MPs unite to fight law that will make abortions available in Northern Ireland

[Tankie]

As an aside to this debate, maybe a question that should be asked is why do we live in a society where so many women feel that abortion is their only option? Is it the shame still associated with having a child out of wedlock? The perception that an unplanned pregnancy ruins your life? Or the fear that you will have no support from family/friends/boyfriend?

Women feel abortion is an option because it's a get out clause - a way to run away from their responsibility. 
Shame associated with having a child out of wedlock?  Are you taking the piss?  I'd say this would be quite rare in Ireland these days and it certainly wouldn't be a factor in most other countries (England or the US to name but two). 


Tankie, we wouldn't want to put off travelling for a year now would we? 

Not everone see's having a baby as this wonderful giving of life that you may have. in this day and age alot of people dont want to or are not ready to have kids before they are 30 (i know i dont want them till after that) and to make a 21 yr old have a baby just beause of your beliefs is crazy. Same applys to rape victams etc, why should they have the baby if they dont want it?

No, but you face up to your responsibilities.  You seem to be trying to justify abortion - the ending of a life - with some pathetic arguments. If a 21 year old goes out and has sex then they are well fit to take the responsabilities (or potential responsabilities) that go wtih it.  In this day and age with contraception so readily available (and I know it's not always 100%) there aren't many excuses for unplanned pregnancies.

Rape victims are a completely different argument and abortions as a result of rape makes up a tiny (about 1% I think) of all abortions.

How can you say rape victims are different if you see abortion as the taking of a life? I also dont believe in this arguement that you must face up to your responsibilities and using contraception is a form or abortion as you are preventing a life - hense the catholic church will not allow contraception. Abortion should be a choice everyone has as it is the best thing in some circumstances!

[Maguire01]

How can you say rape victims are different if you see abortion as the taking of a life? I also dont believe in this arguement that you must face up to your responsibilities and using contraception is a form or abortion as you are preventing a life - hense the catholic church will not allow contraception. Abortion should be a choice everyone has as it is the best thing in some circumstances!

I don't think we should go down the road of the Catholic Church's teachings here. It values life so much that it would rather millions died of AIDS than sanction the use of condoms.

[Donagh]

I don't think we should go down the road of the Catholic Church's teachings here. It values life so much that it would rather millions died of AIDS than sanction the use of condoms.

Surely they would rather Catholics abided by their teachings and refrained from sex before marriage thereby negating the need for condoms to prevent AIDS.

[Maguire01]

I don't think we should go down the road of the Catholic Church's teachings here. It values life so much that it would rather millions died of AIDS than sanction the use of condoms.

Surely they would rather Catholics abided by their teachings and refrained from sex before marriage thereby negating the need for condoms to prevent AIDS.

Are you serious? Millions of Africans have AIDS, many of them are married. The Catholic Church opposes the use of contraceptives in these instances as well.

[Zapatista]

How can you say rape victims are different if you see abortion as the taking of a life? I also dont believe in this arguement that you must face up to your responsibilities and using contraception is a form or abortion as you are preventing a life - hense the catholic church will not allow contraception. Abortion should be a choice everyone has as it is the best thing in some circumstances!

I don't think we should go down the road of the Catholic Church's teachings here. It values life so much that it would rather millions died of AIDS than sanction the use of condoms.

You might find that if people lived by the rules of the Catholic Church AIDS would be a minor problem. The Cathholic Church do offer alternatives.

[The Iceman]

good man Maguire - do your best to ambush whatever thread you can with your anti-catholic anti-church ideas and opinions

in one breath you put down people for expressing any notion of faith or religion and God forbid should they push those opinions on anyone else, yet at the same time you continue to push your anti-church sentiments on everyone else.

aside from that and back to topic....

I am definitely pro-life.  Not solely because of religious reasons but also moral reasons.  I believe life begins at conception.  I believe I have a soul and all humans have a soul. 
I believe that God creates all human life, and that life begins at conception, and that killing another human being is wrong, then I must accept that abortion is wrong and I do.

People talk about pro-choice but what choice does the baby have in abortion?

I really don't agree with the argument that these babies (if they were not aborted) end up uncared for, unloved, criminals etc etc.  Who are we to decide children's fate? Who are we to make the call that their life won't be worth living or nothing will come of them so lets kill them now? 

Despite my objection to abortion, I am not suggesting that we lose common decency and compassion when approaching individual cases but I do believe that there are alternative options in 99.99% of cases.

[Maguire01]

good man Maguire - do your best to ambush whatever thread you can with your anti-catholic anti-church ideas and opinions

in one breath you put down people for expressing any notion of faith or religion and God forbid should they push those opinions on anyone else, yet at the same time you continue to push your anti-church sentiments on everyone else.

Yes, and you get ultra defensive. It wasn't an ambush - i've been on this thread from the start and was merely responding to a comment regarding contraception (of which there have been many). My comment suggested we didn't go down that route as well. (As you'll see from my first post on this thread, i was looking for the political angle.)

In relation to my comment Iceman, is it misleading or inaccurate?
I didn't put down anyone - a lot of people have faith and religion, yet don't bow to the ridiculous idea that it's better for people to contract HIV than wear a condom.
And yes 'God forbid' anyone who advises people not to use contraceptives in such situations - shame on them!

As for me pushing my opinions - i'm not! This is a discussion board and i'm free to express my opinions. No one is obliged to read this board and if you're easily offended, you don't have to read it. I have yet to receive a warning from mods that i have broken any rules. I'm not pushing my opinions or sentiments on anyone.

[Zapatista]

In relation to my comment Iceman, is it misleading or inaccurate?
I didn't put down anyone - a lot of people have faith and religion, yet don't bow to the ridiculous idea that it's better for people to contract HIV than wear a condom.
And yes 'God forbid' anyone who advises people not to use contraceptives in such situations - shame on them!

The Catholic Church do not think it is better to contract HIV. You are either mistaking or telling a lie. They say it is better to have one partner in one relationship and eliminate the spread of HIV. What you are suggesting is a complete (intentional or unintentional?) misrepresentation of the position of the CC>

[pintsofguinness]

There can be several factors as to why a woman chooses abortion, all of them are not because they are running away from responibilites. And on the second point, no I am not taking the piss, have you any idea how a single woman (especially in her teens) feels when she has a unplanned pregnancy? any idea what she feels if her boyfriend does a runner or how she feels when she has to try and tell her family? Like it or not there is still a stigma attached to a single girl/women getting pregnant and even worse if she is not in a stable relationship.

Of course they're running away from their responsibilities.  I'd think a lot more of a single woman who's bringing up a child by herself than I would of one who had an abortion.  Even if they are concerned about how people perceive them that doesn't justify ending a life.  A life is more important than their reputation.


Tankie

How can you say rape victims are different if you see abortion as the taking of a life? I also dont believe in this argument that you must face up to your responsibilities and using contraception is a form or abortion as you are preventing a life - hense the catholic church will not allow contraception. Abortion should be a choice everyone has as it is the best thing in some circumstances!

Yes tankie it's still taking a life however the mother's life must be preserved and if her physical or mental health is at risk then I could understand abortion.  It just think such circumstances are extremely sad.  In the same way a paramedic may have to choose who to save.
The Catholic Church, tankie, teaches that life begins at conception and as a result they teach against abortions.  I'm not sure why exactly they teach against contraception but they certainly don't teach that life begins in sperm.  You're presenting a silly argument with the contraception thing but if you're going to cite the Catholic church as an authority at least get it right.

[Maguire01]

In relation to my comment Iceman, is it misleading or inaccurate?
I didn't put down anyone - a lot of people have faith and religion, yet don't bow to the ridiculous idea that it's better for people to contract HIV than wear a condom.
And yes 'God forbid' anyone who advises people not to use contraceptives in such situations - shame on them!

The Catholic Church do not think it is better to contract HIV. You are either mistaking or telling a lie. They say it is better to have one partner in one relationship and eliminate the spread of HIV. What you are suggesting is a complete (intentional or unintentional?) misrepresentation of the position of the CC>

Let me repeat the example i was referencing:

Millions of Africans have AIDS, many of them are married. The Catholic Church opposes the use of contraceptives in these instances as well.

I know what the Catholic Church teaches 'in an ideal world', but that isn't reality. If a man has HIV and his wife doesn't, or vice versa, is it right to say that they can't use a condom? That's what i'm referring to. In such situations, the Catholic Church still won't sanction the use of condoms. Google it if you don't believe me.

[The Iceman]

two wrongs dont make a right

and this thread isn't about contraception and the catholic church - its about abortion - so start another thread

and stop playing the innocent victim in all this it doesn't suit you

[Maguire01]

two wrongs dont make a right

Well at least you've acknowledged I was telling the truth and there is a 'wrong' there.

and this thread isn't about contraception and the catholic church - its about abortion - so start another thread

Any topic must be discussed in context. Many of those posting with 'anti-abortion' views referenced contraceptives - and rightly so. But you can't expect me to ignore inconvenient truths just because you don't like them.  But if you want to, feel free to start another thread on contraception and the Catholic church.

and stop playing the innocent victim in all this it doesn't suit you

Where have i played the innocent victim? I'm not a victim of anything. What does that mean?

[Lazer]

Yes tankie it's still taking a life however the mother's life must be preserved and if her physical or mental health is at risk then I could understand abortion. 

The way the law stands in England abortion is not meant to available on demand

The Act allowed a woman to receive an abortion on any of the following grounds:

To save the woman's life
To prevent grave permanent injury to the woman's physical or mental health
Under 28 weeks to avoid injury to the physical or mental health of the woman
Under 28 weeks to avoid injury to the physical or mental health of the existing child(ren)
If the child was likely to be severely physically or mentally handicapped
The Act required that the procedure must be certified by two doctors before being performed.

[pintsofguinness]

Yes tankie it's still taking a life however the mother's life must be preserved and if her physical or mental health is at risk then I could understand abortion. 

The way the law stands in England abortion is not meant to available on demand

The Act allowed a woman to receive an abortion on any of the following grounds:

To save the woman's life
To prevent grave permanent injury to the woman's physical or mental health
Under 28 weeks to avoid injury to the physical or mental health of the woman
Under 28 weeks to avoid injury to the physical or mental health of the existing child(ren)
If the child was likely to be severely physically or mentally handicapped
The Act required that the procedure must be certified by two doctors before being performed.

Well there must be an awful lot of doctors acting unlawfully because a huge majority of abortions carried out in England are not for those reasons.

[Lazer]

Yes tankie it's still taking a life however the mother's life must be preserved and if her physical or mental health is at risk then I could understand abortion. 

The way the law stands in England abortion is not meant to available on demand

The Act allowed a woman to receive an abortion on any of the following grounds:

To save the woman's life
To prevent grave permanent injury to the woman's physical or mental health
Under 28 weeks to avoid injury to the physical or mental health of the woman
Under 28 weeks to avoid injury to the physical or mental health of the existing child(ren)
If the child was likely to be severely physically or mentally handicapped
The Act required that the procedure must be certified by two doctors before being performed.

Well there must be an awful lot of doctors acting unlawfully because a huge majority of abortions carried out in England are not for those reasons.

The 28 weeks was subsequently reduced to 24, but the rest of the law still stands. And this is exactly why abortion here on any grounds, legalising abortion on any grounds just paves the way for abortion on demand!