The ulster rugby trial

Started by caprea, February 01, 2018, 11:45:56 PM

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armaghniac

Quote from: Syferus on February 02, 2018, 08:41:56 PM
So many people here seem to start from a position of disbelieving the female victim of rape or sexual assault when the more natural position should be believing the victim. Victim blaming is such a massive part of rape culture and it needs to be constantly guarded against.

Innocent, until proved guilty beyond reasonable doubt, that is the principle civilised society has adopted for such things.
If at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

HiMucker

Quote from: Syferus on February 02, 2018, 05:47:10 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on February 02, 2018, 05:42:59 PM
Quote from: Syferus on February 02, 2018, 05:38:35 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 02, 2018, 05:32:21 PM
He's happier when attacking posters than dealing with the facts

From the lad who claims to have read the report and immediately goes and contradicts it that's a bit rich. You opened yourself to attack by trying to shovel baseless dirt on the victim.

The fact some people try to hide their disbelief of the victim behind legalise or petty insults highlights that some part of their lizard brain tells them they're in hot water on this issue. It goes without saying that victim-blaming is abhorant and many of those who support its continuation don't even realise that's what they're doing.
She's not a victim yet. She could have been a willing participant.

Explain why it's a court case, then. What does the woman get out of this added ordeal, one she was very reticent to even do at the time of the incident because of exactly your sort of reactions to it?
Syferus to be honest I would agree with a lot of the conclusions and points you have made regarding this.  From the evidence that I have read I think they are guilty as sin in my opinion.  But that is all it is, an opinion.  The jurors will have far more evidence, and for you to condemn other posters on here for having a different opinion, one that is fairly moderate in that the outcome could be very different, or that they want to wait until the conclusion of the  trial before making judgement, is sanctimonious in the extreme.  I made a comment that I found another posters statement embarrassing, however it would be one that I'm sure my own mother would come out with, and I would be embarrassed if she said it in public, but she is neither rancid, disgusting or any of the plethora of other hyperbolic adjectives your throwing around here at others.  You see everything in black and white, and right and wrong. The real world is much different.  You would do well to listen to other people's opinions and even if you dont agree, atleast try to understand where they might be coming from.

Main Street

#122
Some people remember from the news reports, the question about the woman waiting 2 days before going to the police, but they don't remember the answers given. They  will even ask here "why did she wait 2 days?" as if waiting 2 days implied something abnormal but they neglected to read and/or remember the woman's reply in court to that very question.
That's the tactic of the lawyer in asking the question, the question sticks in the head of those in the jury/members of public  who are predisposed  to doubt the woman's integrity/motivation.

Syf´s question  (What does the woman get out of this added ordeal?) was poorly answered by a poster asking another question, which has no bearing on this case. There's no evidence that the woman is concocting the allegation with malice.
The prosecution may not be able to prove the charges beyond reasonable doubt, but that does not imply false charges or a vindictive action by the woman.
The defense team obviously have paid attention, trying to portray the woman as being an opportunist, showing the woman in a poor light, one who would be motivated by dishonest motives,  but so far the woman has stood up well to that questioning.

trueblue1234

Unfortunately Syf has now turned this thread into more focus on him than what is actually being discussed. Him and Tony have a lot in common.
Grammar: the difference between knowing your shit

Tony Baloney

Quote from: trueblue1234 on February 02, 2018, 09:10:03 PM
Unfortunately Syf has now turned this thread into more focus on him than what is actually being discussed. Him and Tony have a lot in common.
Just this thread?!

Franko

Ruins so many decent threads with the same moralising shite.

straightred

Quote from: Orior on February 02, 2018, 08:55:35 PM
It's a very obvious tactic by the defence lawyers, trying to blacken the victims modus operandi. The rugby players are guilty but I just wish she had been a little more cautious in her night out. It would have a lot of trouble all round.

I dont know if they are guilty or not and hopefully the trial and jury get that right. What I do know is that a series of rotten txts were exchanged afterwards and that in itself is unbecoming of a professional sport person. The fact that a current irish captain then sees fit to support the authors of same txts from the gallery is just baffling. Its not too late to drop Best but i fear they won't. its a clear message from the IRFU to the alleged victim "we don't believe you". Not good enough

macdanger2

Quote from: HiMucker on February 02, 2018, 09:00:13 PM
Quote from: Syferus on February 02, 2018, 05:47:10 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on February 02, 2018, 05:42:59 PM
Quote from: Syferus on February 02, 2018, 05:38:35 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 02, 2018, 05:32:21 PM
He's happier when attacking posters than dealing with the facts

From the lad who claims to have read the report and immediately goes and contradicts it that's a bit rich. You opened yourself to attack by trying to shovel baseless dirt on the victim.

The fact some people try to hide their disbelief of the victim behind legalise or petty insults highlights that some part of their lizard brain tells them they're in hot water on this issue. It goes without saying that victim-blaming is abhorant and many of those who support its continuation don't even realise that's what they're doing.
She's not a victim yet. She could have been a willing participant.

Explain why it's a court case, then. What does the woman get out of this added ordeal, one she was very reticent to even do at the time of the incident because of exactly your sort of reactions to it?
Syferus to be honest I would agree with a lot of the conclusions and points you have made regarding this.  From the evidence that I have read I think they are guilty as sin in my opinion.  But that is all it is, an opinion.  The jurors will have far more evidence, and for you to condemn other posters on here for having a different opinion, one that is fairly moderate in that the outcome could be very different, or that they want to wait until the conclusion of the  trial before making judgement, is sanctimonious in the extreme.  I made a comment that I found another posters statement embarrassing, however it would be one that I'm sure my own mother would come out with, and I would be embarrassed if she said it in public, but she is neither rancid, disgusting or any of the plethora of other hyperbolic adjectives your throwing around here at others.  You see everything in black and white, and right and wrong. The real world is much different.  You would do well to listen to other people's opinions and even if you dont agree, atleast try to understand where they might be coming from.

Would largely agree with all of that

screenexile

Quote from: straightred on February 03, 2018, 12:17:01 AM
Quote from: Orior on February 02, 2018, 08:55:35 PM
It's a very obvious tactic by the defence lawyers, trying to blacken the victims modus operandi. The rugby players are guilty but I just wish she had been a little more cautious in her night out. It would have a lot of trouble all round.

I dont know if they are guilty or not and hopefully the trial and jury get that right. What I do know is that a series of rotten txts were exchanged afterwards and that in itself is unbecoming of a professional sport person. The fact that a current irish captain then sees fit to support the authors of same txts from the gallery is just baffling. Its not too late to drop Best but i fear they won't. its a clear message from the IRFU to the alleged victim "we don't believe you". Not good enough

Talk about the mother of all over reactions!! I doubt the reaction would have been half this were it not for social media.

Best and Henderson have done NOTHING wrong...

straightred

Quote from: screenexile on February 03, 2018, 12:22:28 AM
Quote from: straightred on February 03, 2018, 12:17:01 AM
Quote from: Orior on February 02, 2018, 08:55:35 PM
It's a very obvious tactic by the defence lawyers, trying to blacken the victims modus operandi. The rugby players are guilty but I just wish she had been a little more cautious in her night out. It would have a lot of trouble all round.

I dont know if they are guilty or not and hopefully the trial and jury get that right. What I do know is that a series of rotten txts were exchanged afterwards and that in itself is unbecoming of a professional sport person. The fact that a current irish captain then sees fit to support the authors of same txts from the gallery is just baffling. Its not too late to drop Best but i fear they won't. its a clear message from the IRFU to the alleged victim "we don't believe you". Not good enough

Talk about the mother of all over reactions!! I doubt the reaction would have been half this were it not for social media.

Best and Henderson have done NOTHING wrong...

I take it you don't have daughter(s). You might just see it a little different it you did. I'll leave it at that.

general_lee

This is taking the piss. The IRFU and Ulster did not hesitate in suspending the players upon their arrest back in June. The players are facing very serious charges but they are entitled to a fair hearing no matter how guilty they appear. People are reading too much into Best and Henderson's (misguided) attendance at court, as if somehow they're going to influence proceedings from the public gallery - the girl doesn't even know any rugby players anyway. The accused are pleading innocence and are entitled to that presumption until proven otherwise.

straightred

Quote from: general_lee on February 03, 2018, 12:26:15 AM
This is taking the piss. The IRFU and Ulster did not hesitate in suspending the players upon their arrest back in June. The players are facing very serious charges but they are entitled to a fair hearing no matter how guilty they appear. People are reading too much into Best and Henderson's (misguided) attendance at court, as if somehow they're going to influence proceedings from the public gallery - the girl doesn't even know any rugby players anyway. The accused are pleading innocence and are entitled to that presumption until proven otherwise.

Its far from taking the piss. Its not that long ago since rugby minded people closed ranks on a tragedy outside Annabelles night club in Dublin. At least some sort of justice was eventually distributed in that case.

There are parallels here. As far as I'm concerned far too many people don't see an issue with this. There is no way they should have been there - end of story. If you want to look at it from a pure sport perspective then you simply say that there's a game on saturday and they should have been preparing. If they wanted to support them they should have sent a txt.

The IRFU are normally such a professional well run organisation - they must be raging

Frank_The_Tank

Quote from: straightred on February 03, 2018, 12:24:18 AM
Quote from: screenexile on February 03, 2018, 12:22:28 AM
Quote from: straightred on February 03, 2018, 12:17:01 AM
Quote from: Orior on February 02, 2018, 08:55:35 PM
It's a very obvious tactic by the defence lawyers, trying to blacken the victims modus operandi. The rugby players are guilty but I just wish she had been a little more cautious in her night out. It would have a lot of trouble all round.

I dont know if they are guilty or not and hopefully the trial and jury get that right. What I do know is that a series of rotten txts were exchanged afterwards and that in itself is unbecoming of a professional sport person. The fact that a current irish captain then sees fit to support the authors of same txts from the gallery is just baffling. Its not too late to drop Best but i fear they won't. its a clear message from the IRFU to the alleged victim "we don't believe you". Not good enough

Talk about the mother of all over reactions!! I doubt the reaction would have been half this were it not for social media.

Best and Henderson have done NOTHING wrong...

I take it you don't have daughter(s). You might just see it a little different it you did. I'll leave it at that.

What has that got to do with this? What if you had a son accused of this?
Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience

Syferus

Frank you need to stop digging.

general_lee

Quote from: straightred on February 03, 2018, 12:33:30 AM
Quote from: general_lee on February 03, 2018, 12:26:15 AM
This is taking the piss. The IRFU and Ulster did not hesitate in suspending the players upon their arrest back in June. The players are facing very serious charges but they are entitled to a fair hearing no matter how guilty they appear. People are reading too much into Best and Henderson's (misguided) attendance at court, as if somehow they're going to influence proceedings from the public gallery - the girl doesn't even know any rugby players anyway. The accused are pleading innocence and are entitled to that presumption until proven otherwise.

Its far from taking the piss. Its not that long ago since rugby minded people closed ranks on a tragedy outside Annabelles night club in Dublin. At least some sort of justice was eventually distributed in that case.

There are parallels here. As far as I'm concerned far too many people don't see an issue with this. There is no way they should have been there - end of story. If you want to look at it from a pure sport perspective then you simply say that there's a game on saturday and they should have been preparing. If they wanted to support them they should have sent a txt.

The IRFU are normally such a professional well run organisation - they must be raging
It's taking the piss when you say the IRFU are sending a message that they don't believe the girl and are comparing it to something completely different