LanChile in the Dispatches case), they all declare maydays. This will mean you have fuel for a maximum of two attempts left to land. If (I know there are a lot of ifs but these things happen) there is any weather issues you will really test the moral fibre of the Air Traffic Controllers and the Pilots involved.

The regulations deal with this by given a formula to calculate the minimum fuel:

It is the sum of the following -
Taxi fuel (gate to runway outbound)
Trip fuel (to fly from takeoff at A to landing at B)
Contingency (usually 5% of trip fuel - if a flight is 60 minutes this means 3 minutes extra)
Alternate fuel (to fly from B to a designated alternate C - Shannon in my example above)
Reserve (30 minutes)
Extra (This is what the row is about)

Some airlines add a minimum extra. The regulations define it as whatever the Captain decides is needed considering all factors including weather, technical issues etc. Ryanair policy is to take no extra and they produce a league table of pilots from the 'best' to the 'worst' at taking extra fuel. Ryanair say this is motivational, the pilots say it is intimidation and that some pilots will not take extra even if they know they need it.

Insightful. I take it there is no financial incentive to be at the top of this league table and it's just used as a dressing down for pilots at the bottom?

[muppet]

How would that compare to say Aer Lingus/BA/Air France in terms of their fuel policy?

The same legal minimum would apply. A company extra may be added (Aer Lingus used to add about 15 minutes - don't know about the others) and then the Captain can take whatever he feels is needed on top.

[muppet]

I know of a story of a flight that was flying from Lanzarote to Dublin.  It hit very heavy turbulence and headwinds, it had to make an emergency refuelling stop-off in in Cardiff as the plane didn't have enough fuel to make it as far as Dublin.  It was scary stuff but it wasn't Ryanair but a different low cost airline.  This may be something that Muppet could advise about if it is a regular occurrence, my father in law was on the flight and coincidentally I happened to know the pilot as well

Lanzarote often has another issue. You mention headwinds, if the wind there is from the Northeast, which it often is there is a limit to the weight they can get off the runway due to local terrain. If the flight is full then that may reduce the extra fuel that could be taken. Some airlines stop en route for fuel when than happens although I am surprised to see you mention Cardiff. Were they flying to an Irish airport?

[brokencrossbar1]

I know of a story of a flight that was flying from Lanzarote to Dublin.  It hit very heavy turbulence and headwinds, it had to make an emergency refuelling stop-off in in Cardiff as the plane didn't have enough fuel to make it as far as Dublin.  It was scary stuff but it wasn't Ryanair but a different low cost airline.  This may be something that Muppet could advise about if it is a regular occurrence, my father in law was on the flight and coincidentally I happened to know the pilot as well

Lanzarote often has another issue. You mention headwinds, if the wind there is from the Northeast, which it often is there is a limit to the weight they can get off the runway due to local terrain. If the flight is full then that may reduce the extra fuel that could be taken. Some airlines stop en route for fuel when than happens although I am surprised to see you mention Cardiff. Were they flying to an Irish airport?

They were flying into Dublin, but the Captain was a bit of a bluffer so good only knows where he was flying for, may have ended up in a field around Malahide for all he knew

[muppet]

Insightful. I take it there is no financial incentive to be at the top of this league table and it's just used as a dressing down for pilots at the bottom?

I don't think so and I think it would be problematic if they did. It could be argued that they would be overtly discouraging people taking fuel by rewarding those who don't.

One of the issues is that every flying day is different. A crew could fly to Paris 20 days in a month and reasonably decide that there was no need for extra fuel on each day. Then on the 21th day, thunderstorms, runway equipment downgraded or whatever might persuade a Captain he needs some extra. It is not a problem in most airlines. Ryanair says it is not a problem with them either. Some of their pilots disagree. This is one of the main issues discussed on the Dispatches .

The 2nd issue is the Cockpit Voice Recorder (Black Box in media land - even though it is bright orange). A number of serious incidents have occurred where investigators found the CVR was not 'pulled' or secured for analysis. This is because the next flight departed and it was recorded over. Ryanair insists this is the pilots' fault. The pilots say they couldn't save it as they had to go on the next flight. In my opinion Ryanair's argument is weak here. They blame the pilot for not securing the CVR, as per the Ryanair Operations Manual, but everyone knows you don't delay a Ryanair flight. The culprit here really in my opinion is the IAA who should issue a serious sanction, but won't.

[muppet]

I know of a story of a flight that was flying from Lanzarote to Dublin.  It hit very heavy turbulence and headwinds, it had to make an emergency refuelling stop-off in in Cardiff as the plane didn't have enough fuel to make it as far as Dublin.  It was scary stuff but it wasn't Ryanair but a different low cost airline.  This may be something that Muppet could advise about if it is a regular occurrence, my father in law was on the flight and coincidentally I happened to know the pilot as well

Lanzarote often has another issue. You mention headwinds, if the wind there is from the Northeast, which it often is there is a limit to the weight they can get off the runway due to local terrain. If the flight is full then that may reduce the extra fuel that could be taken. Some airlines stop en route for fuel when than happens although I am surprised to see you mention Cardiff. Were they flying to an Irish airport?

They were flying into Dublin, but the Captain was a bit of a bluffer so good only knows where he was flying for, may have ended up in a field around Malahide for all he knew

Must have been a Cross man so!