Mother and Baby Home Report

[Baile Brigín 2]

I'd seriously doubt that American couples coming over here to adopt a child didn't have to make a "donation" to whatever order of nuns to smooth over the paperwork for it to happen....

Again the Commission found no evidence of any such practice. It's still possible that particular individuals personally demanded and/or took bribes, but there is no evidence of payments to orders.

No evidence as in there was no paperwork

[Baile Brigín 2]

A wet fart of a report

No evidence women were coerced into homes and a very convenient finding that no money was made off the 'adoption' ring.

In 1943 35 children died in a fire in a nun run orphanage in Cavan. The nuns were alleged to have stopped the rescue as the girls were in nighties. The investigation failed to look at why the nuns blocked the rescue.

Maybe we haven't moved on as far as we think.

That's a bloody lie for starters. The Magdalene Laundries were run on a commercial basis. The nuns undercut all opposition because they had an abundance of unpaid labour.

The Commission Report concluded that the Mother and Baby Homes were not run on a commercial basis, and only broke even through contributions from the Church.

And do you believe that?

It's not a matter of belief. The Report is clear.

https://assets.gov.ie/118591/719b80df-8280-41d1-b5db-29c269193536.pdf

Finances
35. The capitation payments for women and children in the mother and baby homes
were financed from the rates paid to the local authorities. In 1947, the health
services generally started to be partially financed from national taxation. It seems
to be at this stage that the mother and baby homes started to be required to
provide audited accounts to the Department of Health. These accounts were then
used to determine whether an increase in the capitation payments was merited.

36. The Commission has not seen any evidence that the religious orders who ran the
mother and baby homes made a profit from so doing. At various times, it is clear
that they struggled to make ends meet and their members were not always paid for
their work. This was a particular problem when occupancy levels fell and women
stayed for shorter periods. Payments by local authorities were not always on time.

37. The capitation rates, while they were not overly generous, and often failed to keep
pace with inflation, were considerably more generous that the social welfare
payments available to an adult and a child living in the community.
38. Under the institutional assistance regulations, the women in the homes (or, if they
were under 16, their parents) could have been charged for their stay in the homes
but this does not appear to have happened in most of the larger institutions.
Residents in county homes were charged if they had an income.

I am aware of what the report says. Thats why I brought it up.

I'm saying its a load of bollovks and a very important load of bollocks as compensation is harder to get as a result of this bollocks finding.

[currychip]

I'd seriously doubt that American couples coming over here to adopt a child didn't have to make a "donation" to whatever order of nuns to smooth over the paperwork for it to happen....

Again the Commission found no evidence of any such practice. It's still possible that particular individuals personally demanded and/or took bribes, but there is no evidence of payments to orders.

No evidence as in there was no paperwork

Yet with no evidence you still know it to be true.

[Fear Bun Na Sceilpe]

Was surprised to hear today that more Protestant women and children suffered this treatment than Catholic in the 6 counties

[armaghniac]

Was surprised to hear today that more Protestant women and children suffered this treatment than Catholic in the 6 counties

Why? There were more Protestant women and children than Catholic in the 6 counties.

[Fear Bun Na Sceilpe]

Was surprised to hear today that more Protestant women and children suffered this treatment than Catholic in the 6 counties

Why? There were more Protestant women and children than Catholic in the 6 counties.

Just didn't realise that the Protestant system existed , never heard it talked about

[restorepride]

Was surprised to hear today that more Protestant women and children suffered this treatment than Catholic in the 6 counties

Why? There were more Protestant women and children than Catholic in the 6 counties.

True - but the Protestant community had access to contraceptives, legally and morally, things that the Catholic community was still ignorant about.

[Main Street]

I'd seriously doubt that American couples coming over here to adopt a child didn't have to make a "donation" to whatever order of nuns to smooth over the paperwork for it to happen....

Again the Commission found no evidence of any such practice. It's still possible that particular individuals personally demanded and/or took bribes, but there is no evidence of payments to orders.

No evidence as in there was no paperwork

Yet with no evidence you still know it to be true.

There is  plenty of  evidence but those who  did the report claimed that there was insufficient evidence to prove the case conclusively.  Shame on them,  why the need for conclusive evidence? when the dogs on the street know  palms were greased. They could  easily have chosen to keep an open mind on the matter,  but hey, an open mind is a dangerous thing, they chose to rule conclusively.
However  I'd surmise (obvious mother's grief and repression notwithstanding) that many of those babies who were airlifted to the USA were better off away from the stain of  being the result of a sinful act,  that they would have endured in Ireland from the large army of small minded bigots and religious zealots who permeated  every nook and cranny of irish society.

[Rossfan]

Was surprised to hear today that more Protestant women and children suffered this treatment than Catholic in the 6 counties

Why? There were more Protestant women and children than Catholic in the 6 counties.

True - but the Protestant community had access to contraceptives, legally and morally, things that the Catholic community was still ignorant about.

I'd say a lot of backwoods rural Protestant people wouldn't have had that much knowledge etc up to the 50s or maybe later?

[seafoid]

The report was written in a typical bureaucratic style about a historic atrocity. Redress required. It ignored a large part of the victim input. People unhappy


I was reading about a French Government report in to the treatment of the Harkis, Algerian Muslims who fought with the French in the Algerian war of Independence.  Another historic atrocity. Redress required.

The approach taken was very similar. It ignored a large part of the victim input. People unhappy

[Baile Brigín 2]

I'd seriously doubt that American couples coming over here to adopt a child didn't have to make a "donation" to whatever order of nuns to smooth over the paperwork for it to happen....

Again the Commission found no evidence of any such practice. It's still possible that particular individuals personally demanded and/or took bribes, but there is no evidence of payments to orders.

No evidence as in there was no paperwork

Yet with no evidence you still know it to be true.

He repeats. Do you believe no money changed hands?

[Main Street]

It has emerged that the  the audio recordings of all 500 of those who gave their testimony have been destroyed.
The testimonies contradicted at every turn the findings of the tribunal, now they have just chucked them into the bin.

Senator McGreehan
"The destruction of audio recordings of the personal interviews given by survivors of mother and baby homes is truly phenomenal. This report has not met any standards of decency or justice due to very obvious contradictions in the Executive Summary.
"To add insult to injury the voices and words of women who were interviewed have been destroyed. I personally find it hard to believe that this has happened.
"As far as I believed, the women were to receive copies of their testimonies and now that opportunity is gone. One of the many problems with the report was that the women's testimonies were not accounted for properly and now we have no way of proving this.

"This is a report that the State has paid for and the authors should be accountable and answer very legitimate questions."

[Lar Naparka]

I'm surprised that with all that has been said or written about the actions od the nuns involved and the politicians of the time, nothing had ben brought up about the mindset of the hierarchy during the ate 19th and early 20 th century.
To put it mildly, the bishops and the upper echelons of the clergy were well to the right of Oliver Cromwell on moral matters.That would be put down to the effect of the heresy of Jansenism on the Irish Church.
Irish Catholic society was strictly segregated at the time so there was a wide gap between the poor, those slightly more prosperous and the middle classes, shopkeepers, big farmers and merchants ans the likes.
When it came to vocations for the priesthood, the poor didn't count; those a few steps above them could shovell a son off to All Hallows, Maynooth and the likes.
HOwever, the sons of those with a bit of money in the bank wouldn/t dream of mixing with the lower classes nad would be sent to Salamanca in Spain or Louvain in Belgium.
Problem here was that many of the teachers at Louvain followed the teachings of a theologian named Jansen. Jansenism denied  free will and maintained that human nature is corrupt and that Christ died for the elect and not for all humanity.
So, many who were ordained at Louvain were tainted and as only priests from the middle classes got positions of power island influence in the Irish Church, the general mindset wasn't a liberal one. Johnny the blacksmith's son was hardly likely to become a parish priest of any well to do parish and a curacy in a one horse town was about all he could expect.
But the upper tier controlled all Caathilic schools and the children were influenced by Jansenist teachers. When they became adults their children followed in their wake and Irish society became far less liberal than was the case in mainland Carhoilc countries.
Incidentally, Jansenism was condemned by several popes as heresy.
Girl conceiving out of wedlock was a big no-no. It meant the devil was hard at work trying to ensnare souls and the poor girls were occasions of sin and had to be removed from society asap.
As politicians had passed through the Irish educational system, they were as merciless as their clerical counterparts.

[five points]

I'm surprised that with all that has been said or written about the actions od the nuns involved and the politicians of the time, nothing had ben brought up about the mindset of the hierarchy during the ate 19th and early 20 th century.
To put it mildly, the bishops and the upper echelons of the clergy were well to the right of Oliver Cromwell on moral matters.That would be put down to the effect of the heresy of Jansenism on the Irish Church.
Irish Catholic society was strictly segregated at the time so there was a wide gap between the poor, those slightly more prosperous and the middle classes, shopkeepers, big farmers and merchants ans the likes.
When it came to vocations for the priesthood, the poor didn't count; those a few steps above them could shovell a son off to All Hallows, Maynooth and the likes.
HOwever, the sons of those with a bit of money in the bank wouldn/t dream of mixing with the lower classes nad would be sent to Salamanca in Spain or Louvain in Belgium.
Problem here was that many of the teachers at Louvain followed the teachings of a theologian named Jansen. Jansenism denied  free will and maintained that human nature is corrupt and that Christ died for the elect and not for all humanity.
So, many who were ordained at Louvain were tainted and as only priests from the middle classes got positions of power island influence in the Irish Church, the general mindset wasn't a liberal one. Johnny the blacksmith's son was hardly likely to become a parish priest of any well to do parish and a curacy in a one horse town was about all he could expect.
But the upper tier controlled all Caathilic schools and the children were influenced by Jansenist teachers. When they became adults their children followed in their wake and Irish society became far less liberal than was the case in mainland Carhoilc countries.
Incidentally, Jansenism was condemned by several popes as heresy.
Girl conceiving out of wedlock was a big no-no. It meant the devil was hard at work trying to ensnare souls and the poor girls were occasions of sin and had to be removed from society asap.
As politicians had passed through the Irish educational system, they were as merciless as their clerical counterparts.

Claptrap. My father grew up in a single-chimney cottage on a small farm and his uncle, who grew up in the same cottage a generation earlier, studied in Salamanca by getting a diocesan scholarship there. The blacksmith had a bigger farm than they had.

My father's uncle is still revered in one of the poorest parishes of the county for building them a modest but beautiful church, which he financed by donations from emigrants from the locality.

[seafoid]

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/michael-viney-my-1964-no-birthright-series-on-unmarried-mothers-left-half-the-story-untold-1.4461506

Ethna heard her local parish priest denouncing an unmarried mother by name from the altar; she is still shocked to recall it. Could it be, she wonders, that nuns, often dispersed with teenage dowries from the fringes of large families, became embittered from being denied a life, and years of dealing with "fallen" women and babies they were led to see as the unfortunate spawn of the Devil?
In the 1960s, the teaching of sociology in Ireland rested almost entirely with priestly academics, for whom the primal texts were the papal encyclicals. These helped to shape a vocational vision of Church-State affairs in which separation of powers was anathema.
The Irish Times booklets that collected my series became, in due course, examples of baseline survey work read with interest by sociology students. In the early 1970s I was invited by a university to contribute a modern volume to a history of social life in Ireland. Flattered and excited, I began research. After most of a year, I begged to be excused, oppressed by the interweave of governance and clerical power in the newly independent state.