Sam Maguire permutations

[twohands!!!]

At the moment the 4 1st seeds and 4 2nd seed are going to come from these 8 lines

Roscommon/Galway
Sligo/New York
Kerry/Tipperary
Clare/Limerick
Offaly/Meath/Westmeath/Louth
Wicklow/Kildare/Laois/Dublin
Derry/Monaghan
Down/Donegal/Cavan/Armagh

The third seed situation is
Mayo
the loser of Roscommon/Galway
Tyrone
one from Kerry/Monaghan/Dublin/Derry

The fourth seed situation is less clear yet.
Westmeath will take one of the spots if they don't get to the Leinster final.
the other three will be from Monaghan/Dublin/Derry/Armagh/Donegal/Louth/Cork/Kildare/Meath/Cavan
if Westmeath get to the Leinster final it will be four from Monaghan/Dublin/Derry/Armagh/Donegal/Louth/Cork/Kildare/Meath/Cavan

This weekend with all the games on will clarify things further.

[twohands!!!]

Why lads do you make this hard, nobody beating Dublin in Leinster, and the same for Kerry in Munster. So work out your seedings from there.

This doesn't really clear up all that much but if you assume Dublin win Leinster and Kerry win Munster

Seeds 1 - Dublin and Kerry
Seeds 2 - one of Offaly/Meath/Westmeath/Louth and one of Clare/Limerick

2 first seeds and 2 2nd seeds from this 4 lines.
Derry/Monaghan
Down/Donegal/Cavan/Armagh
Roscommon/Galway
Sligo/New York

The third seed situation is
Mayo
the loser of Roscommon/Galway
Tyrone
one from Monaghan/Derry

The fourth seed situation is a bit more clear but still a lot to be decided.
Westmeath will take one of the spots if they don't get to the Leinster final.
the other three will be from Armagh/Donegal/Louth/Cork/Kildare/Meath/Cavan
if Westmeath get to the Leinster final it will be four from Armagh/Donegal/Louth/Cork/Kildare/Meath/Cavan

[blanketattack]

https://www.rte.ie/sport/football/2023/0417/1377423-all-ireland-football-championship-permutations-week-2/

Pot 3

Mayo

Loser of Roscommon/Galway

Tyrone

12th ranked team

Pot 4

13th ranked team

14th ranked team

15th ranked team

16th ranked team

The top 16-ranked teams from the league were: 1. Mayo, 2. Galway, 3. Roscommon, 4. Tyrone, 5. Kerry, 6. Monaghan, 7. Dublin, 8. Derry, 9. Armagh, 10. Donegal, 11. Louth, 12. Cork, 13. Kildare, 14. Meath, 15. Cavan, 16. Fermanagh

A lot of that is out of date already...

Yeah, the last 3rd seed will be the loser of Monaghan v Derry bar Tipp beating Kerry, which would put Kerry in as the final 3rd seed instead.

I think if Kildare (overcome Laois) and bet Dublin (unlikely as it may seem), and Derry were to lose to Monaghan, that would make Dublin a potential third seed, too.

If Dublin don't make the Leinster final, I can't see how they can be anything but 4th seeds?
Mayo, Tyrone, the loser of the Galway/Roscommon and the loser of Derry/Monaghan all ahead of Dublin in league placings so taking the 3rd seed spots.
The loser of Derry/Monaghan would even drop to 4th seed if Tipp beat Kerry.

Despite the div 2 final, Derry placed above Dublin in league rankings so would take 3rd seed ahead of Dublin if it came to it.

[onefineday]

The one and only point to the non div 1 league finals was to rank teams for all Ireland series, this Dublin are ranked ahead of Derry and Cavan ahead of Fermanagh. Similarly, mayo ahead of Galway, but if Galway had won, they would have been ranked ahead of mayo.

[onefineday]

Not sure if it's been mentioned, but the obvious changed needed here is to rank provincial winners as seed 1, whilst allowing provincial final losers to progress to All Ireland series, seeding should be based entirely on league placings for non provincial winners.
There might even be an argument for seeding provincial winners based on league placings too.
Could be groups like this:
Seed 1, seed 16, seed 12, seed 8 all in one group  and so on.
That would really make league placings worth fighting for and massively ramp up the connection between league and championship.
The big negative would be that the gaa would miss out on a great opportunity to draw balls from bowls and we all know how they like be to at that!!!

[Dreadnought]

https://www.rte.ie/sport/football/2023/0417/1377423-all-ireland-football-championship-permutations-week-2/

Pot 3

Mayo

Loser of Roscommon/Galway

Tyrone

12th ranked team

Pot 4

13th ranked team

14th ranked team

15th ranked team

16th ranked team

The top 16-ranked teams from the league were: 1. Mayo, 2. Galway, 3. Roscommon, 4. Tyrone, 5. Kerry, 6. Monaghan, 7. Dublin, 8. Derry, 9. Armagh, 10. Donegal, 11. Louth, 12. Cork, 13. Kildare, 14. Meath, 15. Cavan, 16. Fermanagh

A lot of that is out of date already...

Yeah, the last 3rd seed will be the loser of Monaghan v Derry bar Tipp beating Kerry, which would put Kerry in as the final 3rd seed instead.

I think if Kildare (overcome Laois) and bet Dublin (unlikely as it may seem), and Derry were to lose to Monaghan, that would make Dublin a potential third seed, too.

If Dublin don't make the Leinster final, I can't see how they can be anything but 4th seeds?
Mayo, Tyrone, the loser of the Galway/Roscommon and the loser of Derry/Monaghan all ahead of Dublin in league placings so taking the 3rd seed spots.
The loser of Derry/Monaghan would even drop to 4th seed if Tipp beat Kerry.

Despite the div 2 final, Derry placed above Dublin in league rankings so would take 3rd seed ahead of Dublin if it came to it.

That's not the way it works. The league final winner places higher, so Dublin above Derry in this case

[Dreadnought]

Not sure if it's been mentioned, but the obvious changed needed here is to rank provincial winners as seed 1, whilst allowing provincial final losers to progress to All Ireland series, seeding should be based entirely on league placings for non provincial winners.
There might even be an argument for seeding provincial winners based on league placings too.
Could be groups like this:
Seed 1, seed 16, seed 12, seed 8 all in one group  and so on.
That would really make league placings worth fighting for and massively ramp up the connection between league and championship.
The big negative would be that the gaa would miss out on a great opportunity to draw balls from bowls and we all know how they like be to at that!!!

Can't agree with this. It makes no sense to not seed the provincial finalists too. It is Championship, yet you want to use seeding from 2 months before than the final which is that week and has been based on actual Championship results? You're overly rewarding teams for doing fine in league, but getting knocked out early in provincials. The League is only used to fill up the last 7 positions which have not been filled by Championship, so they get the last seedings. No way they should be getting higher than actual championship performances when it's a fall back to fill positions, not the main driver.

Also, when the final pairings are set, this then allows them to do the draw as they know then that the 1st and 2nd seeds will be from the finalists, and can draw the other 8 3rd and 4th seeds as they'll be known. It doesn't have to wait until the final results are known to then apply your seeding logic

[RedHand88]

Not sure if it's been mentioned, but the obvious changed needed here is to rank provincial winners as seed 1, whilst allowing provincial final losers to progress to All Ireland series, seeding should be based entirely on league placings for non provincial winners.
There might even be an argument for seeding provincial winners based on league placings too.
Could be groups like this:
Seed 1, seed 16, seed 12, seed 8 all in one group  and so on.
That would really make league placings worth fighting for and massively ramp up the connection between league and championship.
The big negative would be that the gaa would miss out on a great opportunity to draw balls from bowls and we all know how they like be to at that!!!

Can't agree with this. It makes no sense to not seed the provincial finalists too. It is Championship, yet you want to use seeding from 2 months before than the final which is that week and has been based on actual Championship results? You're overly rewarding teams for doing fine in league, but getting knocked out early in provincials. The League is only used to fill up the last 7 positions which have not been filled by Championship, so they get the last seedings. No way they should be getting higher than actual championship performances when it's a fall back to fill positions, not the main driver.

Also, when the final pairings are set, this then allows them to do the draw as they know then that the 1st and 2nd seeds will be from the finalists, and can draw the other 8 3rd and 4th seeds as they'll be known. It doesn't have to wait until the final results are known to then apply your seeding logic

It does when one of them will be either Sligo or New York.

[APM]

The provincial championships need to be seeded also for the current system to work.  Connacht allowing a system where the three strongest teams are on one side of the draw is nuts and just means that the final will be a damp squib. It means a team outside the top 20 is guaranteed a place in the super 16s and means that two of the strongest teams in the country (based on league standings) go into the group stages as a lower seed.   

For the sake of the integrity of the provinces alone (never mind the Super 16s), the provincial championships should be seeded.   Obviously this is more important in Munster, Connacht and to a lesser extent Leinster. 

[seafoid]

The provincial championships need to be seeded also for the current system to work.  Connacht allowing a system where the three strongest teams are on one side of the draw is nuts and just means that the final will be a damp squib. It means a team outside the top 20 is guaranteed a place in the super 16s and means that two of the strongest teams in the country (based on league standings) go into the group stages as a lower seed.   

For the sake of the integrity of the provinces alone (never mind the Super 16s), the provincial championships should be seeded.   Obviously this is more important in Munster, Connacht and to a lesser extent Leinster.

There was a lack of joined up thinking wrt this year. I presume it will be fixed before next season.

[Dreadnought]

Not sure if it's been mentioned, but the obvious changed needed here is to rank provincial winners as seed 1, whilst allowing provincial final losers to progress to All Ireland series, seeding should be based entirely on league placings for non provincial winners.
There might even be an argument for seeding provincial winners based on league placings too.
Could be groups like this:
Seed 1, seed 16, seed 12, seed 8 all in one group  and so on.
That would really make league placings worth fighting for and massively ramp up the connection between league and championship.
The big negative would be that the gaa would miss out on a great opportunity to draw balls from bowls and we all know how they like be to at that!!!

Can't agree with this. It makes no sense to not seed the provincial finalists too. It is Championship, yet you want to use seeding from 2 months before than the final which is that week and has been based on actual Championship results? You're overly rewarding teams for doing fine in league, but getting knocked out early in provincials. The League is only used to fill up the last 7 positions which have not been filled by Championship, so they get the last seedings. No way they should be getting higher than actual championship performances when it's a fall back to fill positions, not the main driver.

Also, when the final pairings are set, this then allows them to do the draw as they know then that the 1st and 2nd seeds will be from the finalists, and can draw the other 8 3rd and 4th seeds as they'll be known. It doesn't have to wait until the final results are known to then apply your seeding logic

It does when one of them will be either Sligo or New York.

And there's a very easy fix for that. Seed the provincial draws (for the very rare occasion is works like this in Connacht). Taking away the rewarding of Championship form is hardly the answer

[Dreadnought]

The provincial championships need to be seeded also for the current system to work.  Connacht allowing a system where the three strongest teams are on one side of the draw is nuts and just means that the final will be a damp squib. It means a team outside the top 20 is guaranteed a place in the super 16s and means that two of the strongest teams in the country (based on league standings) go into the group stages as a lower seed.   

For the sake of the integrity of the provinces alone (never mind the Super 16s), the provincial championships should be seeded.   Obviously this is more important in Munster, Connacht and to a lesser extent Leinster.

That's it exactly. The easier fix is already there. There's enough teams in each province in the top 2 divisions, that if seeded and if a D3/4 team makes it through, they'll have had to beat at least one of those teams, thereby earning the right to be up there.

[RedHand88]

Not sure if it's been mentioned, but the obvious changed needed here is to rank provincial winners as seed 1, whilst allowing provincial final losers to progress to All Ireland series, seeding should be based entirely on league placings for non provincial winners.
There might even be an argument for seeding provincial winners based on league placings too.
Could be groups like this:
Seed 1, seed 16, seed 12, seed 8 all in one group  and so on.
That would really make league placings worth fighting for and massively ramp up the connection between league and championship.
The big negative would be that the gaa would miss out on a great opportunity to draw balls from bowls and we all know how they like be to at that!!!

Can't agree with this. It makes no sense to not seed the provincial finalists too. It is Championship, yet you want to use seeding from 2 months before than the final which is that week and has been based on actual Championship results? You're overly rewarding teams for doing fine in league, but getting knocked out early in provincials. The League is only used to fill up the last 7 positions which have not been filled by Championship, so they get the last seedings. No way they should be getting higher than actual championship performances when it's a fall back to fill positions, not the main driver.

Also, when the final pairings are set, this then allows them to do the draw as they know then that the 1st and 2nd seeds will be from the finalists, and can draw the other 8 3rd and 4th seeds as they'll be known. It doesn't have to wait until the final results are known to then apply your seeding logic

It does when one of them will be either Sligo or New York.

And there's a very easy fix for that. Seed the provincial draws (for the very rare occasion is works like this in Connacht). Taking away the rewarding of Championship form is hardly the answer

That's a fair point too.

Edit - although, does beating Leitrim and Sligo equate championship form (NY)? Or beating London and New York?  (Sligo)

[Dreadnought]

Not sure if it's been mentioned, but the obvious changed needed here is to rank provincial winners as seed 1, whilst allowing provincial final losers to progress to All Ireland series, seeding should be based entirely on league placings for non provincial winners.
There might even be an argument for seeding provincial winners based on league placings too.
Could be groups like this:
Seed 1, seed 16, seed 12, seed 8 all in one group  and so on.
That would really make league placings worth fighting for and massively ramp up the connection between league and championship.
The big negative would be that the gaa would miss out on a great opportunity to draw balls from bowls and we all know how they like be to at that!!!

Can't agree with this. It makes no sense to not seed the provincial finalists too. It is Championship, yet you want to use seeding from 2 months before than the final which is that week and has been based on actual Championship results? You're overly rewarding teams for doing fine in league, but getting knocked out early in provincials. The League is only used to fill up the last 7 positions which have not been filled by Championship, so they get the last seedings. No way they should be getting higher than actual championship performances when it's a fall back to fill positions, not the main driver.

Also, when the final pairings are set, this then allows them to do the draw as they know then that the 1st and 2nd seeds will be from the finalists, and can draw the other 8 3rd and 4th seeds as they'll be known. It doesn't have to wait until the final results are known to then apply your seeding logic

It does when one of them will be either Sligo or New York.

And there's a very easy fix for that. Seed the provincial draws (for the very rare occasion is works like this in Connacht). Taking away the rewarding of Championship form is hardly the answer

That's a fair point too.

Edit - although, does beating Leitrim and Sligo equate championship form (NY)? Or beating London and New York?  (Sligo)

I agree in this case it doesn't. It's a small failure of the way they did this, that they didn't stipulate that the provincials are seeded, in order to prevent likes of this. Now if Sligo had come through and beaten one of Mayo, Roscommon, or Galway after they were seeded on that side, then they would fully deserve it. This is the first real year of this format. There will be teething issues. No harm in them making some tweaks.

[seafoid]

When 3 of the teams in Connacht are in Division 1 it doesn't make sense not to seed