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Why are people so animated about the cost? Genuine question. Do you believe that by not building it the money will somehow be spent on some other part of government that will deliver some top class service or something? What is it about the cost specifically that people care about? 

Because the same thing that happened in Cork is going to happen except it's going to be across all of Ulster GAA as opposed to just one county when it comes to the paying of it. It's going to hoover up a huge percentage of the available money while being built and for a good while after, especially if it isn't able to make profit as a going concern. I think there is a serious risk of cutbacks and restrictions on spending across every absolutely every aspect of Ulster GAA for a good number of years.

Derry v Monaghan - Derry
Dublin v Roscommon - Dublin
Kerry v Mayo - Kerry
Tyrone v Galway - Tyrone

Donegal v Fermanagh - Donegal
Cork v Cavan - Cavan
Meath v Louth - Louth
Kildare v Armagh - Armagh

Antrim v Down - Down
Limerick v Sligo - Sligo
Offaly v Clare - Clare
Wicklow v Westmeath - Westmeath

Waterford v Longford - Longford
Laois v Carlow - Laois
London v Tipperary - Tipperary
Leitrim v Wexford - Leitrim

Would the league be even more important if  after provincial champs the seeding went by league standings.

It would obviously be more important but the reality is there is no way this will ever happen while the provincial councils have such a massive chunk of votes.

I think making is so that the provincial losers weren't the 2nd seeds would improve things some small bit.

Abbey winning 16-3 in the mclarnon. They're supposed to be backboned by four masters players so are probably very strong.

Are the schools in the 26, kids a year older?

Nope - same ages.

There used to be a 6 month difference years back that favoured Ulster (all nine from what I recall/not just the six)

Mayo v Dublin - Dublin
Monaghan v Kerry - Kerry
Roscommon v Galway - Galway
Derry v Tyrone - Derry

Armagh v Meath - Armagh
Fermanagh v Kildare - Fermanagh
Louth v Cork - Louth
Cavan v Donegal - Donegal

Down v Limerick - Down
Antrim v Offaly - Antrim
Sligo v Wicklow - Sligo
Westmeath v Clare - Westmeath

Carlow v Waterford - Carlow
Wexford v Laois - Wexford
Leitrim v London - Leitrim
Longford v Tipperary - Longford

Rd 1 27/28 January


Kerry v Derry - Kerry
Dublin v Monaghan - Dublin
Galway v Mayo - Galway
Tyrone v Roscommon - Tyrone

Meath v Fermanagh - Meath
Kildare v Cavan - Kildare
Armagh v Louth - Armagh
Donegal v Cork - Donegal

Limerick v Antrim - Limerick
Clare v Sligo - Clare
Offaly v Westmeath - Westmeath
Wicklow v Down - Down

Laois v Longford - Longford
Tipperary v Carlow - Tipperary
London v Wexford - London
Waterford v Leitrim - Leitrim

Does anyone know why PUC's financial projections didn't work out ?

The basic thing is that they adopted a yerra build it, everything will be grand attitude.
They decided we're building a new stadium and they worked backwards to try and fit the economic facts to make it make sense.They had to submit their business plan to the Dept of Finance three times after the first two efforts were rejected as inadequate and the version I heard that there was political involvement so that the third version wasn't rejected. Basically the department said their forecasts on everything positive were wildly over-optimistic in terms of corporate tickets/number of matches/crowds at matches/profits from concerts and that costs were under-estimated. There was talk at one point that the direct government chunk of €30m was not going to be handed over. All this talk obviously reached the ears of someone in the EU as they did a review of this but the EU weren't able to prove anything.
Ironically in one version of their business plan they had budgeted for receiving €150k for naming rights to the stadium in 2017 as part of their projected budget.The fact that it has taken them until now to get this deal done should provide an insight in the competence levels.
So the original forecasts over-estimated revenue and underestimated costs.
Things were made worse by the fact that the construction budget went wildly over budget.
This is based on stuff I've read over the years in the papers and Phoenix as well as stuff I've heard.
The tragic thing is that there seems to be a lot of similarities between what went on with PuC and what's gone/going on with the Casement Park. The big difference is that the Casement project seems to have been thrown a life ring with the Euros situation. However if anything happens to that life ring I really can't see Casement not being Puc 2.0
 

Bigger gap in junior hurling than football going by the first half here

Part of the issue is that Cork send the winners of their 3rd and 5th tier hurling competitions to compete in the Munster/All-Ireland championships same as they do with the football.

This is all so the 2nd tier clubs can call themselves senior, and the 3rd and 4th tier clubs can call themselves intermediate.

https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/monaghan-blow-as-star-karl-gallaghers-two-year-afl-deal-with-the-adelaide-crows-is-confirmed/

Gallagher signs a two year rookie contract. A loss for Monaghan.

I'm off for a lie-down.

Kilmacud 2nd best all over the pitch in that half. Be very surprised if Glen don't see this out.

Elbow makes contact with the chin there - be lucky if he avoids a red

Perfect day for off-the-ball shenanigans

Tg4 very innovative with the first live-action spot the ball competition.

More on the current state of play in Cork with Pairc Ui Chaoimh.

Very tough to shake the notion tha the odds are high Casement has a good chance of turning out similarly.

The issue for the GAA is that if it does turn out similar it will likely affect all of the Ulster counties negatively instead of just one county as in Cork's case.

Fogarty Forum: Páirc Uí Chaoimh strife haunts Cork
Cork GAA do a decent job of acting like a highly functional organisation but so many of their waking hours are occupied with this huge debt.
Fogarty Forum: Páirc Uí Chaoimh strife haunts Cork

TUE, 12 DEC, 2023 - 07:20
JOHN FOGARTY

It is only when you catalogue the inconveniences the redevelopment of Páirc Uí Chaoimh and servicing its debt has caused Cork teams that the full picture forms.

We'll get to the €30 million-plus albatross that is going to hang around the neck of the sport in the county for the next quarter of a century in a minute. For now, let's list how it has otherwise discommoded players and supporters.

In February 2019, less than two years after the stadium's reopening, the venue's playing surface cut up so badly during a league double-header that it was closed for the remainder of the league. Urgent work on it meant Cork's Super 8 game against Roscommon that July, which they lost, was moved to Páirc Uí Rinn.

Last year, Cork's hurlers were forced to play their Munster SHC round-robin game against Clare in Thurles, a game they lost, because of Ed Sheeran concerts in Páirc Uí Chaoimh. Following weeks of brinksmanship between the Cork players, board and Munster GAA who announced the game would be staged in Killarney, the provincial SFC semi-final against Kerry, which was also pushed out of the Ballintemple stadium because of the gigs, was played in Páirc Uí Rinn.

Next year, Cork's senior footballers will have to play their Sam Maguire/Tailteann Cup round-robin game in Páirc Uí Rinn as the playing surface will not be ready following the Bruce Springsteen concert.
Cork also requested their Munster SHC game against Limerick be arranged for a Saturday evening to allow for the preparations ahead of that May 16 gig, which may have been a contributory factor to the game being shown on GAAGO.

Cork GAA do a decent job of acting like a highly functional organisation and in arranging the 14,000-plus games a year they certainly are. Nevertheless, so many of their waking hours are occupied with this debt, a burden that boots down the road any hope of establishing a long overdue centre of excellence.

They, at least former county board leaders, can't say they weren't warned. Information obtained by the "Irish Examiner" reveals the business plan and Cost Benefit Analysis commissioned by the county board for the stadium to obtain its €30m grant from the Government were dismissed by the then Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport on two occasions.

In March 2015, the department wrote to the Cork County Board stating the CBA "unfortunately falls a good deal short of what of what is required of a CBA as per the Public Spending Code (PSC)".

Three months later, updated versions of the two documents were submitted but again rejected "as "it is not a recognisable cost benefit analysis" and "in conjunction with the lack of other elements that comprise a Business Case, cannot be considered to be in compliance with the Public Spending Code".

The department stated they were concerned about the board's optimism regarding demand projections for match attendances, concert attendances, conference usage and tourism benefits attached to the new stadium.

In August, accompanied by a letter from then GAA director general Páraic Duffy, a new business plan and CBA was issued and approved later that year. Cork stated they were "strictly managing costs" and claimed they could earn €500,000 per annum in naming rights.

Over six years after reopening and that hasn't been realised and there is no question Páirc Ui Chaoimh has been underutilised. It should be hosting more Munster SHC finals. The most modern of all 20,000-plus capacity stadiums in the country never mind the province, there is stark contrast between it and the fading allure of FBD Semple Stadium and TUS Gaelic Grounds.

Cork canvassed intensely but failed to bring the event to the venue this past year. Convincing the GAA to bring All-Ireland quarter-finals there has also proven a challenge, the last without crowd restrictions being the 2018 Clare-Wexford game.

Páirc Uí Chaoimh has become a bogeyman story in the GAA, a constant reminder to national GAA officials of what can happen when counties produce financial projections that are "overly ambitious", as GAA director general Tom Ryan said of Páirc Uí Chaoimh in 2019.

Two years earlier, Cork were saying otherwise about themselves when they sought the €30m Government funding. "CCB has a track record of prudent financial management of their affairs and is confident of being able to adequately manage both the funding and expenditure aspects of the project, as well as its ongoing operation."

As Cork GAA chief executive Kevin O'Donovan, who was appointed in December 2018, said in September, the county hopes to be free of its stadium debt by 2048, 31 years after it reopened following the redevelopment.

Ahead of convention this evening, he returned from the One Cork Worldwide roadshow in the US last week as efforts to fundraise among the diaspora are stepped up. The monies will go towards teams but you can't help feeling it wouldn't be so necessary if Cork weren't mortgaged to their necks.

Cork GAA facing €5 million cashflow crisis unless Páirc operations 'massively' improve
Cork secretary Kevin O'Donovan described the county's cash flow problem as 'stark'.


TUE, 12 DEC, 2023 - 22:15
EOGHAN CORMICAN

Unless there is a "massive improvement" in the operation of Páirc Uí Chaoimh, Cork GAA is facing a €5 million cashflow crisis over the next five years.

At the Cork convention on Tuesday evening, Freemount delegate John O'Flynn drew attention to the "hidden liability" of advance income totalling €4.8m.

O'Flynn explained that the figure relates primarily to Páirc Uí Chaoimh premium level seat sales over the past five years, money which has already been received and spent.

"That well is going to run dry very shortly because there aren't that many premium seats left (for sale). Our cashflow is going to dry up over the next five years," O'Flynn warned.

The Freemount delegate said the cashflow outlook is very worrying given the redeveloped Páirc Uí Chaoimh has turned a profit in only one year, 2022, and that owed to five concerts being staged at the venue.

"We have a stadium that is losing money," O'Flynn said of Páirc Uí Chaoimh's €2.688m loss in 2023.

"For all the years we have got stadium accounts, the stadium has lost money every single year except in 2022 when we had five concerts. I hope we have five concerts in the future, but that is unlikely.

"So we are really challenged for the stadium to even break even. The reality is that if we break even over the next five years, we are going to have a cash shortfall of about €4.8 million because we have already got that cash and it has already been spent.

"Until we sell Kilbarry, we are not going to reduce stadium debt (€31m) and we understand that. But there is a bigger issue coming down the track, it's the cashflow for the next four or five years.

"I would be really concerned that unless there is a massive improvement in the operation of the stadium or huge income from GAA activity, then we are going to struggle to meet that cash requirement over the next five years." There was no disputing of O'Flynn's worrying forecast from the executive top table.

Cork county board treasurer Diarmuid Gowan said that with only one concert in the pipeline for next year, it will make 2024 "very challenging".

Cork secretary Kevin O'Donovan described the county's cash flow problem as "stark".

He said concerts are "windfall" events and that the stadium needs to reach a "steady-state position" where it is not reliant on concerts to turn a profit.

O'Donovan remarked that soccer games at Páirc Uí Chaoimh are not off the table going forward.

"It is a very dangerous model for us to base a business plan on three concerts a year, which was done previously. They are windfalls. They come, they go.

"In terms of GAA activity, you know the challenges we face in getting major games to this stadium. All we hear is negativity. That is why we have to continue to explore other sports. Expect a debate on soccer coming too in the future. We have to consider those in the context of the stark financial picture we are in.

"Our discussion every day is cashflow, rather than profit and loss. Commercial partnerships could bring in €500,000 a year to this stadium in the very near future. We have two deals signed, we have another almost signed."

In his parting speech, outgoing county board chairman Marc Sheehan said the reticence of counties to travel to Páirc Uí Chaoimh needs to dissipate in 2024 and beyond.

"Let us not understate the significance of Páirc Uí Chaoimh. It remains the most modern GAA venue in Ireland despite seemingly incessant sniping from some quarters.

"Perhaps if some of the energy dispensed by others outside of the county with criticism of our stadium was channeled more meaningfully within their own units, it might result in better infrastructural outcomes for other units," said Sheehan.