The Advanced Mark

[thewobbler]

Coaches will try to coach around whatever is presented to  them dreadnought, for the one unifying principle of GAA coaching seems to be to never coach skills when you can coach ways to compensate for a lack of skill, instead.

——

Honestly I believe you're missing a small part of the thought process here, which is the bit that connects it all.

Should two teams have absolutely no interest or intent in attacking then there is no rule changes that make the game into a spectacle. This is the same in every sport.

Where football suffers in comparison to other sports, is that if one of the teams is determined to spoil the game by eating the clock, retaining the ball etc, that it is pretty much necessary for their opponents to mirror that type of football. If not, they'll tire themselves out chasing the ball around, mentally as much as physically.

What the backcourt rule would do is ensure that if one team wants to play football, then the other team can't spoil it (entirely) for them. For when the attack-minded team presses, the opposition simply has to come out; they will not have the room within their own 45 to play keep ball.... And once they've left that third of the field, it's closed off to them, meaning the attack-minded team has a much smaller space again in which to press them.

——

Would coaches spend hours at training setting up "u formations"? You know what... initially some would. And it would even work sometimes. But then you have to begin to balance things up. Should you have a policy of 4-5 men committing wherever possible to "forcing a 45", is that 45 enough of a reward for the fact that if the opponent gets the ball away, an overlap is statistically inevitable?

[Dreadnought]

Coaches will try to coach around whatever is presented to  them dreadnought, for the one unifying principle of GAA coaching seems to be to never coach skills when you can coach ways to compensate for a lack of skill, instead.

——

Honestly I believe you're missing a small part of the thought process here, which is the bit that connects it all.

Should two teams have absolutely no interest or intent in attacking then there is no rule changes that make the game into a spectacle. This is the same in every sport.

Where football suffers in comparison to other sports, is that if one of the teams is determined to spoil the game by eating the clock, retaining the ball etc, that it is pretty much necessary for their opponents to mirror that type of football. If not, they'll tire themselves out chasing the ball around, mentally as much as physically.

What the backcourt rule would do is ensure that if one team wants to play football, then the other team can't spoil it (entirely) for them. For when the attack-minded team presses, the opposition simply has to come out; they will not have the room within their own 45 to play keep ball.... And once they've left that third of the field, it's closed off to them, meaning the attack-minded team has a much smaller space again in which to press them.

——

Would coaches spend hours at training setting up "u formations"? You know what... initially some would. And it would even work sometimes. But then you have to begin to balance things up. Should you have a policy of 4-5 men committing wherever possible to "forcing a 45", is that 45 enough of a reward for the fact that if the opponent gets the ball away, an overlap is statistically inevitable?

They absolutely will. But either way, the game needs tweaks, not huge changes that may irreversibly change the game. Coaches will try get around it so we need tweaks to adjust issues to try and streamline it and make the game more attacking and open. We are trying to chase a utopia style game that never actually existed in the past based on what ol' boys used to talk about. What we can do is try and make the modern game better. But coming up with mad stuff like no returning over a line is really odd. it's a field sport, but we'd reduce the field at certain times when we're trying to make more space?

[Mourne Red]

The game doesn't need any more interference feel like the rules change every year and this "Football Development Panel" is just jobs for the boys (£££).

If people want open and attacking football then only way that doesn't make an absolute shit show of the game is to drop the players on a team from 15 to 13. Player's will still flood back yes but more space available to get scores from

[Derryman forever]

Any suggestion that Defenders or forwards  cant cross the half way line is simply laughable.
Half backs have been scoring  since adam wad a boy.

The biggest problem with football is negative commentary and too much  available to see and comment on.
Go back and watch games from the 70s , 80, and 90s. There were many Turgid affairs with very poor skills and no plan. Just hoof it as far as possible and hope.

The second biggest problem with football is that people from counties that are doing well, would quite happily sleep through a season of matches as long as their county wins Sam.

f**k whether the sport is in any way fun or entertaining, so long as we are winning.

The sport like any other needs maintenance.
But there are as many entertaining games now as there ever was.
There is simply much more of it on display and therefore more mediocre games to whinge about.
If you want to see more attacking football lets do something about the tackle. To see the ball carrier surrounded by 3 or four men in a mall and then blow them up for overcarrying is not right.
Simple answer, penalise the 3rd man in and give forwards a chance to display their abilities.
The centre field players will have more confidence in their forwards and more likely to play the ball in.

And cheap shots about which supporters county is doing well or not is just begrudgery not support.
Wise up.

[thewobbler]

Just as an aside.

Your annoyance at "arbitrary lines" is perhaps OTT.

All field sports are founded upon arbitrary lines being drawn to signal the boundaries of the playing area.

I'm surely not alone in being in awe at the awareness, skill and perception shown by rugby players and NFL players - on both sides of the ball - when the presence of a sideline (or endline, or 20m line, or 10 yard imaginary line) can influence the current play.

Neither of these sports see arbitrary lines as a problem, just a necessary mechanism for keeping the game moving. Why not Gaelic football?

[thewobbler]

Derryman forever, it's not a cheap shot at all.

This board goes back forever and a day.

Look at threads on rule changes from the early noughties and it's Donegal ones saying there's nothing wrong with the game. Look at the late noughties threads and it's all Dublin ones telling us that we should get better at football instead of trying to change the rules. The past few years it's Derry wans telling us that football is as good to watch now as it ever was.

With all due respect, I don't think people from your county are currently objective about the state of Gaelic Football. This isn't a criticism of Derry btw... you folks didn't create this mess and it's absolute credit that instead of whinging about it, you've caught up.

But football is shite. Absolute shite. That's our sport and it's absolute shite.

[Rossfan]

Enforce the steps rule (and the 15 second mark rule for attackers while ye're at it ) to make the ball more available.
Coach tackling the ball from an early age.

Letting the man with the ball assault would be tacklers is a strike and should have the same penalty (red) as if the tackler assaulted the man with the ball.

The ball is not the personal possession of a player and anyone trying to keep it shouldn't be getting the privileges/abuses they're being wrongly allowed these days.

[Derryman forever]

Derryman forever, it's not a cheap shot at all.

This board goes back forever and a day.

Look at threads on rule changes from the early noughties and it's Donegal ones saying there's nothing wrong with the game. Look at the late noughties threads and it's all Dublin ones telling us that we should get better at football instead of trying to change the rules. The past few years it's Derry wans telling us that football is as good to watch now as it ever was.

With all due respect, I don't think people from your county are currently objective about the state of Gaelic Football. This isn't a criticism of Derry btw... you folks didn't create this mess and it's absolute credit that instead of whinging about it, you've caught up.

But football is shite. Absolute shite. That's our sport and it's absolute shite.

Its begrudgery nothing more.

Derry are nothing special and wont be winning Sam anytime soon.
But almost every game does have moments of magic and you see these moments from previous games being used to say you never see this anymore.
Just recently I think it was Cahir O'kane highlighted impossible scores from deep in the pocket that are never tried anymore.
The following week Niall Toner pinned one from an even more Impossible angle.  But nobody highlighted it.

I advise that people actually sit down and watch the great games of yesterday with a critical mind.
Take the 1994 Ulster semi final Down and Derry. Hailed as one of the great games of the 90s. Perhaps it was.  I think it was ordinary enough, but was it better than last years Semifinal with Kerry and Derry?

[Dreadnought]

Just as an aside.

Your annoyance at "arbitrary lines" is perhaps OTT.

All field sports are founded upon arbitrary lines being drawn to signal the boundaries of the playing area.

I'm surely not alone in being in awe at the awareness, skill and perception shown by rugby players and NFL players - on both sides of the ball - when the presence of a sideline (or endline, or 20m line, or 10 yard imaginary line) can influence the current play.

Neither of these sports see arbitrary lines as a problem, just a necessary mechanism for keeping the game moving. Why not Gaelic football?

I don't think it is OTT. You are saying once you pass a 45 you can't return. That literally is drawing an arbitrary line or barrier you can't return past and I cannot see in any way how this helps the game other than players and coaches finding a way to make it a mess for a turnover

[Armagh18]

The game doesn't need any more interference feel like the rules change every year and this "Football Development Panel" is just jobs for the boys (£££).

If people want open and attacking football then only way that doesn't make an absolute shit show of the game is to drop the players on a team from 15 to 13. Player's will still flood back yes but more space available to get scores from

This new thing Burns has started? At least give it a chance. If it got rid of the inside mark and penalty shootouts I'd be happy.

[thewobbler]

Just as an aside.

Your annoyance at "arbitrary lines" is perhaps OTT.

All field sports are founded upon arbitrary lines being drawn to signal the boundaries of the playing area.

I'm surely not alone in being in awe at the awareness, skill and perception shown by rugby players and NFL players - on both sides of the ball - when the presence of a sideline (or endline, or 20m line, or 10 yard imaginary line) can influence the current play.

Neither of these sports see arbitrary lines as a problem, just a necessary mechanism for keeping the game moving. Why not Gaelic football?

I don't think it is OTT. You are saying once you pass a 45 you can't return. That literally is drawing an arbitrary line or barrier you can't return past and I cannot see in any way how this helps the game other than players and coaches finding a way to make it a mess for a turnover

"In any way"?

You honestly can't see how the back court rule would reward teams for pressing up and pushing the opposition out?

 I do think you've settled on a position before considering it.

[Dreadnought]

Just as an aside.

Your annoyance at "arbitrary lines" is perhaps OTT.

All field sports are founded upon arbitrary lines being drawn to signal the boundaries of the playing area.

I'm surely not alone in being in awe at the awareness, skill and perception shown by rugby players and NFL players - on both sides of the ball - when the presence of a sideline (or endline, or 20m line, or 10 yard imaginary line) can influence the current play.

Neither of these sports see arbitrary lines as a problem, just a necessary mechanism for keeping the game moving. Why not Gaelic football?

I don't think it is OTT. You are saying once you pass a 45 you can't return. That literally is drawing an arbitrary line or barrier you can't return past and I cannot see in any way how this helps the game other than players and coaches finding a way to make it a mess for a turnover

"In any way"?

You honestly can't see how the back court rule would reward teams for pressing up and pushing the opposition out?

 I do think you've settled on a position before considering it.

Absolutely I've thought of it. It rewards pressing like you say, in a U. So everyone drops back immediately to the 45 line to crowd the area. Where's the space for attacks with so many back? And then you swarm a fella who steps a foot inside the 45? Why over reward defence and not try and get ways to open space and get lads to attack instead?

[thewobbler]

Derryman forever, it's not a cheap shot at all.

This board goes back forever and a day.

Look at threads on rule changes from the early noughties and it's Donegal ones saying there's nothing wrong with the game. Look at the late noughties threads and it's all Dublin ones telling us that we should get better at football instead of trying to change the rules. The past few years it's Derry wans telling us that football is as good to watch now as it ever was.

With all due respect, I don't think people from your county are currently objective about the state of Gaelic Football. This isn't a criticism of Derry btw... you folks didn't create this mess and it's absolute credit that instead of whinging about it, you've caught up.

But football is shite. Absolute shite. That's our sport and it's absolute shite.

Its begrudgery nothing more.

Derry are nothing special and wont be winning Sam anytime soon.
But almost every game does have moments of magic and you see these moments from previous games being used to say you never see this anymore.
Just recently I think it was Cahir O'kane highlighted impossible scores from deep in the pocket that are never tried anymore.
The following week Niall Toner pinned one from an even more Impossible angle.  But nobody highlighted it.

I advise that people actually sit down and watch the great games of yesterday with a critical mind.
Take the 1994 Ulster semi final Down and Derry. Hailed as one of the great games of the 90s. Perhaps it was.  I think it was ordinary enough, but was it better than last years Semifinal with Kerry and Derry?

This sort of discussion kind of reminds me of the Robin Williams and Matt Damon chat in Good Will Hunting.

Dismiss the quality of the 1994 match all you like.  Dismiss old football all you like.

Stats can tell you football has never been better.

But anybody who has experienced both the championship going experience of the 90s-00s, and that of today, and claims to prefer the latter, is either a liar or a wind up merchant.

[thewobbler]

Just as an aside.

Your annoyance at "arbitrary lines" is perhaps OTT.

All field sports are founded upon arbitrary lines being drawn to signal the boundaries of the playing area.

I'm surely not alone in being in awe at the awareness, skill and perception shown by rugby players and NFL players - on both sides of the ball - when the presence of a sideline (or endline, or 20m line, or 10 yard imaginary line) can influence the current play.

Neither of these sports see arbitrary lines as a problem, just a necessary mechanism for keeping the game moving. Why not Gaelic football?

I don't think it is OTT. You are saying once you pass a 45 you can't return. That literally is drawing an arbitrary line or barrier you can't return past and I cannot see in any way how this helps the game other than players and coaches finding a way to make it a mess for a turnover

"In any way"?

You honestly can't see how the back court rule would reward teams for pressing up and pushing the opposition out?

 I do think you've settled on a position before considering it.

Absolutely I've thought of it. It rewards pressing like you say, in a U. So everyone drops back immediately to the 45 line to crowd the area. Where's the space for attacks with so many back? And then you swarm a fella who steps a foot inside the 45? Why over reward defence and not try and get ways to open space and get lads to attack instead?

It's not devised to over-reward defensive pressure. It's devised as a deterrent to the endless recycling of possession through skill-less handpassing into acres of space; the single greatest blight on Gaelic Football.

The value of possession currently dominates that of territory. Until this is addressed our game will continue to be an abomination.

[trileacman]

Jarlth has plans to look at the game of football and change its negativity

Going to be difficult

I vowed never to type this up again. But I can't help it.

The fundamental problem with football is that the value of possession greatly outweighs the value of territory.

So instead of the rule makers looking at gimmicks - like the advanced mark - they need to look at the fundamental structures of the game.

Bring in the half court rule (no returning over either 45) and bring in a substantial penalty for breaking the rule (45m free from hand or the ground).

There will be a period of adjustment when (particular club) teams who've spent the past 10 years protecting the D, are afraid to leave the D at all. But it'll slowly dawn on everyone that when the opposition press you, the best thing you can do is move the ball quickly into the spaces left in their half. And I before long they'll understand that if they don't score every time it doesn't matter - as the ball will be returned to them much more often under these principles.

Under these rules Id just coach my team to play Mourinho ball. Take an early lead. Then simply retreat all 15 of our players into my own half. If the opposing team are down 3/4 points they can't just sit back. They must advance into our half. And once they do they're trapped in it. Win a turnover and break into the oceans of space present in their half because all of my team and a large proportion of theirs are in my half.

This would ingrain the current extra-time tactic of mass retreat by the leading team.