The ulster rugby trial

[tyssam5]

I'll repost this as I would be interested to hear what those who have already decided that Jackson is guilty think......

From what I've read it sounds like nothing was said when the girl came back to Jackson's room until the 3rd fella came in and she got up and said "how many times does a girl have to say no?". The girl said she went numb and was apparently frozen with fear which is understandable if her version is true but is it possible that Jackson could have interpreted it as consensual if he began kissing her and she didn't try to stop him or seem to him to be objecting in any way?


The evidence of the girl who walked into the room should be vital if she's a reliable witness, in determining whether the girl seemed to be a willing participant or not?

Every question you ask is victim blaming to some but I think it's logical and reasonable to ask why she could say no when there were 3 men there but was too scared to say no when it was just Jackson. She said no the first time she was in the room but not the second(unless she did and it wasn't reported). Why did she feel too scared to do so - was he physically aggressive to her at that stage? These are questions I'd like to hear answered before Id make up my mind if I was a juror. Maybe they were answered but not reported.

BUT as I said in another post, Jackson and the girl had consentually kissed in the bedroom, Paddy went to take it further and was rebuked by the girl who then went downstairs. She put on her shoes, about to leave, but realising she's left her bag in the bedroom went up to get it with Jackson following her and forcing herself upon her.

This is obviously her version of events, but Paddy may be caught out if the first part is true and she did knock him back and leave the room. What made Paddy think she'd changed her mind?

On the other hand Jackson takes no for an answer the first time and she leaves the room - so he could argue if he was intent on rape or not taking no for an answer why would he not have done it the first time?

[nrico2006]

Additionally, many a time a fella gets shot down but tries his luck again, uses a bit of chat and changes the situation. 

[Rois]

Additionally, many a time a fella gets shot down but tries his luck again, uses a bit of chat and changes the situation.

Is this actually how guys think if a girl shoots you down? Ah sure give it another go, you can change her mind, she may say no at the start but doesn't really mean it, you can persuade her to have sex with you, and this happens "many a time". Not in my experience! Repeated propositions/attempts would make me incredibly uncomfortable and uneasy.

[Milltown Row2]

Additionally, many a time a fella gets shot down but tries his luck again, uses a bit of chat and changes the situation.

Is this actually how guys think if a girl shoots you down? Ah sure give it another go, you can change her mind, she may say no at the start but doesn't really mean it, you can persuade her to have sex with you, and this happens "many a time". Not in my experience! Repeated propositions/attempts would make me incredibly uncomfortable and uneasy.

He wasnt shot down the first time, but the second time according to her he was, as Rois has said it would be uncomfortable and uneasy, and you'd leave..

The problem from her is convincing a jury (mainly males) that she didnt leave and according to her it was because she had to go upstairs to get a bag, then he came in, raped her, then another man came in and raped her also, while not making a noise, a cry for help, even not have any scratch marks on either person, plus the girl that came in also witnessed a sex act but no rape, I'm basing the last part on that fact that its the defence that has brought her in as a witness!

[tonto1888]

Additionally, many a time a fella gets shot down but tries his luck again, uses a bit of chat and changes the situation.

Is this actually how guys think if a girl shoots you down? Ah sure give it another go, you can change her mind, she may say no at the start but doesn't really mean it, you can persuade her to have sex with you, and this happens "many a time". Not in my experience! Repeated propositions/attempts would make me incredibly uncomfortable and uneasy.

Cant speak for all guys but personally if Im told no once then I leave it

[Milltown Row2]

Additionally, many a time a fella gets shot down but tries his luck again, uses a bit of chat and changes the situation.

Is this actually how guys think if a girl shoots you down? Ah sure give it another go, you can change her mind, she may say no at the start but doesn't really mean it, you can persuade her to have sex with you, and this happens "many a time". Not in my experience! Repeated propositions/attempts would make me incredibly uncomfortable and uneasy.

Cant speak for all guys but personally if Im told no once then I leave it

Unless its the wife!!

[seafoid]

Additionally, many a time a fella gets shot down but tries his luck again, uses a bit of chat and changes the situation.

Is this actually how guys think if a girl shoots you down? Ah sure give it another go, you can change her mind, she may say no at the start but doesn't really mean it, you can persuade her to have sex with you, and this happens "many a time". Not in my experience! Repeated propositions/attempts would make me incredibly uncomfortable and uneasy.

Margaret Atwood's line: "Men are afraid women will laugh at them. Women are afraid men will kill them." 

[Orior]

Additionally, many a time a fella gets shot down but tries his luck again, uses a bit of chat and changes the situation.

Is this actually how guys think if a girl shoots you down? Ah sure give it another go, you can change her mind, she may say no at the start but doesn't really mean it, you can persuade her to have sex with you, and this happens "many a time". Not in my experience! Repeated propositions/attempts would make me incredibly uncomfortable and uneasy.

Margaret Atwood's line: "Men are afraid women will laugh at them. Women are afraid men will kill them."

Very true.

[Hound]

Additionally, many a time a fella gets shot down but tries his luck again, uses a bit of chat and changes the situation.

Is this actually how guys think if a girl shoots you down? Ah sure give it another go, you can change her mind, she may say no at the start but doesn't really mean it, you can persuade her to have sex with you, and this happens "many a time". Not in my experience! Repeated propositions/attempts would make me incredibly uncomfortable and uneasy.

He wasnt shot down the first time, but the second time according to her he was, as Rois has said it would be uncomfortable and uneasy, and you'd leave..

The problem from her is convincing a jury (mainly males) that she didnt leave and according to her it was because she had to go upstairs to get a bag, then he came in, raped her, then another man came in and raped her also, while not making a noise, a cry for help, even not have any scratch marks on either person, plus the girl that came in also witnessed a sex act but no rape, I'm basing the last part on that fact that its the defence that has brought her in as a witness!

Yeah, it's the alleged numbness that I can't understand. Because I've never been there. She never shouted nor screamed. She took off her own top and gave oral to Olding, but says both weren't consensual but she was too numb to object. But she did regain composure and walked out when Swinging Mick III came out and there was absolutely no question of any attempt to restrain her. 

It is understandable that rugby players can potentially be very intimidating if they have you in a compromising situation. But I would question if they knew what they were doing was even illegal. My view, at this stage, is they didn't really cop that, and that one scream would have ended it there and then. Not that ignorance or stupidity excuses wrongdoing.

There's been talk about all the adult content available on the internet. But its even "normal" TV that scenes like the above are on. From Entourage to Game of Thrones.  Or Ballers, where practically every episode has good looking girls looking to do all sorts with guys just because they're sportstars. Sure the lads even have their own international teammates who I'm sure have told stories in the lockerroom with a very similar tone to the text messages in the case.

[Avondhu star]

Additionally, many a time a fella gets shot down but tries his luck again, uses a bit of chat and changes the situation.

Is this actually how guys think if a girl shoots you down? Ah sure give it another go, you can change her mind, she may say no at the start but doesn't really mean it, you can persuade her to have sex with you, and this happens "many a time". Not in my experience! Repeated propositions/attempts would make me incredibly uncomfortable and uneasy.

Cant speak for all guys but personally if Im told no once then I leave it

Ah yeah. You're fûcking perfect

[Jim_Murphy_74]

There's been talk about all the adult content available on the internet

I have no comment on trial itself until we see how it pans out.

But I think that all of us should be tuned into above issue though.  We have a generation of kids growing up on hardcore stuff from the internet.  This isn't akin to anything I knew in my youth (skin mags and blue movies as they were referred to back then).  Also kids are seeing the porn first and gaining sexual experience after.   Expectation are being set by this stuff which both pressurising and confusing kids.

I spoke about this with some German colleagues at work.  I was asking about these "safe zones" in German cities for New Years.  I expected to hear about immigrants and culture clashes.  However they said that these "safe zones" are common now at rock concerts and beer festivals.  They said young German men expect the type of stuff we are hearing about in the current court case and lack an understanding about boundaries.

I don't think you can stop kids looking at this stuff but teenagers need to be educated about the difference between fantasy and reality.  I think it's important to have teenagers associate sex with intimacy and respect but maybe that's a battle that is already lost.

/Jim.

[north_antrim_hound]

There's been talk about all the adult content available on the internet

I have no comment on trial itself until we see how it pans out.

But I think that all of us should be tuned into above issue though.  We have a generation of kids growing up on hardcore stuff from the internet.  This isn't akin to anything I knew in my youth (skin mags and blue movies as they were referred to back then).  Also kids are seeing the porn first and gaining sexual experience after.   Expectation are being set by this stuff which both pressurising and confusing kids.

I spoke about this with some German colleagues at work.  I was asking about these "safe zones" in German cities for New Years.  I expected to hear about immigrants and culture clashes.  However they said that these "safe zones" are common now at rock concerts and beer festivals.  They said young German men expect the type of stuff we are hearing about in the current court case and lack an understanding about boundaries.

I don't think you can stop kids looking at this stuff but teenagers need to be educated about the difference between fantasy and reality.  I think it's important to have teenagers associate sex with intimacy and respect but maybe that's a battle that is already lost.

/Jim.

Good point but kids should be taught these things at home.
I think most young people know the difference between consent and rape
It's when intoxication enters the fray that lot of these boundaries get fuzzy.

[gallsman]

He wasnt shot down the first time, but the second time according to her he was

Her allegation is that she willingly kissed Jackson the first time in his room but he tried to take her pants off and she said no.

[tonto1888]

Additionally, many a time a fella gets shot down but tries his luck again, uses a bit of chat and changes the situation.

Is this actually how guys think if a girl shoots you down? Ah sure give it another go, you can change her mind, she may say no at the start but doesn't really mean it, you can persuade her to have sex with you, and this happens "many a time". Not in my experience! Repeated propositions/attempts would make me incredibly uncomfortable and uneasy.

Cant speak for all guys but personally if Im told no once then I leave it

Ah yeah. You're fûcking perfect

far far from it mate

[Milltown Row2]

He wasnt shot down the first time, but the second time according to her he was

Her allegation is that she willingly kissed Jackson the first time in his room but he tried to take her pants off and she said no.

And thats just what it is, an allegation surely? There are a lot of facts in this case, and there are a lot of allegations, finding the truth isnt easy...