Money is Destroying the Game

[thewobbler]

So it turns out all you want is socialism.

Do you know what happens when you try to distribute everything evenly?

The greedy get a new system to exploit.

[Teo Lurley]

For all the talk of money here - and some of it is quite valid - personally believe that anyone who thinks money is the primary difference between the top-4 counties and the rest, is deliberately looking at the wrong picture in the hope of finding something.

- - -

The reason why Kerry are better at football, as they have been for 40 years, is because they've got better players (not just in terms of talent, but in terms of application too).

The reason why Dublin have been trouncing everyone in Leinster for decade is because they've had demonstratively better players (not just in terms of talent, but in terms of application too).

The reason why Mayo have been dominant for the past 5 years in Mayo is because they've had a golden generation of players, who are all 100% committed to the cause.

The reason why Donegal went from non-entity to genuine contenders is because they employed a manager who stopped looking for excuses, and decided to maximise the talent at his disposal (which was concentrated on improving their application).

- - -

These counties all appear to be better funded, better resourced than competing counties because at present they're successful, and people gravitate towards success. Sponsors are people.

For example, can you imagine how much easier was it for Donegal's county board to approach sponsors in 2011 and 2012 than it was in 2010? Actually I'd harbour a guess that by 2012 they didn't even have to approach sponsors: instead people were approaching them with blank cheques in hand. People want to be associated with success, and sponsors want to believe that its their cash that facilitates the success.

- - -

This won't last forever. In the noughties Armagh and Kildare were two of the biggest cash cows in Irish sport. But the generous people who gave their players and management such a degree of flexibility then, are either gone, or are waiting in the wings until the level of players needed to be successful returns.

Money isn't the only reason some of these teams are having success but it has a major part to play and it's the reason why such a big gap is appearing between them and the rest. It also is putting other counties in huge debt trying to keep up with them, plus it's destroying the game in smaller counties who're getting killed every year.

Kerry - Are always there at the top. Correct but look at what was happening, they hadn't won an All Ireland since 2009, it looked like there was very little talent coming through and many predicted they wouldn't see success in a decade at least. Now they have won an All Ireland, are back in another final and have a huge number of underage talent being developed. Is it a coincidence that their improvements started when they decided to get working on raising finance and pumping in huge money to their teams and structures?

Dublin - Just over a decade ago small counties like Westmeath, Laois and Kildare were winning Leinster titles. Meath were regular winners. What happened? The GAA started giving 1.5 million euro on average per year to Dublin GAA in order for them to sort out their underage structures. This is where the 'demonstratively better players' came from. This is why they've won 9 out of the last 10 Lenster championships, this is why they've won 2 All Irelands.

Mayo - Honestly I am less clear on the amount they have spent on their teams preparation but we know from the financial trouble they got into that it's not a small amount. They're spending far more than other Connacht teams that's for sure. Far more than Galway even. This has a huge part to play in their 5 in a row which could go for a lot longer.

Donegal - Fair enough they got a manager who changed their mindset but I don't think anyone can downplay the impact the financial support they got had on getting them to the top level. You can have all the tactics and systems you want but if you don't have the time to coach your players these tactics and systems then they're useless. Having full access to your players in 5 day training camps fully paid for is a huge help.

This is an amateur sport, it shouldn't be about who can attract more sponsors or it shouldn't be about being only able to compete if you have enough money to pay for professional level training set ups. It needs to change and quickly.

[Teo Lurley]

So it turns out all you want is socialism.

Do you know what happens when you try to distribute everything evenly?

The greedy get a new system to exploit.

The GAA was one of the greatest socialist organisations Worldwide, time to bring it back to that.

[Nihilist]

Mayo - Honestly I am less clear on the amount they have spent on their teams preparation but we know from the financial trouble they got into that it's not a small amount. They're spending far more than other Connacht teams that's for sure. Far more than Galway even. This has a huge part to play in their 5 in a row which could go for a lot longer.

Mayo got into financial trouble because of the costs of the new Stand and lighting employed in McHale Park. Nothing to do with the County team.

Also you say they are spending much more than Galway. Where are your figures for this?

[Teo Lurley]

Mayo - Honestly I am less clear on the amount they have spent on their teams preparation but we know from the financial trouble they got into that it's not a small amount. They're spending far more than other Connacht teams that's for sure. Far more than Galway even. This has a huge part to play in their 5 in a row which could go for a lot longer.

Mayo got into financial trouble because of the costs of the new Stand and lighting employed in McHale Park. Nothing to do with the County team.

Also you say they are spending much more than Galway. Where are your figures for this?

I've already asked you how am I supposed to get the figures? We can all play dumb and pretend that this team isn't spending this amount or that team is spendng more but that's foolng nobody.

[Nihilist]

I've already asked you how am I supposed to get the figures? We can all play dumb and pretend that this team isn't spending this amount or that team is spendng more but that's foolng nobody.

Well if you can't get any figures then stop making a silly claim. Back it up with facts. Then people may begin to listen.

[Teo Lurley]

I've already asked you how am I supposed to get the figures? We can all play dumb and pretend that this team isn't spending this amount or that team is spendng more but that's foolng nobody.

Well if you can't get any figures then stop making a silly claim. Back it up with facts. Then people may begin to listen.

So how am I meant to get the figures? You still haven't answered. Like I said, we can all play dumb and pretend it isn't happening.

Money has a big part to play in the success of Mayo, Kerry and Dublin but also in the lack of success in many other counties. This has to change.

[Mayo4Sam]

I believe Dublin would not have a problem travelling to play Leinster Championship Matches.

They don't want to though as their vote shows. Having every match at home is a huge advantage for them and getting as much practice as possible on the pitch where all the later stages are played has been significant in their success up to know and in future times.

Of course they're not going to vote against it, turkeys don't vote for Christmas. If Mayo had the choice we'd play every match in CastleBar, that's not to say Dublin wouldn't play outside CP but it needs
To be realised by the other 11 teams!
Can't really blame Dublin on this

[Teo Lurley]

I believe Dublin would not have a problem travelling to play Leinster Championship Matches.

They don't want to though as their vote shows. Having every match at home is a huge advantage for them and getting as much practice as possible on the pitch where all the later stages are played has been significant in their success up to know and in future times.

Of course they're not going to vote against it, turkeys don't vote for Christmas. If Mayo had the choice we'd play every match in CastleBar, that's not to say Dublin wouldn't play outside CP but it needs
To be realised by the other 11 teams!
Can't really blame Dublin on this

There's only one county that consistently votes against dublin having all their games at home, the rest have to sort themselves out. This is irrelevant to the main topic of the thread however.

[Nihilist]

I've already asked you how am I supposed to get the figures? We can all play dumb and pretend that this team isn't spending this amount or that team is spendng more but that's foolng nobody.

Well if you can't get any figures then stop making a silly claim. Back it up with facts. Then people may begin to listen.

So how am I meant to get the figures? You still haven't answered. Like I said, we can all play dumb and pretend it isn't happening.

Money has a big part to play in the success of Mayo, Kerry and Dublin but also in the lack of success in many other counties. This has to change.

First of all you are the one making the claim. I am disputing it where you say that Mayo spend significantly more than Galway and that it is why Mayo got into bother financially. As I told you it was because of the new stand and lighting in McHale park which cost over 10 million and was built in the boom. That is the number one factor why they got into bother financially.  Anything else pales into insignificance.

So you cannot make a simply ridiculous claim without any sort of backup that Mayo are spending way more than Galway. Well obviously you can make any spurious claim you like but I dispute it and I give you the facts to argue my side.

[Mayo4Sam]

I've already asked you how am I supposed to get the figures? We can all play dumb and pretend that this team isn't spending this amount or that team is spendng more but that's foolng nobody.

Well if you can't get any figures then stop making a silly claim. Back it up with facts. Then people may begin to listen.

So how am I meant to get the figures? You still haven't answered. Like I said, we can all play dumb and pretend it isn't happening.

Money has a big part to play in the success of Mayo, Kerry and Dublin but also in the lack of success in many other counties. This has to change.

Leo, would you accept that it's unlikely that Mayo and Donegal are spending to the same degree as Kerry and Dublin?
If you do accept that would you then accept that Galway, Meath, Kildare, Tyrone , Cork and Armagh are all probably spending similar amounts?
Given that we don't know the figures I don't think this is an unreasonable assumption.

Given all that it shows that it's not just money, it's structures and professional processes.

Mayo had a five year plan which although shelved actually was partially implemented, we had a very professional manager come in (likewise with Donegal) and we had an exceptional group of players (likewise with Donegal).
Looking at the other teams they seem to be missing the structure in some counties (Galway, Cork, Kdare, Meath) and the players in others (Armagh, Tyrone, Meath, Kildare, Cork)

So I agree money is needed but it's not just that.

[blanketattack]

Kerry Group and AIG are publicly listed companies with their financial statements freely available and the stock holders calling the shots so if either company were paying anything but the going rate for sponsoring a team with their particular public profile the stock holders would be up in arms.
Since 2000, the games Kerry have played in Croke Park have generated over €100 million in ticket sales alone, so any money the GAA give to Kerry the GAA get serious ROI back.

[Teo Lurley]

I've already asked you how am I supposed to get the figures? We can all play dumb and pretend that this team isn't spending this amount or that team is spendng more but that's foolng nobody.

Well if you can't get any figures then stop making a silly claim. Back it up with facts. Then people may begin to listen.

So how am I meant to get the figures? You still haven't answered. Like I said, we can all play dumb and pretend it isn't happening.

Money has a big part to play in the success of Mayo, Kerry and Dublin but also in the lack of success in many other counties. This has to change.

First of all you are the one making the claim. I am disputing it where you say that Mayo spend significantly more than Galway and that it is why Mayo got into bother financially. As I told you it was because of the new stand and lighting in McHale park which cost over 10 million and was built in the boom. That is the number one factor why they got into bother financially.  Anything else pales into insignificance.

So you cannot make a simply ridiculous claim without any sort of backup that Mayo are spending way more than Galway. Well obviously you can make any spurious claim you like but I dispute it and I give you the facts to argue my side.

Are Mayo people as touchy on this subject as the Dubs? It's not all about Mayo, it's about finance in every county. Mayo got into a little bit of trouble with the stadium but they also spend a lot on their county teams preparation. No I don't have the exact figures and yes you can pretend they spend very little but I don't like playing silly games. We know they are spending far more than Galway and other Connacht teams.

[Teo Lurley]

I've already asked you how am I supposed to get the figures? We can all play dumb and pretend that this team isn't spending this amount or that team is spendng more but that's foolng nobody.

Well if you can't get any figures then stop making a silly claim. Back it up with facts. Then people may begin to listen.

So how am I meant to get the figures? You still haven't answered. Like I said, we can all play dumb and pretend it isn't happening.

Money has a big part to play in the success of Mayo, Kerry and Dublin but also in the lack of success in many other counties. This has to change.

Leo, would you accept that it's unlikely that Mayo and Donegal are spending to the same degree as Kerry and Dublin?
If you do accept that would you then accept that Galway, Meath, Kildare, Tyrone , Cork and Armagh are all probably spending similar amounts?
Given that we don't know the figures I don't think this is an unreasonable assumption.

Given all that it shows that it's not just money, it's structures and professional processes.

Mayo had a five year plan which although shelved actually was partially implemented, we had a very professional manager come in (likewise with Donegal) and we had an exceptional group of players (likewise with Donegal).
Looking at the other teams they seem to be missing the structure in some counties (Galway, Cork, Kdare, Meath) and the players in others (Armagh, Tyrone, Meath, Kildare, Cork)

So I agree money is needed but it's not just that.

Dublin are well out in front in the spending stakes followed by Kerry, yes I agree they're a good bit ahead of the rest.
It's not just money but it has a huge part to play in the widening gap between the top teams and the rest. I don't want to make this about any individual county. We'll get bogged down in lads trying to protect their own. Finance has had a huge impact in the success of various teams, this is a fact and this is what needs to be looked at.

[Nihilist]

Leo, would you accept that it's unlikely that Mayo and Donegal are spending to the same degree as Kerry and Dublin?
If you do accept that would you then accept that Galway, Meath, Kildare, Tyrone , Cork and Armagh are all probably spending similar amounts?
Given that we don't know the figures I don't think this is an unreasonable assumption.

Given all that it shows that it's not just money, it's structures and professional processes.

Mayo had a five year plan which although shelved actually was partially implemented, we had a very professional manager come in (likewise with Donegal) and we had an exceptional group of players (likewise with Donegal).
Looking at the other teams they seem to be missing the structure in some counties (Galway, Cork, Kdare, Meath) and the players in others (Armagh, Tyrone, Meath, Kildare, Cork)

So I agree money is needed but it's not just that.

That is more on the money (pardon the pun). Kerry and Dublin have significantly more resources than any other County. Lets look at

Dublin first.
Massive Gate receipts. Huge Sponsorship from a number of benefactors. Always play at home so players, coaches, trainers all teams, supporters etc don't have the cost burden of traveling for training and/or staying in a different remote location. Huge payback, costs and savings here I would say.

Kerry
Sponsored by Kerry Group which is valued at what - several billion? A couple million a year is not that much to them. Anyway here's a story about the Kerry U16s. They were training hard this year and to help get them to peak fitness they got that gear (see Tyrone wearing it e.g. Cavanaghs back) to monitor distance and other stuff. I understand it's not cheap but maybe it is? Anyway - the U16s won the All Ireland. But this was the girls U-16 team. Moral of the story is that if this is what they have available for U-16 girls - well you can only imagine what is available at Senior mens inter-county.