Death of Brian Keenan

[J70]

Well I have not espoused that position anywhere. What I have said was that, from where I stand, the position of some on this board is that no particular person could be associated with the worst atrocities i.e. any evidence suggesting such was always propaganda.

I tend to avoid these threads anyway because, like many from outside the six counties I would suspect, you get tired of each side blaming the other and taking little responsibility for their own community's contribution to what happened in Northern Ireland.

That is quite a generalisation. I fear of dragging the thread to a new low so I will be short. The 26 counties played their part as did the Brits and for you to limit it to "each side" is very disheartening.

I agree that there are some who Will never have a bad word said about Republicans even though they did some terrible things. The reverse is true too that for some no matter what the IRA or an IRA volunteer do they will always be the one who murdered Innocent people and will always be bad.

I was talking about the GAA board members. I don't think we have too many Brits. But yes, maybe I was generalizing a bit too much, so that should read "some on each side".

[Donagh]

I was talking about the GAA board members. I don't think we have too many Brits. But yes, maybe I was generalizing a bit too much, so that should read "some on each side".

You've a lot of talk there about these'uns and them'uns J70, so perhaps it's time you told us exactly who it is you are talking about and where all of these threads are? Personally I don't think I have even seen a thread on here concerning the IRA members where your concerns have not been raised though I note you are happy to skip over atrocities committed by certain other sides during long conflicts.

[J70]

I was talking about the GAA board members. I don't think we have too many Brits. But yes, maybe I was generalizing a bit too much, so that should read "some on each side".

You've a lot of talk there about these'uns and them'uns J70, so perhaps it's time you told us exactly who it is you are talking about and where all of these threads are? Personally I don't think I have even seen a thread on here concerning the IRA members where your concerns have not been raised though I note you are happy to skip over atrocities committed by certain other sides during long conflicts.

You mustn't look at too many of those threads then so if you think I contribute to them to any serious degree, at least more recently.

And if you really want to go down the road of digging out old threads, then please outline these atrocities that I have apparently skipped over. I think it is a given that the vast majority, if not all of the people on this board, at least from the nationalist side, abhorr the loyalist/British atrocities.

We all have our impressions of other board members, particularly those of longer standing. I have got involved in threads on the north in the past, and I have questioned the bias towards the republican interpretation of events that seems, to me, to exist on this board (which is understandable, given the membership profile), and some members have expressed their disagreement/disgust with my contributions. Beyond that, I have little to contribute to these discussions, so I stay out of them. If my impressions are mistaken, then feel free to correct me.

[MW]

An alternative view of this "Man of Peace":
www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/obituaries/article3985132.ece

Of course, I hardly expect unanimous endorsement on this forum of such obviously Brit propaganda such as the Times of London, never mind someone like Sean O'Callaghan, who has clearly never, ever uttered a word of truth in his life (even in his sleep); nonetheless, I found this particular entry instructive:  

"He may have seen himself as a working-class revolutionary, but he was simultaneously a sectarian bigot. "Keenan believed that the only way, in his words, to put the nonsense out of the Prods was to just hit back much harder and more savagely than them," recalls the IRA informer Sean O'Callaghan. It was Keenan who recommended to Seamus Twomey, then the Provisionals' "chief of staff", that the UVF's random anti-Catholic assassinations should be met with reciprocal acts. The result was the IRA's attack in Kingsmill, South Armagh, in January 1976, in which ten Protestants were murdered in a machinegun attack"

Firstly I wouldn't lend much credence to O'Callaghan's thoughts.  I read his autobiography and many of his articles and his convoluted explanations of his (self-acknowledged) lies doesn't stack up for me.

As for Keenan I would have thought that his involvement with the Balcombe Street gang would have lowered his estimation in the eyes of the on-line republicans here?

Especially given their propensity for striking at purely civilian targets.

/Jim.

Indeed. One is left to wonder, were they acting on 'nationalist' impluses (murdering those people because of their nationality, ie because they were British) or 'socialist/republican' ones (murdering them because of their perceived class, i.e. because they were for example eating in an upmarket restuarant).

Personally, I see no difference in tactics from the 7/7 and 21/7 bombers, other than that the Islamist terrorists were to take their own lives too...

[MW]

Whenever a republican dies or is discussed on this site, no account of his or her terrorist actions or their motivations is ever given credence - its always hearsay or the words of someone with no credibility or with ulterior motives. You'd almost swear sometimes that the IRA committed no terrorist acts at all or that the twisted bastards who murdered those ten Protestant workers or the likes of Patsy Gillespie were rogue elements who didn't represent republicanism. Sure, the likes of Martin McGuinness and Brian Keenan were important men in the IRA, but no one can ever prove that they have blood on their hands seems to be the logic, at least to me anyway.

The sentiments of that post are oft repeated by British Army/UDR /Loyalist ideologues like CC O Brien
When a poster here or anywhere wants to have a pop against a republican and uses a quote from O'Callaghan to prove the connection with Keenan to a mass murder then belief and credibility are to the fore.
I don't have any doubt Keenan was a republican in a position of command and involved in the IRA along with a few thousand others.

I'm pretty sure Ed Moloney referred to Keenan approving the Kingsmills massacre in his 'Secret History of the IRA'. I don't of course know how accurate this is.

[MW]

The usual position of British Army establishment ideologues is to associate everybody in the Republican movement with the worst atrocities and in the total absence of proof.

The leadership and rank and file of the the republican movement's political side did a pretty good job of publicly associating itself with the atrocities of the Balcombe Street gang, within fairly recent memory, did it not?

[Rav67]

Think Gerry called them "our Mandelas" or something.  Dont know an awful lot about the Balcombe gang but I watched an RTE documentary on them before and they seemed very ruthless and deliberately targeted civilians quite regularly.

[MW]

I am not a Nationalist. I have no regard for the tricolour or the Anthem or Patriotism. I am neither proud nor ashamed to be Irish. I am a Republican. I believe in the peoples right to a republic.

Surely that's far too simplistic? I'd rather live in Denmark, for example, under its political system than a lot of republics out there.

Parliamentary republics where the head of state is a figurehead would, I would argue, for example, have much more in common with other parliamentary democracies with a figurehead head of state who is a monarch than with presidential republics.

[Main Street]

I'm pretty sure Ed Moloney referred to Keenan approving the Kingsmills massacre in his 'Secret History of the IRA'. I don't of course know how accurate this is.

But was he using O'Callaghan as a source

There are afaik only 2 sources propagating Keenans involvement.
1. O'Callaghan
2. A Daily Telegraph journalist who said Keenan knew something, book Bandit Country or something.

Either it was approved by him or it wasn't part of his radar at all.

[Zapatista]

I am not a Nationalist. I have no regard for the tricolour or the Anthem or Patriotism. I am neither proud nor ashamed to be Irish. I am a Republican. I believe in the peoples right to a republic.

Surely that's far too simplistic? I'd rather live in Denmark, for example, under its political system than a lot of republics out there.

Parliamentary republics where the head of state is a figurehead would, I would argue, for example, have much more in common with other parliamentary democracies with a figurehead head of state who is a monarch than with presidential republics.

It's very simple that I am not a Nationalist. I would rather live in England or Norway than in the Republic of China. Which country you would rather live in has nothing to do with being a Republican. Your belief in the political system of Republicanism makes you a Republican. If I am on the Moon I can still be a Republican who would rather be in Saudi Arabia than on the moon.


Your comparison is limited to the West and excludes the fundamental differences between a President and a Monarch and instead compares elected Parliments which is a different argument.

[orangeman]

Did Brian Keenan believe that Sinn Fein and or the IRA had achieved all its political objectives in delivering equality to the nationalist / republican people ?