This story is getting huge now with Micheál Martin's revelation of (some of) the content of Sergeant Maurice McCabe's dossier. Penalty points are the least of it. The mishandling of investigations into the crimes of Jerry McGrath, who went on to murder Sylvia Roche-Kelly while on bail is the main issue (but not the only serious one, it seems) McCabe tried to highlight. He was thwarted at every turn
- by his superiors,
- by the Commissioner (who described his attempt to bring this to light as "disgusting"),
- by the Confidential Receiver, who instead of doing his job of taking and handling the information tried to influence him not to make it public,
- by Shatter, who read the dossier months ago, doesn't seem to have done anything about such serious revelations and instead accused McCabe, under Dáil privilege, of failing to co-operate with an investigation into the penalty points allegations, when he wasn't even approached to give evidence.
It's not surprising that there are skeletons in the Garda cupboard. Every police force has them. Indeed, I'll be amazed if there aren't hundreds more, given that the guards, unlike most police forces, have been operating without effective public supervision for most of their existence and given personal and anecdotal evidence of the types of both malevolence and incompetence of which some of their members are capable.
Martin has been quite clever (or to give the benefit of the doubt, even public-spirited) in giving this directly to the Taoiseach, as Cosgrave did to Jack Lynch at the time of the arms smuggling case. Kenny would seem to have no choice but to do the statesmanlike thing or lose all credibility.
As so often happens, it seems to be the attempt at a cover-up that leads to the undoing of the culpable. It's hard to see how Shatter and Callinan can survive in their jobs. Their downfall will be a good outcome if it leads to a proper system of overseeing the activities of the guards.
I'm staggered at the extent to which Alan Shatter seems willing to carry Martin Callinan's water. There's no doubt in my mind that some skulduggery took place towards GSOC from certain members of the guards. The hilariously inept planting of a story poo-poohing the whole affair with Paul Williams pretty much confirmed for me that someone had something to hide. But Shatter is effectively acting as a lightning rod for Callinan, to the extent that I can see Callinan surviving this (although a new government would surely demand his head, just as happened with Patrick McLaughlin and Edmund Garvey before him). What is in it for Shatter?
Quote from: deiseach on February 20, 2014, 03:25:33 PM
I'm staggered at the extent to which Alan Shatter seems willing to carry Martin Callinan's water. There's no doubt in my mind that some skulduggery took place towards GSOC from certain members of the guards. The hilariously inept planting of a story poo-poohing the whole affair with Paul Williams pretty much confirmed for me that someone had something to hide. But Shatter is effectively acting as a lightning rod for Callinan, to the extent that I can see Callinan surviving this (although a new government would surely demand his head, just as happened with Patrick McLaughlin and Edmund Garvey before him). What is in it for Shatter?
Hard to know. The cynical might infer that Callinan has his own dossier.
Quote from: Hardy on February 20, 2014, 03:27:46 PM
Quote from: deiseach on February 20, 2014, 03:25:33 PM
I'm staggered at the extent to which Alan Shatter seems willing to carry Martin Callinan's water. There's no doubt in my mind that some skulduggery took place towards GSOC from certain members of the guards. The hilariously inept planting of a story poo-poohing the whole affair with Paul Williams pretty much confirmed for me that someone had something to hide. But Shatter is effectively acting as a lightning rod for Callinan, to the extent that I can see Callinan surviving this (although a new government would surely demand his head, just as happened with Patrick McLaughlin and Edmund Garvey before him). What is in it for Shatter?
Hard to know. The cynical might infer that Callinan has his own dossier.
When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.
Haven't been following this very closely, but I was shocked by Callinan's performance in front of the PAC a couple of weeks ago - I think in the long run that will go down as his Pee Flynn moment - his arrogance and disregard for the committee was so blatant that it is actually scary to think what more could be going on within the force. A fish rots from the head down, and if Callinan is anyway indicative of senior officers' attitudes towards normal democratic oversight and the importance of holding institutions to account, then things could get very smelly indeed.
Is it any wonder that practically no one in institutional power in the history of the state has been held responsible in a court of law for their abuses of that power?
Rather ironic that TG4 had a programme on the Guilford 4 last night.
THe most chilling part was where Gerry Conlon at the end mentioned some English Chief judge saying after they were freed that it would have been better if they were hung rather than exposing the Justice system.
That attitude alive and well with Callinanshatter.
Scary scenario .... and also scary that slíbhín Micilín Martin is now the cool clean hero.
Quote from: Rossfan on February 21, 2014, 10:53:23 AM
Rather ironic that TG4 had a programme on the Guilford 4 last night.
THe most chilling part was where Gerry Conlon at the end mentioned some English Chief judge saying after they were freed that it would have been better if they were hung rather than exposing the Justice system.
That attitude alive and well with Callinanshatter.
Scary scenario .... and also scary that slíbhín Micilín Martin is now the cool clean hero.
It is the same mentality that resided in the Catholic church where the good name of the institution was more important than the wrongdoings.
I have seen a few minor skeletons stored in the cupboard recently. I can't whistleblower because it would be seen as bitter and not do my company (a supplier) any good whatsoever. Skeletons are everywhere in varying degrees
Has Shatter finally been nailed? (http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/final-straw-as-alan-shatter-breaks-law-on-mick-wallace-30242261.html)
(SUNDAY INDEPENDENT 4 MAY 2014)
NIAMH HORAN AND JOHN DRENNAN
A SHOCKING finding that Justice Minister Alan Shatter broke data-protection laws could spell the end of his cabinet career. The finding is contained in a draft decision by the Data Protection Commissioner, Billy Hawkes, which is due to be issued this week.
It follows a complaint made by Independent TD Mick Wallace after Mr Shatter revealed live on RTE's Prime Time on May 16, 2013, that the Wexford deputy had been cautioned by gardai for using his mobile phone while driving.
Mr Shatter later told the Dail that former Garda Commissioner Martin Callinan had told him about the incident, which occurred in Dublin in May 2012. Mr Wallace subsequently filed an official complaint to the Data Protection Commissioner's Office.
The Sunday Independent has learned that Mr Shatter has been found guilty of breaking data-protection law.
"Fine Gael are in a real bind. This is one they cannot just brush under the carpet," a legal source said.
An adverse finding by the Data Commissioner leaves Mr Shatter open to a lawsuit by Mr Wallace, who can take civil proceedings against him, seeking compensation.
Mr Shatter, who has faced repeated calls to resign over his handling of a string of garda controversies, will be able to appeal the decision.
However, the damaging finding that a serving Justice Minister has been found to have broken the law could spell the end of his ministerial career and will certainly compound existing tensions within the Coalition.
Two further reports - the Cooke investigation into the GSOC bugging controversy and the Guerin review into garda whistleblower Maurice McCabe's claims of mishandling of criminal investigations - could spell further trouble for Mr Shatter and the Coalition.
One minister told the Sunday Independent last night: "If those reports, particularly the one on GSOC, do not support Shatter, he really is toast."
The minister added: "Confidence is utterly shattered on both sides of the Coalition. The election campaigns have been disastrous, the voters hostile. More trouble over Shatter would put the tin hat on it."
Prior to today's revelations, one senior Labour source had warned: "Shatter is on the brink, his line of political credit is very thin."
Another senior Labour figure warned: "Our tolerance for indulging failing Fine Gael ministers is very low. When it comes to errors, Mr Shatter is on a political choke chain."
Mr Shatter, however, is believed to enjoy the confidence of Taoiseach Enda Kenny.
One senior Fine Gael told this newspaper: "Enda is very loyal, too loyal for his or our good. He feels Shatter has been hounded by the media and vested interest groups who want his head."
However, anger is growing within Fine Gael over Mr Shatter's performance.
A Fine Gael minister said: "Shatter has ruined us. We were doing grand, we had just left the Troika. His performance and (Health Minister James) Reilly's have been devastating for our core vote."
When the complaint against Mr Shatter was first raised, Data Protection Commissioner Billy Hawkes said it was "incumbent upon all persons in the public, whether they are ministers or public servants, to be careful about personal data that they hold and not to disclose it, other than with the consent of the person".
A source close to Mr Wallace said: "This is a massive coup for Mick, who has long argued that the public cannot have a Minister for Justice who abused his position by using his power to find private information on an individual to smear their reputation for political point-scoring."
Commissioner Hawkes last night said he could not comment "at this juncture".
I'd question the timing of this action by the data-commisioner. ;)
Seriously though, if he broke the law as Minister for Justice he should resign.
+1 muppet
Good article by Gene Kerrigan also today on a similar topic
A small event occurred last week that should not be allowed to vanish down the memory hole. It involved our dear leader, Enda of the Thousand Cuts. In considering this matter, it's as well to bear in mind that this is the man who on occasion goes into rooms, alone, with EU and other leaders, and with ECB banking warlords, and who reaches understandings with them – the details of which are not revealed to us.
The incident – it's on the Dail record, it's on YouTube – was a demonstration of our Taoiseach's ability to find a juvenile aspect to any issue, to then tell an untruth about his conduct, and then to try to shush it up with a half-hearted withdrawal of his juvenile intervention.
Mr Kenny has been in the Dail since 1975 – but for 36 of those years we didn't have to worry about him. For a couple of years in the Nineties he was a junior minister for tourism, but other than that he wasn't in a position to do much damage. He was leader of Fine Gael, mind you, but – well, someone has to be.
Then, Fianna Fail wrecked the country and Mr Kenny promised change, so he was elected along with an army of faithful cheerleaders.
Last Wednesday, at Leaders' Questions, Luke Flanagan informed the Taoiseach that he'd been approached by a serving garda, under the Garda Siochana Act. The garda made an allegation of corruption within the drug squad. This garda, he said, wasn't sure he could trust GSOC. He was generally apprehensive about coming forward.
The garda was right to worry. The former Commissioner described whistleblowers as "disgusting". Forced by public concern to appear to give a damn, the Government prepared whistleblower legislation, but the Taoiseach's every move was grudging.
It was in the Seventies that Mr Kenny came to political maturity (in his case, an unfortunate phrase). Back then, and too often since, the dominant culture said it's best to keep your mouth shut. Better to let corruption blossom unseen. To reveal it is to lower respect for the police force/the planning system/the church.
And we know where that leads.
"It was," said Flanagan, "a worrying ordeal for the garda in question to go to GSOC today, given his understandable concern about confidentiality." Flanagan went with him that morning – they met at or went into the coffee shop next door to GSOC, and former garda John Wilson, whose own whistleblowing led to his exit from the force, went along for support (and was in the public gallery during the Dail exchange).
The garda's worry, Flanagan said, "was significantly increased this morning when it became obvious that we were under surveillance by an unmarked garda car".
Flanagan asked a question of Mr Kenny. "What will the Taoiseach do about this, bearing in mind good people are being silenced and the legislation he is standing by is anything but fit for purpose?"
Now, we've no idea if the allegation of corruption holds water. We don't know if that was indeed a garda car. And if it was, we don't know if it was there to watch the garda, or Mr Wilson, or Mr Flanagan or GSOC – or if it just happened to be in the vicinity. There may be an innocent explanation.
What we do know is that in recent years things have happened within the force that are extremely worrying. And concerns about such matters should be treated with seriousness.
What an adult Taoiseach would say would be something like this: "I hope you're wrong – I trust someone took the registration number of the car. I will put a reliable official on this and before the end of the day I'll get back to you with my opinion as to whether this requires further action. Or – and I hope is the case – perhaps there was a misunderstanding."
That's how adults respond to serious matters.
Here's how the Taoiseach responded. "I have no information about, about..." And between those two 'abouts', there was a suggestion of a titter.
"... Deputy Flanagan being followed or under surveillance by an unmarked car. Sharp man to know that an unmarked car was actually shadowing him. Maybe it was not him they had under surveillance."
Now, Flanagan hadn't asked the Taoiseach what he knew about the surveillance. But Mr Kenny was, like any comedian, merely laying the groundwork for his joke.
"Maybe they thought there was somebody dealing." Boom boom.
There was some hooting from Mr Kenny's cheerleaders. Beside the Taoiseach, Michael Noonan left a smirk on his face for some time.
Flanagan believes that cannabis should be decriminalised. This suggested to the Taoiseach that he might make a joke about Flanagan being under surveillance by the drug squad. Mattie McGrath and Roisin Shortall immediately understood how wrong this was, in the context, and asked the Taoiseach to withdraw the remark.
Flanagan protested about the Taoiseach making "a joke out of it".
Mr Kenny: "I made no joke about any comment you made." This was untrue.
The old grudging attitude emerged briefly and he couldn't resist letting us know what he thinks of whistleblowers. "It seems that anybody who has had any connection with a garda over the past 30 years wants to bring forward reports and comments."
He then attacked Flanagan. "It ill behoves you to come in here and make your allegations about treating comments that you make as a joke."
The adults sought to gently help the Taoiseach off the hook on which he'd hung himself. Micheal Martin said the Taoiseach had, "made a remark . . . which could be misconstrued . . . Perhaps it should be withdrawn".
One of Mr Kenny's Fine Gael cheerleaders, a Mr Butler, had to be told by the Ceann Comhairle, "Sorry, deputy, you're not entitled to roar and shout across the chamber".
Mr Butler made a remark about "yer man" in the public gallery, referring to John Wilson. Never, even in his dreams, will Mr Butler deliver the public service John Wilson has performed.
Later, Pearse Doherty said he was disappointed. "I think these issues should be taken seriously."
Aware at last that the adults were embarrassed by the smirking, Mr Kenny then said: "I withdraw any remark that might have given a perception of a joking nature." He couldn't say he'd instinctively made an inappropriate joke about serious matters – the fault wasn't his, it was in those who perceived his comment to be a joke.
He invited Luke Flanagan "to give me the information he has received"; it will be treated "with the respect it deserves".
And we know how much respect that is.
It may well be that what happened near the GSOC offices on Wednesday was some sort of misunderstanding. We must hope it was – in which case, no harm done. Let's see where, if anywhere, the allegation about corruption in the drug squad leads.
We hope it was a misunderstanding. Because if that was a police car, and it was keeping surveillance on legitimate behaviour – officially or unofficially – we are in bigger trouble than we thought. And that's no joke.
Shatter resigns.
No great loss.
Quote from: armaghniac on May 07, 2014, 05:05:09 PM
Shatter resigns.
No great loss.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0507/615716-alan-shatter-mick-wallace/ (http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0507/615716-alan-shatter-mick-wallace/)
Shatter had to go, he broke the law.
Wallace broke the law too. We know he didn't pay €1.4m in taxes and we also know, though we shouldn't, that he was stopped by a Gárda while driving and talking on a telephone. Both of these are against the law. I would like to see Mick on his bike as well.
Was it not only yesterday that Alan Shatter enjoyed the confidence of the Taoiseach and Taniaste? A bit like the chairman's vote of confidence for soccer managers = kiss of death!
Not the most humble of resignation letters. You can tell he still feels deep down that he's a victim here and everyone has been out to get him.
Not much loss - and it gives Enda his opportunity to reshuffle :D
Tús maith.....
Muppet , did Wallace not just have a cop point at him through his window at traffic lights? I don't think he actually stopped.
Glad to see that arrogant git resign, even his supposed apologies and resignation letter stink of arrogance.
Yes he had to go, in fact he should have gone a long time ago, but how f*cked up is this country when anyone has to resign over a hoor like Mick Wallace.
Quote from: Itchy on May 07, 2014, 05:55:59 PM
Muppet , did Wallace not just have a cop point at him through his window at traffic lights? I don't think he actually stopped.
Glad to see that arrogant git resign, even his supposed apologies and resignation letter stink of arrogance.
Dunno, but driving while on the phone is still breaking the law. So is not paying €1.4m in vat.
The resignation has nothing to do with the Mick Wallace/Data Protection breach. It's on foot of the Guerin report on the handling of the whistleblowers' allegations.
Good riddance either way.
Quote from: muppet on May 07, 2014, 06:05:14 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 07, 2014, 05:55:59 PM
Muppet , did Wallace not just have a cop point at him through his window at traffic lights? I don't think he actually stopped.
Glad to see that arrogant git resign, even his supposed apologies and resignation letter stink of arrogance.
Dunno, but driving while on the phone is still breaking the law. So is not paying €1.4m in vat.
Minister for justice leaking Info on TV that he shouldn't or let's say at best not taking allegations of Garda corruption serious is a bit worse than Wallace. The on the phone thing is nothing. The tax evasion he was caught and made arrangements with revenue.
Quote from: Hardy on May 07, 2014, 06:10:35 PM
The resignation has nothing to do with the Mick Wallace/Data Protection breach. It's on foot of the Guerin report on the handling of the whistleblowers' allegations.
Good riddance either way.
+1
It will be interesting to see who will be put in place now.
Quote from: Itchy on May 07, 2014, 06:22:10 PM
Quote from: muppet on May 07, 2014, 06:05:14 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 07, 2014, 05:55:59 PM
Muppet , did Wallace not just have a cop point at him through his window at traffic lights? I don't think he actually stopped.
Glad to see that arrogant git resign, even his supposed apologies and resignation letter stink of arrogance.
Dunno, but driving while on the phone is still breaking the law. So is not paying €1.4m in vat.
Minister for justice leaking Info on TV that he shouldn't or let's say at best not taking allegations of Garda corruption serious is a bit worse than Wallace. The on the phone thing is nothing. The tax evasion he was caught and made arrangements with revenue.
The reason he went in the end was the Data Protection Commissioner saying he had broken the law. He had to go in that case.
Muppet - that's not the reason. It should be enough in itself, but it's not the reason he resigned. See my post above.
Quote from: Hardy on May 07, 2014, 07:13:29 PM
Muppet - that's not the reason. It should be enough in itself, but it's not the reason he resigned. See my post above.
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/alan-shatter-and-the-sean-guerin-report-why-the-minister-resigned-30253627.html (http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/alan-shatter-and-the-sean-guerin-report-why-the-minister-resigned-30253627.html)
I missed this story completely.
I noted that Frances Fitzgerald is a possible replacement as Minister for Justice. Dear lord.
Added to Mairead McGuinness as a potential MEP can the public actually say they vote for these people?
The brain trust at FG is quite low by the looks of it, especially with enda at the helm.
edit - speaking of MEP's - i'm not forgetting that weasel Sean Kelly, the former GAA head. That man should never have graced croke park. Purely a career man, not a GAA man.
Deeelighted shitter has eventually had to go
Inda looked shook and wan in the dail today announcing it
Fox - money is on some buck eejit called Flanagan getting the job.
He was a repetitive tool on rte new interview tonight- but couldn't be any worse than shitter
We need a dictator as our politicians are siht
Michael Oleary !
;)
I like Miriam Lord, a good piece in the times today sums the man up.
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/minister-for-self-defence-stayed-true-to-form-to-the-end-1.1787401
With so many Fianna Fail governments in our recent past I'd almost forgotten what accountability looked like ... long may it continue.
Quote from: Billys Boots on May 08, 2014, 10:59:32 AM
With so many Fianna Fail governments in our recent past I'd almost forgotten what accountability looked like ... long may it continue.
This shouldn't be construed as a defense of FF but this process has hardly be a resounding example of accountability. Shatter should have been gone a long time ago if there was any accountability for any of several matters. The fact that he remained so long in his job, and did so even after being found to have broken the law, shows FF and FG are the two sides of the same shitty stick.
LOL
Enda won't let the woman in charge of the army.
Frances Fitzgerald has been appointed as the new Justice Minister after the shock resignation of Alan Shatter over the handling of Garda corruption allegations.
The former social worker and mother-of-three has been elevated from her role as Children's Minister in a mini-reshuffle of the cabinet sparked by yesterday's high-profile departure.
Taoiseach Enda Kenny praised Ms Fitzgerald for her reform children's rights during her tenure in her previous position.
"I know she will bring the same energy, commitment and reforming zeal to her new role as Minister for Justice and Equality," he said.
Quote from: foxcommander on May 07, 2014, 10:39:10 PM
speaking of MEP's - i'm not forgetting that weasel Sean Kelly, the former GAA head. That man should never have graced croke park. Purely a career man, not a GAA man.
Sean Kelly was elected Uachtarán CLG. He is also entitled ,like all the other leading GAA Officials to have a career outside the GAA.
Croke Park isn't some kind of playground for extremists - it belongs to ALL the GAA - FFrs,FGrs,Labs,SFrs,people with no political leanings etc etc.
Yes, but I always felt that Kelly used his time in Croke park to advance his political ambitions.
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 08, 2014, 11:20:02 AM
Quote from: Billys Boots on May 08, 2014, 10:59:32 AM
With so many Fianna Fail governments in our recent past I'd almost forgotten what accountability looked like ... long may it continue.
This shouldn't be construed as a defense of FF but this process has hardly be a resounding example of accountability. Shatter should have been gone a long time ago if there was any accountability for any of several matters. The fact that he remained so long in his job, and did so even after being found to have broken the law, shows FF and FG are the two sides of the same shitty stick.
I disagree Seanie, resignations didn't happen with FF - they brazened it out regardless. This was shite alright, but still a vast improvement, which shows how inured we've become to gombeenism.
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 08, 2014, 01:13:03 PM
Yes, but I always felt that Kelly used his time in Croke park to advance his political ambitions.
He's hardly the first politician to advance due to a GAA connection ;)
What I didn't like about Kelly was the way he portrayed himself as the modern gaa man dragging all the muck savages into the future.
Quote from: Itchy on May 07, 2014, 06:22:10 PM
Quote from: muppet on May 07, 2014, 06:05:14 PM
Quote from: Itchy on May 07, 2014, 05:55:59 PM
Muppet , did Wallace not just have a cop point at him through his window at traffic lights? I don't think he actually stopped.
Glad to see that arrogant git resign, even his supposed apologies and resignation letter stink of arrogance.
Dunno, but driving while on the phone is still breaking the law. So is not paying €1.4m in vat.
Minister for justice leaking Info on TV that he shouldn't or let's say at best not taking allegations of Garda corruption serious is a bit worse than Wallace. The on the phone thing is nothing. The tax evasion he was caught and made arrangements with revenue.
you'd gotta wonder whats in this report when after all he'd managed to brazen out finally forced his hand in resignation. Is this report to be published tomorrow?
His indignation at not being interviewed by Sean Guerin when his own investigation into Garda whistle blowers didn't even interview them and proceeded to say they didn't cooperate..
He comes across as an odious bollox.
Quote from: All of a Sludden on May 08, 2014, 11:39:16 AM
Frances Fitzgerald has been appointed as the new Justice Minister after the shock resignation of Alan Shatter over the handling of Garda corruption allegations.
The former social worker and mother-of-three has been elevated from her role as Children's Minister in a mini-reshuffle of the cabinet sparked by yesterday's high-profile departure.
Taoiseach Enda Kenny praised Ms Fitzgerald for her reform children's rights during her tenure in her previous position.
"I know she will bring the same energy, commitment and reforming zeal to her new role as Minister for Justice and Equality," he said.
I said that yesterday half-joking - i didn't think they'd actually do it on my recommendation!!
That woman is braindead. She must be doing kenny on the side or something and blackmailed him for these jobs...
can't be any other reason...
Can the public now see that FG are a shambles?
Quote from: Billys Boots on May 08, 2014, 01:15:57 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 08, 2014, 11:20:02 AM
Quote from: Billys Boots on May 08, 2014, 10:59:32 AM
With so many Fianna Fail governments in our recent past I'd almost forgotten what accountability looked like ... long may it continue.
This shouldn't be construed as a defense of FF but this process has hardly be a resounding example of accountability. Shatter should have been gone a long time ago if there was any accountability for any of several matters. The fact that he remained so long in his job, and did so even after being found to have broken the law, shows FF and FG are the two sides of the same shitty stick.
I disagree Seanie, resignations didn't happen with FF - they brazened it out regardless. This was shite alright, but still a vast improvement, which shows how inured we've become to gombeenism.
I disagree that it was a "vast improvement" as you put it. It was a disgrace he wasn't gone a long time ago. No-one deserves any credit for him going now. The sooner FF/FG/Labour are off the stage the better. People just have to stop voting for them.
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 08, 2014, 01:13:03 PM
Yes, but I always felt that Kelly used his time in Croke park to advance his political ambitions.
Completely agree.
This is from his election page bio
"One of the watershed events during his presidency was the successful conclusion of arrangements for the use of Croke Park, the GAA's 82,500 capacity national stadium, by the Irish Rugby Football Union and the Football Association of Ireland while Lansdowne Road was being re-developed. "
I always felt he had one eye on the future when he allowed it to happen...
Not a true GAA man at all.
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 08, 2014, 02:28:03 PM
Quote from: Billys Boots on May 08, 2014, 01:15:57 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 08, 2014, 11:20:02 AM
Quote from: Billys Boots on May 08, 2014, 10:59:32 AM
With so many Fianna Fail governments in our recent past I'd almost forgotten what accountability looked like ... long may it continue.
This shouldn't be construed as a defense of FF but this process has hardly be a resounding example of accountability. Shatter should have been gone a long time ago if there was any accountability for any of several matters. The fact that he remained so long in his job, and did so even after being found to have broken the law, shows FF and FG are the two sides of the same shitty stick.
I disagree Seanie, resignations didn't happen with FF - they brazened it out regardless. This was shite alright, but still a vast improvement, which shows how inured we've become to gombeenism.
I disagree that it was a "vast improvement" as you put it. It was a disgrace he wasn't gone a long time ago. No-one deserves any credit for him going now. The sooner FF/FG/Labour are off the stage the better. People just have to stop voting for them.
And vote for whom?
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 08, 2014, 02:34:29 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 08, 2014, 02:28:03 PM
Quote from: Billys Boots on May 08, 2014, 01:15:57 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 08, 2014, 11:20:02 AM
Quote from: Billys Boots on May 08, 2014, 10:59:32 AM
With so many Fianna Fail governments in our recent past I'd almost forgotten what accountability looked like ... long may it continue.
This shouldn't be construed as a defense of FF but this process has hardly be a resounding example of accountability. Shatter should have been gone a long time ago if there was any accountability for any of several matters. The fact that he remained so long in his job, and did so even after being found to have broken the law, shows FF and FG are the two sides of the same shitty stick.
I disagree Seanie, resignations didn't happen with FF - they brazened it out regardless. This was shite alright, but still a vast improvement, which shows how inured we've become to gombeenism.
I disagree that it was a "vast improvement" as you put it. It was a disgrace he wasn't gone a long time ago. No-one deserves any credit for him going now. The sooner FF/FG/Labour are off the stage the better. People just have to stop voting for them.
And vote for whom?
Any other cadidates running independently or for parties who haven't destroyed the State by abandoning authority to Europe and creating a "who you know" system for everything in this blasted place.
The place is in chaos. Why keep repeating the does of what has got us here? That's the height of stupidity.
I hear what you're saying, Seanie, but is it Mary Lou and Mick Wallace then?
It illustrates the desperate straits we're in.
(Glens Abu, Nally - don't feel it's necessary, just this once.)
Quote from: Hardy on May 08, 2014, 02:45:10 PM
I hear what you're saying, Seanie, but is it Mary Lou and Mick Wallace then?
It illustrates the desperate straits we're in.
(Glens Abu, Nally - don't feel it's necessary, just this once.)
It is sad really when you look at it.
There isn't even a decent protest vote any more.
Quote from: Hardy on May 08, 2014, 02:45:10 PM
I hear what you're saying, Seanie, but is it Mary Lou and Mick Wallace then?
It illustrates the desperate straits we're in.
(Glens Abu, Nally - don't feel it's necessary, just this once.)
Well from what I can see Mick Wallace is a dope so he wouldn't be getting my vote. There are some interesting people in the independents and smaller parties who have been conveniently marginalised and written off as nutters by FF/FG/Lab, assisted by their propaganda machine in Donnybrook. I think some of them could do a good job. If they don't we're no worse off than we are now. I understand the unpalatable nature of SF for many but it's hard to deny that the likes of Pearse Doherty and Mary Lou don't deserve a shot at a ministry above the gombeens that have had hem over the years.
Also - if FF/FG/Lab is destroyed, as it must be, new parties will emerge. A new system of parliament and governence is the key thing though. That can't happen with FF/FG/Lab still breathing. This country is rotten to the core and only a major overhaul can attempt to fix it.
I realise I'm in the minority in my views. Unfortunately most of my fellow citizens of the ROI are satisfied to continue with this cycle of effectvely single party boom and bust government.
Quote from: foxcommander on May 08, 2014, 02:29:32 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 08, 2014, 01:13:03 PM
Yes, but I always felt that Kelly used his time in Croke park to advance his political ambitions.
I always felt he had one eye on the future when he allowed it to happen...
Not a true GAA man at all.
He didn't ALLOW it to happen. 70% of the GAA at Congress voted for it to happen.
I suppose in your deluded purity corner extremist world they're not "real GAA men" either. ::)
What is a "real GAA man" in your eyes??
He wanted it to happen so it would make him look good, not because it was the right thing for the GAA. It may well have been the right thing for the GAA but I don't believe that was his main motivation. Others seem to share that view.
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 08, 2014, 03:27:22 PM
Quote from: Hardy on May 08, 2014, 02:45:10 PM
I hear what you're saying, Seanie, but is it Mary Lou and Mick Wallace then?
It illustrates the desperate straits we're in.
(Glens Abu, Nally - don't feel it's necessary, just this once.)
Well from what I can see Mick Wallace is a dope so he wouldn't be getting my vote. There are some interesting people in the independents and smaller parties who have been conveniently marginalised and written off as nutters by FF/FG/Lab, assisted by their propaganda machine in Donnybrook. I think some of them could do a good job. If they don't we're no worse off than we are now. I understand the unpalatable nature of SF for many but it's hard to deny that the likes of Pearse Doherty and Mary Lou don't deserve a shot at a ministry above the gombeens that have had hem over the years.
Also - if FF/FG/Lab is destroyed, as it must be, new parties will emerge. A new system of parliament and governence is the key thing though. That can't happen with FF/FG/Lab still breathing. This country is rotten to the core and only a major overhaul can attempt to fix it.
I realise I'm in the minority in my views. Unfortunately most of my fellow citizens of the ROI are satisfied to continue with this cycle of effectvely single party boom and bust government.
I dunno Seanie; I am, as I expected, finding it hard to 'judge' the performance of the FG/Lab coalition in view of the disaster they inherited, though as you say, they're not covering themselves in glory (though it's hard to see how they would). I've always thought that local politics is best served by independent thought and deed and will continue to vote that way.
On another note, it's hard not to see SF becoming the new FF, with their Dev-like tactic of tying up the 'smallholders' of today.
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 08, 2014, 04:02:08 PM
He wanted it to happen so it would make him look good, not because it was the right thing for the GAA. It may well have been the right thing for the GAA but I don't believe that was his main motivation. Others seem to share that view.
You could tell at the time that he had a determination to force it though and pretty much blackmailed the GAA into making it happen as they didn't want to be seen as bad neighbours. The truth of his reasoning is for all to see in the propaganda on his website.
Quote from: Billys Boots on May 08, 2014, 04:06:20 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 08, 2014, 03:27:22 PM
Quote from: Hardy on May 08, 2014, 02:45:10 PM
I hear what you're saying, Seanie, but is it Mary Lou and Mick Wallace then?
It illustrates the desperate straits we're in.
(Glens Abu, Nally - don't feel it's necessary, just this once.)
Well from what I can see Mick Wallace is a dope so he wouldn't be getting my vote. There are some interesting people in the independents and smaller parties who have been conveniently marginalised and written off as nutters by FF/FG/Lab, assisted by their propaganda machine in Donnybrook. I think some of them could do a good job. If they don't we're no worse off than we are now. I understand the unpalatable nature of SF for many but it's hard to deny that the likes of Pearse Doherty and Mary Lou don't deserve a shot at a ministry above the gombeens that have had hem over the years.
Also - if FF/FG/Lab is destroyed, as it must be, new parties will emerge. A new system of parliament and governence is the key thing though. That can't happen with FF/FG/Lab still breathing. This country is rotten to the core and only a major overhaul can attempt to fix it.
I realise I'm in the minority in my views. Unfortunately most of my fellow citizens of the ROI are satisfied to continue with this cycle of effectvely single party boom and bust government.
I dunno Seanie; I am, as I expected, finding it hard to 'judge' the performance of the FG/Lab coalition in view of the disaster they inherited, though as you say, they're not covering themselves in glory (though it's hard to see how they would). I've always thought that local politics is best served by independent thought and deed and will continue to vote that way.
On another note, it's hard not to see SF becoming the new FF, with their Dev-like tactic of tying up the 'smallholders' of today.
They have been better than their predecessors in that they didn't bankrupt us with populism. However I think it would send them a very bad message to re-elect either of them on the back of a very mediocre term in office. The worst of the screw ups are messy but minor affairs in comparision to, for one, the McCreevy/Harney led introduction of the Financial Regulator. Now that was a world class screw up that will be felt for decades.
But Fg/Lab just feel like the worst style of Civil Service mediocrity. The old 'do nothing and you'll do nothing wrong' mentality. It is sad that FF didn't die and something else come along to take it's place.
If SF ditched it's leader in the south and softened it's ideology, Doherty and MacDonald might be minister material. O'Caolain was a decent operator as well but I don't see a lot more in therms of cabinet material.
The independents formed a technical group together, a de facto party, to gain rights, but still take their party leaders allowances individually. Thus they unite to benefit from the advantages of being a party, but won't relinquish their >€40,000 a year which they would lose in a party. Leeches.
As I, said a sad state of affairs.
I think was parties did in the past should be largely irrelevant to the future.
What individuals did in the past is very relevant, and what party policies are for the future are of course very important.
Personally I think its a nonsense to say "I'll never vote FF again" when the FF candidate in my constituency was never part of a FF government, and therefore, in my view would be far less to blame for the mess than, for example, a FG or Lab person who was in opposition at the time Bertie or Cowen was leading and was egging them on to spend spend spend.
I'll be looking for the best young candidate in my constituency, regardless of what party if any they belong to. Someone who I believe had nothing to do with damaging the country and isnt part of the old croneyism and who's policies come closest to my own beliefs.
Quote from: Hound on May 08, 2014, 04:50:37 PM
I think was parties did in the past should be largely irrelevant to the future.
What individuals did in the past is very relevant, and what party policies are for the future are of course very important.
Personally I think its a nonsense to say "I'll never vote FF again" when the FF candidate in my constituency was never part of a FF government, and therefore, in my view would be far less to blame for the mess than, for example, a FG or Lab person who was in opposition at the time Bertie or Cowen was leading and was egging them on to spend spend spend.
I'll be looking for the best young candidate in my constituency, regardless of what party if any they belong to. Someone who I believe had nothing to do with damaging the country and isnt part of the old croneyism and who's policies come closest to my own beliefs.
You have a point in that if the electorate doesn't take responsibility for voting for good candidates then we get what we deserve. So to say they are all rubbish is not much of a solution, even if that is exactly how I feel.
However it is stretching things to say a government back-bencher '
would be far less to blame for the mess' than the opposition. Then as now, the opposition is merely a soundbite factory with no mandate and no executive power. Government back benchers as at least closer to the action, with better access to the corridors of power.
These "bright young things" that are being rolled out for FF in particular are merely pawns in the game. The old faces don't fit any more so the young ones are getting fast tracked in in an effort to regain power. Same wolf, different sheep. Martin will get "shafted" (I believe this is planned a long time) conveniently to end the link with the "old FF" and give them the extra boost and eejits will fall for it. FF will be back in Govt after the next election unfortunately and that will prove how stupid/gullible Irish people really are.
FG/Lab "didn't bankrupt the country" merely because they weren't in power at the time. I do not believe they would have done anything materially different. They haven't done a single thing different since they got to power than FF would have done. Anyone who believes there is any difference, bar number of years in office, between FF/FG/Lab is deluded or naive in my view. FF appear more corrupt because they have been in power more and "know the ropes" a bit better.
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 08, 2014, 11:59:26 PM
These "bright young things" that are being rolled out for FF in particular are merely pawns in the game. The old faces don't fit any more so the young ones are getting fast tracked in in an effort to regain power. Same wolf, different sheep. Martin will get "shafted" (I believe this is planned a long time) conveniently to end the link with the "old FF" and give them the extra boost and eejits will fall for it. FF will be back in Govt after the next election unfortunately and that will prove how stupid/gullible Irish people really are.
FG/Lab "didn't bankrupt the country" merely because they weren't in power at the time. I do not believe they would have done anything materially different. They haven't done a single thing different since they got to power than FF would have done. Anyone who believes there is any difference, bar number of years in office, between FF/FG/Lab is deluded or naive in my view. FF appear more corrupt because they have been in power more and "know the ropes" a bit better.
Disagree. Historically, Fine Gael/Labour have brought in a lot of social legislation that Fianna Fáil would never have brought in (divorce, contraception, abortion, equality). FG/Lab have taken on Catholic Church, FG at the risk of losing votes since they have a conservative vote base in rural areas. Never saw a FF leader lambaste the Vatican, nor SF for that matter. Labour were only party to vote against bank guarantee so it cannot be claimed they would have done the same as FF. As for SF, they tolerated a man working for them who had raped his daughter and they tolerate a leader who knew this man had raped his daughter. If they don't have the moral fibre to call him to resign over that, how can you say they deserve a chance to govern. It's an infinite amount of times more serious than what Shatter resigned for.
Quote from: muppet on May 08, 2014, 05:33:23 PM
Quote from: Hound on May 08, 2014, 04:50:37 PM
I think was parties did in the past should be largely irrelevant to the future.
What individuals did in the past is very relevant, and what party policies are for the future are of course very important.
Personally I think its a nonsense to say "I'll never vote FF again" when the FF candidate in my constituency was never part of a FF government, and therefore, in my view would be far less to blame for the mess than, for example, a FG or Lab person who was in opposition at the time Bertie or Cowen was leading and was egging them on to spend spend spend.
I'll be looking for the best young candidate in my constituency, regardless of what party if any they belong to. Someone who I believe had nothing to do with damaging the country and isnt part of the old croneyism and who's policies come closest to my own beliefs.
You have a point in that if the electorate doesn't take responsibility for voting for good candidates then we get what we deserve. So to say they are all rubbish is not much of a solution, even if that is exactly how I feel.
However it is stretching things to say a government back-bencher 'would be far less to blame for the mess' than the opposition. Then as now, the opposition is merely a soundbite factory with no mandate and no executive power. Government back benchers as at least closer to the action, with better access to the corridors of power.
I probably worded it incorrectly but by "part of the government" I meant all FF TDs rather than just ministers.
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 08, 2014, 11:59:26 PM
These "bright young things" that are being rolled out for FF in particular are merely pawns in the game. The old faces don't fit any more so the young ones are getting fast tracked in in an effort to regain power. Same wolf, different sheep. Martin will get "shafted" (I believe this is planned a long time) conveniently to end the link with the "old FF" and give them the extra boost and eejits will fall for it. FF will be back in Govt after the next election unfortunately and that will prove how stupid/gullible Irish people really are.
FG/Lab "didn't bankrupt the country" merely because they weren't in power at the time. I do not believe they would have done anything materially different. They haven't done a single thing different since they got to power than FF would have done. Anyone who believes there is any difference, bar number of years in office, between FF/FG/Lab is deluded or naive in my view. FF appear more corrupt because they have been in power more and "know the ropes" a bit better.
Agree with your second paragraph. I will never forgive those who were corrupt.
But as for economic policy, with all politicians on all sides calling for less taxes, more public spending and higher unemployment benefit, because everyone's number one objective was to be popular and get elected next time, there's very very few people in this country who would have done anything differently had they been part of the government at that time.
However, saying that the new candidates for FF (or FG/Lab) are corrupt because some of the old ones were, is absolute nonsense in my opinion. Its likes saying some Catholic priests were child abusers, therefore they all must be.
Quote from: Hound on May 09, 2014, 07:43:35 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 08, 2014, 11:59:26 PM
These "bright young things" that are being rolled out for FF in particular are merely pawns in the game. The old faces don't fit any more so the young ones are getting fast tracked in in an effort to regain power. Same wolf, different sheep. Martin will get "shafted" (I believe this is planned a long time) conveniently to end the link with the "old FF" and give them the extra boost and eejits will fall for it. FF will be back in Govt after the next election unfortunately and that will prove how stupid/gullible Irish people really are.
FG/Lab "didn't bankrupt the country" merely because they weren't in power at the time. I do not believe they would have done anything materially different. They haven't done a single thing different since they got to power than FF would have done. Anyone who believes there is any difference, bar number of years in office, between FF/FG/Lab is deluded or naive in my view. FF appear more corrupt because they have been in power more and "know the ropes" a bit better.
Agree with your second paragraph. I will never forgive those who were corrupt.
But as for economic policy, with all politicians on all sides calling for less taxes, more public spending and higher unemployment benefit, because everyone's number one objective was to be popular and get elected next time, there's very very few people in this country who would have done anything differently had they been part of the government at that time.
However, saying that the new candidates for FF (or FG/Lab) are corrupt because some of the old ones were, is absolute nonsense in my opinion. Its likes saying some Catholic priests were child abusers, therefore they all must be.
No it's not. The Catholic Church is not designed or intended to be corrupt. Unfortunately our political system and scoiety in general is inherently corrupt.
Quote from: Hound on May 08, 2014, 04:50:37 PM
I think was parties did in the past should be largely irrelevant to the future.
What individuals did in the past is very relevant, and what party policies are for the future are of course very important.
Personally I think its a nonsense to say "I'll never vote FF again" when the FF candidate in my constituency was never part of a FF government, and therefore, in my view would be far less to blame for the mess than, for example, a FG or Lab person who was in opposition at the time Bertie or Cowen was leading and was egging them on to spend spend spend.
I'll be looking for the best young candidate in my constituency, regardless of what party if any they belong to. Someone who I believe had nothing to do with damaging the country and isnt part of the old croneyism and who's policies come closest to my own beliefs.
Sorry Hound, if they're members of a political party then they don't have (personal) policies - they are part of a collective and therefore responsible for those policies and their effects. In my world you can't join a political party without inheriting history. If they want to have policies then they should run as independents and stand over those policies, instead of hiding on the back benches and availing of the collective purse to fund their campaigns.
Quote from: Billys Boots on May 09, 2014, 09:36:53 AM
Quote from: Hound on May 08, 2014, 04:50:37 PM
I think was parties did in the past should be largely irrelevant to the future.
What individuals did in the past is very relevant, and what party policies are for the future are of course very important.
Personally I think its a nonsense to say "I'll never vote FF again" when the FF candidate in my constituency was never part of a FF government, and therefore, in my view would be far less to blame for the mess than, for example, a FG or Lab person who was in opposition at the time Bertie or Cowen was leading and was egging them on to spend spend spend.
I'll be looking for the best young candidate in my constituency, regardless of what party if any they belong to. Someone who I believe had nothing to do with damaging the country and isnt part of the old croneyism and who's policies come closest to my own beliefs.
Sorry Hound, if they're members of a political party then they don't have (personal) policies - they are part of a collective and therefore responsible for those policies and their effects. In my world you can't join a political party without inheriting history. If they want to have policies then they should run as independents and stand over those policies, instead of hiding on the back benches and availing of the collective purse to fund their campaigns.
Billy, I know that individual members have to follow party policies, that obviously goes without saying.
"Inheriting their history" I do not agree with. For any election what a party is going to do next is what is important to me, along with of course what an individual's track record is.
I always vote for the person rather than the party. And I've nothing against independents. I haven't done my full trawl yet but at the moment my top 3 in the upcoming council elections are from FF, FG and Independent, while my top 2 in the euros are Green and Labour!
As for Seanie's view that the Irish political system is designed and intended to be corrupt and that society itself is inherently corrupt - well that's a different kettle of fish! If I thought the same way, there's not a hope in hell I'd sit on my hands and stay here moaning. I'd be up and gone with my family to find a uncorrupt society/system.
Quote from: Hound on May 09, 2014, 10:58:25 AM
Quote from: Billys Boots on May 09, 2014, 09:36:53 AM
Quote from: Hound on May 08, 2014, 04:50:37 PM
I think was parties did in the past should be largely irrelevant to the future.
What individuals did in the past is very relevant, and what party policies are for the future are of course very important.
Personally I think its a nonsense to say "I'll never vote FF again" when the FF candidate in my constituency was never part of a FF government, and therefore, in my view would be far less to blame for the mess than, for example, a FG or Lab person who was in opposition at the time Bertie or Cowen was leading and was egging them on to spend spend spend.
I'll be looking for the best young candidate in my constituency, regardless of what party if any they belong to. Someone who I believe had nothing to do with damaging the country and isnt part of the old croneyism and who's policies come closest to my own beliefs.
Sorry Hound, if they're members of a political party then they don't have (personal) policies - they are part of a collective and therefore responsible for those policies and their effects. In my world you can't join a political party without inheriting history. If they want to have policies then they should run as independents and stand over those policies, instead of hiding on the back benches and availing of the collective purse to fund their campaigns.
Billy, I know that individual members have to follow party policies, that obviously goes without saying.
"Inheriting their history" I do not agree with. For any election what a party is going to do next is what is important to me, along with of course what an individual's track record is.
I always vote for the person rather than the party. And I've nothing against independents. I haven't done my full trawl yet but at the moment my top 3 in the upcoming council elections are from FF, FG and Independent, while my top 2 in the euros are Green and Labour!
As for Seanie's view that the Irish political system is designed and intended to be corrupt and that society itself is inherently corrupt - well that's a different kettle of fish! If I thought the same way, there's not a hope in hell I'd sit on my hands and stay here moaning. I'd be up and gone with my family to find a uncorrupt society/system.
Will you buy my house?
Good look finding an uncorrupt political society.
Seriously though lads, who are we to vote for. If FF/FG/Labour are all toxic, who is left? That can actually form a government I mean?
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 09, 2014, 11:27:23 AM
Good look finding an uncorrupt political society.
Seriously though lads, who are we to vote for. If FF/FG/Labour are all toxic, who is left? That can actually form a government I mean?
That's irrelevant AZ for local elections.
Quote from: Hound on May 09, 2014, 10:58:25 AM
Quote from: Billys Boots on May 09, 2014, 09:36:53 AM
Quote from: Hound on May 08, 2014, 04:50:37 PM
I think was parties did in the past should be largely irrelevant to the future.
What individuals did in the past is very relevant, and what party policies are for the future are of course very important.
Personally I think its a nonsense to say "I'll never vote FF again" when the FF candidate in my constituency was never part of a FF government, and therefore, in my view would be far less to blame for the mess than, for example, a FG or Lab person who was in opposition at the time Bertie or Cowen was leading and was egging them on to spend spend spend.
I'll be looking for the best young candidate in my constituency, regardless of what party if any they belong to. Someone who I believe had nothing to do with damaging the country and isnt part of the old croneyism and who's policies come closest to my own beliefs.
Sorry Hound, if they're members of a political party then they don't have (personal) policies - they are part of a collective and therefore responsible for those policies and their effects. In my world you can't join a political party without inheriting history. If they want to have policies then they should run as independents and stand over those policies, instead of hiding on the back benches and availing of the collective purse to fund their campaigns.
Billy, I know that individual members have to follow party policies, that obviously goes without saying.
"Inheriting their history" I do not agree with. For any election what a party is going to do next is what is important to me, along with of course what an individual's track record is.
I always vote for the person rather than the party. And I've nothing against independents. I haven't done my full trawl yet but at the moment my top 3 in the upcoming council elections are from FF, FG and Independent, while my top 2 in the euros are Green and Labour!
As for Seanie's view that the Irish political system is designed and intended to be corrupt and that society itself is inherently corrupt - well that's a different kettle of fish! If I thought the same way, there's not a hope in hell I'd sit on my hands and stay here moaning. I'd be up and gone with my family to find a uncorrupt society/system.
1. If you focus on the individual candidate rather than their party, and you believe that they don't necessarily 'inherit their history', does that apply to SF as well? (Apologies if you've already answered this elsewhere).
2. If "what a party is going to do next" is what is important to you, don't you risk limiting yourself to evaluating campaign promises / doorstep pledges?
OK, sorry, maybe I missed that caveat, but to be honest local elections are glorified opinion polls where protest votes abound. When the rubber hits the road, and we're voting for our next government, who can you vote for if the 3 main parties are personae non gratae.
You canot extract FF/FG/Lab from the past. The amount of people they have appointed to positions, boards etc. The networks they have built up with big business, bankers, civil service, unions etc. This is the real power in the country.
Agree with you AZ on the point of "Good look finding an uncorrupt political society." However, I think it would be difficult to find one where people accept as much and still vote for the same people as we do in Ireland. It's baffling.
Yeah, I know what you meant AZ, but I think it's a very stupid thing for people to thinhk about national government when voting for local government - two completely different animals.
When you consider that the vast majority of people who become involved in political protests (of one kind or another) are in relation to issues very local to themselves, then applying national 'criteria' to whom they vote for in local elections would appear to me to be, ahem, short-sighted. in the extreme.
I know. I went off on a tangent, but when I hear that people won't ever vote for FF/FG or LAB in an election, I ask who can they vote for. Mick Wallace, Ming or Clare Daly are not going to be forming a government.
Quote from: MasterShake on May 09, 2014, 11:56:08 AM
1. If you focus on the individual candidate rather than their party, and you believe that they don't necessarily 'inherit their history', does that apply to SF as well? (Apologies if you've already answered this elsewhere).
2. If "what a party is going to do next" is what is important to you, don't you risk limiting yourself to evaluating campaign promises / doorstep pledges?
That's a good question. Sinn Fein still have the old guard at leadership level, so that's a bit different than FF. I'd have felt for a while that they'd need to get rid of Adams if they wanted to make real inroads down south. Funnily what has been shown in the last week or so is why Adams is leader and why McGuinness and MaryLou aren't. Admittedly I'm also coming round to the view that the good Adams has done has outweighed the bad, so its time to treat them like I treat any other party and view them on their policies.
(While completely unrealistic, what I would really love to hear/read from Adams is an account of what he actually did during the troubles. What his thought processes were at the time during any "operation" he was involved in or knew about. How he looks back on things now with the benefit of hindsight. With all he's done/achieved in recent years I'd love him to be able to be open and honest without fear of getting locked up)
Of course I still doubt I'd ever vote for SF unless their economic policies change. On another thread there's a SF campaigner (glens abu I think) blaming the multi-nationals and saying how we need to increase their tax rates - that's just ludicrous.
On the plus side, Pearse Doherty comes across really well. If they find more of his ilk they'll be a serious proposition.
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 09, 2014, 12:54:57 PM
I know. I went off on a tangent, but when I hear that people won't ever vote for FF/FG or LAB in an election, I ask who can they vote for. Mick Wallace, Ming or Clare Daly are not going to be forming a government.
Dunno. When I have an answer, I'll let you know :-\
So Shatter only goes when it is made official in public what he done.
Scary to think what those in power must get away with when things are not reported/investigated or made public.
Indeed :o ???
Had to laugh this morning when I saw on Sky News that a Committee of MPs want tmore transparency from the Brit Intelligence( Spy/Dirty Tricks) Agencies like MI5,6 etc.
They'll be waiting ;D >:(
Quote from: Hound on May 09, 2014, 12:55:23 PM
Quote from: MasterShake on May 09, 2014, 11:56:08 AM
1. If you focus on the individual candidate rather than their party, and you believe that they don't necessarily 'inherit their history', does that apply to SF as well? (Apologies if you've already answered this elsewhere).
2. If "what a party is going to do next" is what is important to you, don't you risk limiting yourself to evaluating campaign promises / doorstep pledges?
That's a good question. Sinn Fein still have the old guard at leadership level, so that's a bit different than FF. I'd have felt for a while that they'd need to get rid of Adams if they wanted to make real inroads down south. Funnily what has been shown in the last week or so is why Adams is leader and why McGuinness and MaryLou aren't. Admittedly I'm also coming round to the view that the good Adams has done has outweighed the bad, so its time to treat them like I treat any other party and view them on their policies.
(While completely unrealistic, what I would really love to hear/read from Adams is an account of what he actually did during the troubles. What his thought processes were at the time during any "operation" he was involved in or knew about. How he looks back on things now with the benefit of hindsight. With all he's done/achieved in recent years I'd love him to be able to be open and honest without fear of getting locked up)
Of course I still doubt I'd ever vote for SF unless their economic policies change. On another thread there's a SF campaigner (glens abu I think) blaming the multi-nationals and saying how we need to increase their tax rates - that's just ludicrous.
On the plus side, Pearse Doherty comes across really well. If they find more of his ilk they'll be a serious proposition.
You could say the same for Bertie!
From RTE.ie
"Minister for Justice Frances Fitzgerald has said there will be a Commission of Investigation following the publication of the Guerin Report.
The report looked into allegations that serious crimes were not investigated properly by gardaí."
Awesome. Problem fixed. Well done government, you have restored my confidence.
I had no need to worry about Deputy Fitzgerald. An enquiry into an enquiry was the answer. Why didn't we realise it?
That's why they get paid the big bucks.
Quote from: Hound on May 09, 2014, 07:43:35 AM
But as for economic policy, with all politicians on all sides calling for less taxes, more public spending and higher unemployment benefit, because everyone's number one objective was to be popular and get elected next time, there's very very few people in this country who would have done anything differently had they been part of the government at that time.
The blame can't be laid purely at the feet of the politicians, if they don't tow the populist line then they're out on their ear. We, the people have to take responsibility for voting for these politicians in - over the past 15 years the likes of Lowry, the Flynns, Bertie, Lawlor, Healy Rae, etc, etc have topped the poll while the likes of Dick Spring & Alan Dukes lost or nearly lost their seats. A poor reflection on Irish society imo
Corrupt societies produce corrupt politicians. At the root of all the problems is the Irish disease of clientelism. This provides the platform for the bull-shitting politicians to appear to be doing something, when in fact they are doing nothing. If you are entitled to a service or benefit by virtue of your circumstances or citizenship you do not need the aid of a con-man to obtain it. An honest politician will not attempt to bribe you with stupid promises, that are only intended to make you feel disempowered. He will empower you and your community by listening, determining your needs and advising you are the community how best to organise your campaign plan. In this way he will empower individuals and communities, encourage them to employ their talents, become involved in decision making and not be treated as brain dead voting fodder. SF have absorbed this approach in the North, as have the DUP, hence their success. I dont believe the old traditional parties in the south are capable of reforming themselves, as there no real ideaological or politiical differences between, they are burnt out and lack vision. All that maintains them is stroke politics over petty parish pump issues, and the need to keep their electorates misinformed and grateful for small favours
Quote from: Pangurban on May 10, 2014, 03:05:20 AM
Corrupt societies produce corrupt politicians. At the root of all the problems is the Irish disease of clientelism. This provides the platform for the bull-shitting politicians to appear to be doing something, when in fact they are doing nothing. If you are entitled to a service or benefit by virtue of your circumstances or citizenship you do not need the aid of a con-man to obtain it. An honest politician will not attempt to bribe you with stupid promises, that are only intended to make you feel disempowered. He will empower you and your community by listening, determining your needs and advising you are the community how best to organise your campaign plan. In this way he will empower individuals and communities, encourage them to employ their talents, become involved in decision making and not be treated as brain dead voting fodder. SF have absorbed this approach in the North, as have the DUP, hence their success. I dont believe the old traditional parties in the south are capable of reforming themselves, as there no real ideaological or politiical differences between, they are burnt out and lack vision. All that maintains them is stroke politics over petty parish pump issues, and the need to keep their electorates misinformed and grateful for small favours
Well said. The bit in bold is key.
Saw a few candidates for a party called Fís Nua in the local and Euro elections. Looked at their website and there's a serious amount of sense on it. That's probably why we've heard very little of them.
Don't know about that Seanie. I looked at it, and it looks a bit 'crusty' for me. Point one of their manifesto is:
Move the monetary system away from a debt structure that requires continuous economic growth with a government supported national network of local currencies.
So you'll have the Tipperary tinfoil now being used to buy goods from the Sligo, where it will be converted into the local joycian currency.
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 14, 2014, 02:16:14 PM
Don't know about that Seanie. I looked at it, and it looks a bit 'crusty' for me. Point one of their manifesto is:
Move the monetary system away from a debt structure that requires continuous economic growth with a government supported national network of local currencies.
So you'll have the Tipperary tinfoil now being used to buy goods from the Sligo, where it will be converted into the local joycian currency.
I didn't see that anywhere although I did see a few similar bit of waffle. There is some nonsense but on the big issues they are saying the right things.
Still, you're probably happy enough with the way things are if being "a bit crusty" turns you off more than being systemically corrupt.
Happier than being run by airy fairy pie in the sky stuff like local currencies, yes.
Lookit, it's easy to say 'The people should not have to support the banks', but HOW? Put something concrete in front of me, not emotive statements that are self evident in an ideal world. These guys are talking about reforming society, and seem to be basing all of it on some flimsy utopian communist idea.
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 14, 2014, 03:12:15 PM
Happier than being run by airy fairy pie in the sky stuff like local currencies, yes.
Lookit, it's easy to say 'The people should not have to support the banks', but HOW? Put something concrete in front of me, not emotive statements that are self evident in an ideal world. These guys are talking about reforming society, and seem to be basing all of it on some flimsy utopian communist idea.
At least it's an idea that's their own and is underpinned by fairness. It's at least a good start.
Yeah. I don't mean to come across too harsh on them, and maybe you need a bit of looney in you to make a difference, but I just get leery when I see stuff like that. In Offaly the currency will be turf, and we'll have open borders with Kildare and Roscommon :D
Some of the things I do like the sound of, but again how do we as a country afford it? It's a societal and economic revolution. Maybe that's what's needed, but you need more than a few soundbites on a page.
In the interest of fairness, what I do like out of their 'Prosperity Agenda'
- Introduce a Basic Income that guarantees a sufficient income to each individual irrespective of personal circumstances, so that everyone can afford food and shelter and other daily needs. The Basic Income payment is tax free and all other income is taxed. Q- At what rate? Are they punishing people who try to make money? I do like the basic income concept though.
- Abolish the Universal Social Charge, reduce VAT and support broadly progressive tax systems, with bands, to protect workers from inflation and avoid taxation by stealth. Q - Taxes raise money for other initiatives (including presumably the Basic Income) so where will this money come from? You can't abolish all tax and spend more money.
- Tax incentives to support and encourage home-grown SMEs, Co-operatives, and local indigenous industries and crafts persons who produce for both the home market and export
- With over three hundred thousand dwellings unoccupied in the state this can provide and ensure the delivery of 30,000 social and affordable housing units a year until the housing waiting lists are cleared.
- Positive incentives and home improvement grant schemes to encourage sustainable energy production and energy and water conservation measures.
- No taxation on water and opposition to water metres. No water privatisation.
- Support for a low carbon economy and renewable energy including solar power, small scale and non-intrusive on-shore wind power, offshore wind power, local biomass production and combined heat and power production.
- Work to eliminate corruption by supporting whistleblowers and implementing citizens recall so that MEPs, TDs and councillors who do not implement their election pledges can be removed from office at any time. I love this idea!
they have a lot of other stuff which I think is madness, and some stuff which, as I've said, reads great but I'd like to see the math behind it. Hard to lower taxes, and provide free healthcare to all, and 24 hour PCFs with no money.
Taking back our oil and gas is a good help at paying bills and repudiating the bank debt would also help.
what form would 'repudiation' of the bank debt take?
"f**k off, we're not paying it because it is not our debt to pay" - that would be about the size of it.
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 14, 2014, 03:59:44 PM
Taking back our oil and gas is a good help at paying bills and repudiating the bank debt would also help.
By taking back our oil and gas, do you mean just leaving it in the ground, or the Irish taxpayer fundings billions in expenditure to try and find and extract it?
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 14, 2014, 04:15:17 PM
"f**k off, we're not paying it because it is not our debt to pay" - that would be about the size of it.
Right. And that would work how?
Quote from: Hound on May 14, 2014, 04:22:23 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 14, 2014, 03:59:44 PM
Taking back our oil and gas is a good help at paying bills and repudiating the bank debt would also help.
By taking back our oil and gas, do you mean just leaving it in the ground, or the Irish taxpayer fundings billions in expenditure to try and find and extract it?
Do you not think it's the kind of thing you could make a profit on? There seems to be a wee bit of demand for that sort of stuff out there and it's a finite resource. Suppy and demand I think they call it but I'm not great with all these economic terms unlike the geniuses that have run our country into the ground....
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 14, 2014, 04:24:33 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 14, 2014, 04:15:17 PM
"f**k off, we're not paying it because it is not our debt to pay" - that would be about the size of it.
Right. And that would work how?
Not sure I understand what you are getting at but it would probably play out with a loads of threats, angry words, bullying etc, mostly from our "partners" in our "Community of Equals". Bottom line though is if Germany wants to keep its precious currency so it can sell its goods with the benefit of artificially favourable exchange rate then they need to stump up for that privilege. Time to get real about this whole European "Emporer's New Clothes" project.
What I'm getting at is that you can't just renege on debt like that, and expect no comeback or consequences, in terms of sanctions, refusal to trade etc etc. Maybe the EU membership or whatever. Now that might be all fine and dandy, and something we can live with, but you can't just say 'Repudiate the debt' without explaining exactly how that would play out, and the impact of doing so.
I don't think they would kick us out and if they did we'd survive (though we'd possibly have to increase our fish intake).
What would happen is some sort of compromise like at least a halving of the bank portion of our national debt which I'd probably settle for even though it would still be wrong. We need to go down that road and fecking mean it. It's just wrong, wrong wrong. Think of the proper publice services we could have for that money. Why are we not out on the streets?
Here we go again......
http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0514/617155-construction/
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 14, 2014, 04:25:47 PM
Quote from: Hound on May 14, 2014, 04:22:23 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 14, 2014, 03:59:44 PM
Taking back our oil and gas is a good help at paying bills and repudiating the bank debt would also help.
By taking back our oil and gas, do you mean just leaving it in the ground, or the Irish taxpayer fundings billions in expenditure to try and find and extract it?
Do you not think it's the kind of thing you could make a profit on? There seems to be a wee bit of demand for that sort of stuff out there and it's a finite resource. Suppy and demand I think they call it but I'm not great with all these economic terms unlike the geniuses that have run our country into the ground....
Are you being serious?
Easy to make a profit from oil and gas exploration in Ireland?
You must tell all the big oil and gas companies who ignored the last round of licensing when Ireland was "giving away" the opportunity to explore our waters, because they all ignored it!
Quote from: Hound on May 14, 2014, 07:46:13 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 14, 2014, 04:25:47 PM
Quote from: Hound on May 14, 2014, 04:22:23 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 14, 2014, 03:59:44 PM
Taking back our oil and gas is a good help at paying bills and repudiating the bank debt would also help.
By taking back our oil and gas, do you mean just leaving it in the ground, or the Irish taxpayer fundings billions in expenditure to try and find and extract it?
Do you not think it's the kind of thing you could make a profit on? There seems to be a wee bit of demand for that sort of stuff out there and it's a finite resource. Suppy and demand I think they call it but I'm not great with all these economic terms unlike the geniuses that have run our country into the ground....
Are you being serious?
Easy to make a profit from oil and gas exploration in Ireland?
You must tell all the big oil and gas companies who ignored the last round of licensing when Ireland was "giving away" the opportunity to explore our waters, because they all ignored it!
Why are we wasting our time and money even looking for these oil and gas companies, who ignore us, as Hound put it?
The only gas we produce, or are about to produce, at the moment benefits me and almost everyone else in the country to the tune of precisely nothing. I will pay market rate for gas whether it comes from Russia or Rosport. Leave it in the ground until some competent descendants of ours come along. At least then we won't have squandered it to line the pockets of a treacherous few.
Well said Muppet.
Quote from: muppet on May 14, 2014, 08:27:13 PM
Why are we wasting our time and money even looking for these oil and gas companies, who ignore us, as Hound put it?
The only gas we produce, or are about to produce, at the moment benefits me and almost everyone else in the country to the tune of precisely nothing. I will pay market rate for gas whether it comes from Russia or Rosport. Leave it in the ground until some competent descendants of ours come along. At least then we won't have squandered it to line the pockets of a treacherous few.
I've no problem with the concept that leaving it in the ground might be the best option. No matter who takes it out it would never mean cheap oil/gas for the Irish consumer, we'd be paying market price. The hope would be that it would create additional revenues for the Irish exchequer.
Setting up an Ireland Inc oil company so the Irish exchequer could get 100% of the profits sounds good in an ideal world, but it would mean exposing the taxpayer to high risk exploration costs and enormous set up costs. In my view its better to let the experts take the risks, and we take 25% share of the profits in the form of corporation tax (or up to 40% where significant profits arise). But if the oil companies lose hundreds of millions, there is no cost to the exchequer.
The reason to encourage companies to explore in Irish waters and to encourage them to risk their tens/hundreds of millions in the hope they will get profits out at a relatively low tax rate of 25% is to create a viable petroleum industry in Ireland. To have a town in Mayo/Sligo/Donegal become the next Stavanger or Aberdeen, creating more employment, well paid jobs and all the fringe benefits for the community/local industry that go along with that.
To me it's a staring competition (and our governments have repeatedly blinked very early). Oil companies know there is shed loads of cash to be made but will fight for the best terms to maximise their profits. I fully believe the oil companies know exactly what is out there and where and if we hold firm eventually they'll come crawling to us. I think in our overeagerness for "the next Stavanger/Aberdeen" we tend to sell ourselves short. Like our "best boy in class" approach to the financial crisis.
We really need to stop being everyones doormat - the cute cuddly inoffensive Paddy's, sure aren't they great. Always do what they're told.
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 15, 2014, 11:12:47 AM
To me it's a staring competition (and our governments have repeatedly blinked very early). Oil companies know there is shed loads of cash to be made but will fight for the best terms to maximise their profits. I fully believe the oil companies know exactly what is out there and where and if we hold firm eventually they'll come crawling to us. I think in our overeagerness for "the next Stavanger/Aberdeen" we tend to sell ourselves short. Like our "best boy in class" approach to the financial crisis.
We really need to stop being everyones doormat - the cute cuddly inoffensive Paddy's, sure aren't they great. Always do what they're told.
There's something like a 10% strikerate for exploration around Ireland. So the 90% of the time they drill and find nothing viable, they've deliberately spent 10s of millions to miss to pull the wool over our eyes so they get a better deal. And when they do get the better deal, then they'll go to the spots where they know the oil/gas actually is and fleece us poor paddys.
That's an interesting scenario.
But its a load of nonsense!
Quote from: Hound on May 16, 2014, 07:58:13 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 15, 2014, 11:12:47 AM
To me it's a staring competition (and our governments have repeatedly blinked very early). Oil companies know there is shed loads of cash to be made but will fight for the best terms to maximise their profits. I fully believe the oil companies know exactly what is out there and where and if we hold firm eventually they'll come crawling to us. I think in our overeagerness for "the next Stavanger/Aberdeen" we tend to sell ourselves short. Like our "best boy in class" approach to the financial crisis.
We really need to stop being everyones doormat - the cute cuddly inoffensive Paddy's, sure aren't they great. Always do what they're told.
There's something like a 10% strikerate for exploration around Ireland. So the 90% of the time they drill and find nothing viable, they've deliberately spent 10s of millions to miss to pull the wool over our eyes so they get a better deal. And when they do get the better deal, then they'll go to the spots where they know the oil/gas actually is and fleece us poor paddys.
That's an interesting scenario.
But its a load of nonsense!
I'm glad you're so sure. I'm just a little funny when it comes to trusting the bona fides of oil companies. Must have watched too much Dallas as a kid.
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 15, 2014, 11:12:47 AM
Oil companies know there is shed loads of cash to be made but will fight for the best terms to maximise their profits.
This is half right, of course anybody will try and get the best terms. But there is no evidence that there is "shed loads" of cash to be made in Irish waters, as Hound says there have been lots of false leads and dud wells; there are easier places to find oil and gas. If new evidence to suggest otherwise then we can change the terms of exploration in the future.
Quote from: armaghniac on May 16, 2014, 10:54:49 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 15, 2014, 11:12:47 AM
Oil companies know there is shed loads of cash to be made but will fight for the best terms to maximise their profits.
This is half right, of course anybody will try and get the best terms. But there is no evidence that there is "shed loads" of cash to be made in Irish waters, as Hound says there have been lots of false leads and dud wells; there are easier places to find oil and gas. If new evidence to suggest otherwise then we can change the terms of exploration in the future.
I think in 20-30 years time it will be a different story and we need to err on the side of caution rather than risk frittering it away again. What have we got to lose?
i suppose we have nothing to lose by leaving it, although having oil or gas coming on shore gives up a certain amount of energy security in these troubles times (Ukraine).
since i was a kid i have been hearing about all the oil and gas that we might have off shore in Irish waters and how if we could exploit it we would all be rich rich rich. then every now and again a company would announce that following some survey they have discovered another potential field or whatever.
30 years i have been listening to this and to date not a single drop of oil or gas has arrived from these massive reserves. apparently cashing this winning lottery ticket was not as easy as was being suggested 30years ago.
Not one post on what is potentially one of the biggest scandals in the history of the state?
Is there a lower thing one can do than falsely smear somebody, in this case a whistleblower who has clearly done the state some service, as a child sex abuser?
People should be going to jail over this.
None of the official explanations add up at all.
The whole thing stinks.
Quote from: sid waddell on February 10, 2017, 05:42:00 PM
Not one post on what is potentially one of the biggest scandals in the history of the state?
Is there a lower thing one can do than falsely smear somebody, in this case a whistleblower who has clearly done the state some service, as a child sex abuser?
People should be going to jail over this.
None of the official explanations add up at all.
The whole thing stinks.
Absolutely. shocking carry on. That explanation about a copy and paste error absolutely defies belief. That Garda Commissioner has to go. And you're right, Jail wouldn't be out of the question. Imagine if the deception never came to light, that poor divil's life would be an absolute misery.
Quote from: sid waddell on February 10, 2017, 05:42:00 PM
Not one post on what is potentially one of the biggest scandals in the history of the state?
Is there a lower thing one can do than falsely smear somebody, in this case a whistleblower who has clearly done the state some service, as a child sex abuser?
People should be going to jail over this.
None of the official explanations add up at all.
The whole thing stinks.
Most of the posters here come across as servile establishment lackeys.
NIMBY.
As AZ said awful and heads have to roll but no doubt won't.
Probably some low level Guard or Tusla operative will be hung for it.
I think Bomber you will find most here are from the 6 Counties.
Did these guards actually "blow the whistle" on anything important or was it just penalty points?
Quote from: trileacman on February 10, 2017, 06:29:57 PM
Did these guards actually "blow the whistle" on anything important or was it just penalty points?
Yes
Dodgy stuff going on in border divisions of the gardai
Katie Hannon was on Six One earlier saying that another, unnamed Garda whistleblower had a Tusla file with false allegations of a similar nature to that of the one against McCabe against them.
It's like when the second plane hit the World Trade Centre.
"This has to be deliberate, folks".
John McGuinness called for Noirin O'Sullivan to step aside on the same programme. No other subsequent comment on this from anybody in FFG.
Don't expect any, either. They'll try and make the expendable Katherine Zappone the sacrificial lamb, if anybody, and obscure the real issue.
Fair play to the likes Maurice McCabe. Plenty of bravery and effort needed just to do the right thing. His treatment for telling truth shows the corruption at the heart of many Irish organisations, and no appetite to change it.
Another tribunal/inquiry long after the damage has been done and only because they have been forced into it, and then a report that will be filled away and not acted on.
Quote from: Rossfan on February 10, 2017, 06:19:16 PM
As AZ said awful and heads have to roll but no doubt won't.
Probably some low level Guard or Tusla operative will be hung for it.
I think Bomber you will find most here are from the 6 Counties.
6 counties of Munster?
Probably I am missing something but can someone explain:
Garda McCabe had false details copied and pasted into his file at Tusla - Did he already have a file at this agency into which further details of an alleged crime was added?
Quote from: Take Your Points on February 11, 2017, 07:43:05 PM
Probably I am missing something but can someone explain:
Garda McCabe had false details copied and pasted into his file at Tusla - Did he already have a file at this agency into which further details of an alleged crime was added?
I understand that there was a file with an allegation made by the daughter of a Garda which McCabe had reported. The allegation was investigated by the Gardai and a file sent to DPP recomending no prosecution and actually questioning that there was even an incident.
McCabe knew nothing about this so the fact he wasnt even intetviewed showed what little credibility the complainant had. That should have been that but the file stayed with Tulsa and some clerk "mistakenly" cut and pasted details from some othet case into it.
Hopefully the enquiry will get to the bottom of all this and if heads have to roll then so be it. However if previous incidents are the standard some patsy will be found to take the rap
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on February 10, 2017, 08:58:44 PM
Quote from: trileacman on February 10, 2017, 06:29:57 PM
Did these guards actually "blow the whistle" on anything important or was it just penalty points?
Yes
Dodgy stuff going on in border divisions of the gardai
Like what?
This story gets more incredible by the day...
Cut and paste administrative error.
Worse than brexit!! I'm surprised our leading egg head hasn't been on with countless links to google revealing detailed email accounts and various reliable sources with accurate accounts of what happened !!
Quite a good piece in todays IT outlining yesterdays shambolic performance from Enda Kenny & others in the Dail yesterday -
Miriam Lord: Kenny and Fitzgerald are put on the rack
There were astonishing Dáil scenes as the Taoiseach came under fire over McCabe case
And on the third attempt the Taoiseach made a total hames of the job again.
The Fine Gael backbenchers, those who hadn't already left the chamber, looked thoroughly fed up. How, in the name of God, had they ended up in the middle of this shambles?
It was bad enough that their party leader had been forced into the Dáil to explain himself. But when he did, Enda Kenny still left plenty of room for confusion.
When he completed his short exercise in bamboozlement, Kenny resumed his seat. He sat down to a sullen silence. It emanated from his own TDs.
We are always told that in politics if you're explaining you're losing. By that simple yardstick, Kenny lost big-time yesterday.
To add insult to injury, his Tánaiste, also hauled in to account for her movements, became embroiled in an extraordinary back and forth exchange with her Opposition shadow about which of them was telling the truth.
That will have rankled with members of Fine Gael. They blame Fianna Fáil for frogmarching them, and their leader, into the embarrassing episode. And some, perhaps a growing band of them, also blame Kenny for allowing Micheál Martin to do it to him.
The scenes in the Dáil were astonishing. "Statements of clarification on statements" was the issue up for debate.
The Taoiseach and his deputy leader were on the rack, under sustained fire about what they knew and/or professed to know about a nasty smear campaign waged against a serving Garda sergeant who told inconvenient truths about how the force is run.
As the evening progressed Kenny looked more and more deflated as the questions kept coming, sometimes slumped in his seat, growing redder in the face as the onslaught continued. What did he know? When did he know it? Who said what to whom?
The argument went round and round, members of the Government party deserting the chamber as the Taoiseach's discomfiture grew. Frances Fitzgerald looked distraught.
Queries rained down
Taoiseach and Tánaiste hissed words at each other as the queries rained down. Sometimes Simon Harris, the Minister for Health, leaned across to contribute an observation.
Minister for Children Katherine Zappone, the fourth in this quartet summoned to make statements about statements, emerged relatively unscathed from the experience.
Opposition speakers commended her for her openness and clarity. On the other hand, whether by accident or design, Kenny and Fitzgerald seemed shifty by comparison.
This could be utterly unfair on them. But clarity from the pair of them was in short supply.
One particular question was asked of the Taoiseach first thing in the morning. It was still being shouted at him in the chamber as the night wore on.
It seemed a relatively simple one, but not for Kenny, who squirmed in his seat and either ignored it or deflected when it was asked.
A number of Deputies from various parties asked it – when did you first hear that false rumours about Sgt Maurice McCabe relating to an allegation of serious sexual abuse were being circulated?
Here is Róisín Shortall attempting and failing as the clock crept towards 8pm.
"When did you first become aware of the scurrilous rumours?"
She got nothing back, and followed the lead set by those many TDS who had gone before her by firing the question again and again. Then she too gave up.
"Point of Order," she said in exasperation to the Ceann Comhairle. "The Taoiseach is refusing to answer the questions."
The best he could manage in the face of this recurring demand, the only reply he could occasionally manage, was to angrily retort that he does not deal in rumour and first heard of the smear allegations on Prime Time.
So, he had already forgotten what Labour's Brendan Howlin told him in the Dáil the day before about.
Into a hole
At the start of the day the Taoiseach dug himself pretty smartly into a hole by contradicting his own account of what the Minister for Children told him before and after she met McCabe and what information she gave him.
Last night, by the time whole chaotic mess was adjourned (for the time being), he seemed even deeper in that hole.
""You're well known for having a casual relationship with the truth" is what Paul Murphy of the AAA/PBP told hapless Enda at Leaders' Questions, excoriating him for giving a wrong account of what had transpired between him and Zappone.
"Mea Culpa" was what the Taoiseach said earlier to the House, slapping his hand to his heart as he spoke.
"I am guilty here of not giving accurate information," he confessed, explaining he said Zappone had told him personally about meeting McCabe but "she is very clear that she did not tell me that she intended to meet Sgt McCabe but she did tell her official to tell my office, so I regret that".
In fact the Taoiseach just didn't get his cast of characters mixed up. When interviewed on radio on Sunday, Enda couldn't resist gilding the lily.
It wasn't a case of naming the wrong name, rather he created a little story to bolster his description of a meeting that never actually happened.
Didn't he even tell Zappone (in his own head) to make sure and keep an account of her meeting with McCabe?
That little exchange never happened. The Taoiseach made it up.
Return visit
Meanwhile, Leo Varadkar, who was not present at Leaders' Questions, slipped into the chamber in the late afternoon when Zappone was taking ministerial questions.
He sat in with her for over an hour. But he didn't make it in time for the Taoiseach's return visit in the evening.
Fianna Fáil, meanwhile, is championing the case of McCabe. Better late than never, might be what Clare Daly and Mick Wallace might say.
The two TDs have been knocking their heads off a brick wall for nearly a decade warning that the McCabe story was far too serious to go away.
They allowed themselves a few rueful smiles as the pandemonium they predicted so long so was unfolding in front of them.
And now we are going to have a tribunal of inquiry. One resisted for so long by both Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil. So, is there anything to be said for another tribunal?
The Taoiseach now wants to set one up as soon as possible. He mentioned 48 hours.
By which point, the Government can take refuge in the erroneous excuse peddled by Fianna Fáil when Bertie Ahern was making a show of himself in a tribunal by insisting they can make no further comment while it is under way.
Where the future of the government is concerned, Fianna Fáil do not want an election any time soon.
But where the future of Kenny is concerned, the odds on a change at the top have considerably shortened after Tuesday's bizarre carry-on in the Dáil.
And why did he sound like he and his Minister have something to hide? Why are they making things so difficult for themselves?
The North's assembly was brought down because of less in my opinion. Yet this raggataggle government is still in place. I know nobody wants an election, but in any other country heads would be rolling. If FF had any balls we would be in election mode today. What a farcical shambles our main legislative chamber.
The lack of comment here from our southern brethren is perplexing. As Far notes, this appears to be far more serious than the problems in the north. Sgt McCabe's treatment and the current government's actions are beyond belief.
Quote from: omagh_gael on February 15, 2017, 03:58:57 PM
The lack of comment here from our southern brethren is perplexing. As Far notes, this appears to be far more serious than the problems in the north. Sgt McCabe's treatment and the current government's actions are beyond belief.
Any chance you could lend us the PSNI to do a criminal investigation of all this?
Quote from: sid waddell on February 15, 2017, 04:16:08 PM
Quote from: omagh_gael on February 15, 2017, 03:58:57 PM
The lack of comment here from our southern brethren is perplexing. As Far notes, this appears to be far more serious than the problems in the north. Sgt McCabe's treatment and the current government's actions are beyond belief.
Any chance you could lend us the PSNI to do a criminal investigation of all this?
You need a couple of offices full of incriminating paperwork burnt out?
IT reporting that FG just told their TDs to get ready for another election.
EDIT: http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/varadkar-and-coveney-warn-fine-gael-tds-to-be-ready-for-election-1.2976744
The headline on their app was a bit stronger. It said 'Vradkar and Coveney tell TDs to get ready for an election' rather than "warn" them. The further down the article you read the more of an anti-climax it becomes.
Quote from: omagh_gael on February 15, 2017, 03:58:57 PM
The lack of comment here from our southern brethren is perplexing. As Far notes, this appears to be far more serious than the problems in the north. Sgt McCabe's treatment and the current government's actions are beyond belief.
Quite correct in everything you say.
The lack of comments in the volume there should be is worrying.
Maybe there is just a massive fatigued body of people out there who know that all the gombeens need to do is fudge, bluster, have a tribunal, more fudge, more bluster, stick the findings on the shelf with Moriarty and up Ye boy Ye away we go again lads !!
Because let's face it Ireland is entirely for "the lads" by "the lads"
Who would have thought that a FG junta could be so overtly propped up by a FF parliamentary party.
Qui Bono ? "The lads", nobody will resign, nobody will be sacked, nobody will do any jail time at all, definitely no one will loose their gold plated pension, indeed it most likely will increase.
The place is fucked, utterly utterly fucked.
Quote from: The Subbie on February 16, 2017, 01:25:10 AM
Quote from: omagh_gael on February 15, 2017, 03:58:57 PM
The lack of comment here from our southern brethren is perplexing. As Far notes, this appears to be far more serious than the problems in the north. Sgt McCabe's treatment and the current government's actions are beyond belief.
Quite correct in everything you say.
The lack of comments in the volume there should be is worrying.
Maybe there is just a massive fatigued body of people out there who know that all the gombeens need to do is fudge, bluster, have a tribunal, more fudge, more bluster, stick the findings on the shelf with Moriarty and up Ye boy Ye away we go again lads !!
Because let's face it Ireland is entirely for "the lads" by "the lads"
Who would have thought that a FG junta could be so overtly propped up by a FF parliamentary party.
Qui Bono ? "The lads", nobody will resign, nobody will be sacked, nobody will do any jail time at all, definitely no one will loose their gold plated pension, indeed it most likely will increase.
The place is fucked, utterly utterly fucked.
Exactly. We call ourselves a proud people but in terms of justice and the protection of citizens we're a shamed people. Proud people don't go to ground.
Quote from: The Subbie on February 16, 2017, 01:25:10 AM
Quote from: omagh_gael on February 15, 2017, 03:58:57 PM
The lack of comment here from our southern brethren is perplexing. As Far notes, this appears to be far more serious than the problems in the north. Sgt McCabe's treatment and the current government's actions are beyond belief.
Quite correct in everything you say.
The lack of comments in the volume there should be is worrying.
Maybe there is just a massive fatigued body of people out there who know that all the gombeens need to do is fudge, bluster, have a tribunal, more fudge, more bluster, stick the findings on the shelf with Moriarty and up Ye boy Ye away we go again lads !!
Because let's face it Ireland is entirely for "the lads" by "the lads"
Who would have thought that a FG junta could be so overtly propped up by a FF parliamentary party.
Qui Bono ? "The lads", nobody will resign, nobody will be sacked, nobody will do any jail time at all, definitely no one will loose their gold plated pension, indeed it most likely will increase.
The place is fucked, utterly utterly fucked.
Maybe we discuss it elsewhere than a GAA forum?
Because GAA is all that is discussed on here. Cop out.
Quote from: Stall the Bailer on February 16, 2017, 09:15:55 AM
Because GAA is all that is discussed on here. Cop out.
Maybe you're right. Or maybe it's because most people have learned that it's impossible to have a reasonable balanced discussion with a rabble of SFers.
Quote from: Tubberman on February 16, 2017, 09:38:38 AM
Quote from: Stall the Bailer on February 16, 2017, 09:15:55 AM
Because GAA is all that is discussed on here. Cop out.
Maybe you're right. Or maybe it's because most people have learned that it's impossible to have a reasonable balanced discussion with a rabble of SFers.
Why the first comment then? I have seen no Sinn Fein talk in this topic, as it has nothing to do with it.
It is all about the people in power talking out the man when they has missed the ball. Protect the organisations over the public.
Quote from: Tubberman on February 16, 2017, 09:38:38 AM
Quote from: Stall the Bailer on February 16, 2017, 09:15:55 AM
Because GAA is all that is discussed on here. Cop out.
Maybe you're right. Or maybe it's because most people have learned that it's impossible to have a reasonable balanced discussion with a rabble of SFers.
There's one of the major problems manifesting itself right there in front of our eyes, they are not of my tribe , therefore they deserve less than me.
The lads will see me right.
I'll be all right if the lads are all right.
I better vote for the lads.
Good f**king lad yourself.
It doesn't matter about the naked corruption, cronyism and overt brown envelope culture that leeches across every level of politics in Ireland.
It doesn't matter that a decent man has been slandered with the most disgusting of made up accusations just because he spoke up and tried to act in line with the oath he took to serve the country.
All that matters is giving the shinners a good thump .
Pathetic really, truly truly pathetic.
For what it's worth I'm of no particular political persuasion but would be left of centre, am not in any way a card carrying member of Sinn Fein.
You , Tubster , seeing as we are making sweeping genralisations do seem possibly of the blue shirted variety.
This week must be hard as Ye cling to the myth that Ye are a law and order party, there'll be no bonfires in Mayo after the next election aul schtock....
Quote from: Farrandeelin on February 15, 2017, 01:05:04 PM
The North's assembly was brought down because of less in my opinion. Yet this raggataggle government is still in place. I know nobody wants an election, but in any other country heads would be rolling. If FF had any balls we would be in election mode today. What a farcical shambles our main legislative chamber.
The problem Farr is that FF are shit scared that something might turn up that would implicate them also if and when the tribunal starts up. Once the tribunal gets down to work, there's no telling what might be discovered. Remember it was 2008 when Maurice McCabe raised concerns about senior gardaí quashing penalty points and FF were in office then. There will be a lot of squeaky bums on both sides of the Dail chamber when the craic starts and witnesses are called before the tribunal.
They had a chance to try and clean up the top ranks of the Gardai by bringing in an outside Commissioner (Canada, Australia or the like) when they got rid of Callinan.
Instead they went for another insider.
Seeing what they did to McCabe, one of their own, you can only imagine what they might be doing to other people.
Remember McBrearty?
Quote from: Lar Naparka on February 16, 2017, 10:54:33 AM
The problem Farr is that FF are shit scared that something might turn up that would implicate them also if and when the tribunal starts up. Once the tribunal gets down to work, there's no telling what might be discovered. Remember it was 2008 when Maurice McCabe raised concerns about senior gardaí quashing penalty points and FF were in office then. There will be a lot of squeaky bums on both sides of the Dail chamber when the craic starts and witnesses are called before the tribunal.
That is not the problem.
The mess up here is by FG only. This seems like an attempt to spread blame.
The problem is institutional abuse across the political and established Irish society.
FF are not responsible for this. This has feck all to do with the potential findings of a tribunal as there will be no one held responsible anyway. Least of all FF. FFs actions here are short sighted as are all their actions. FF are in a good place right now and this current set up is the only thing that interests them. Similar to SF and FG. SF must act as they are the only opposition. FF must not allow SF to act as they must be seen as opposition. FG must protect what they have as the other side is only a loss for them.
Nobody in elected office cares about the tribunal. It's those in the institutions such as the Gardaí and Tulsa that have to worry. Tohe only place there will be change is in these places, not in elected office.
I agree with a lot of this, but the political parties must take some blame for letting it happening and doing nothing about it.
Quote from: The Subbie on February 16, 2017, 10:30:59 AM
Quote from: Tubberman on February 16, 2017, 09:38:38 AM
Quote from: Stall the Bailer on February 16, 2017, 09:15:55 AM
Because GAA is all that is discussed on here. Cop out.
Maybe you're right. Or maybe it's because most people have learned that it's impossible to have a reasonable balanced discussion with a rabble of SFers.
There's one of the major problems manifesting itself right there in front of our eyes, they are not of my tribe , therefore they deserve less than me.
The lads will see me right.
I'll be all right if the lads are all right.
I better vote for the lads.
Good f**king lad yourself.
It doesn't matter about the naked corruption, cronyism and overt brown envelope culture that leeches across every level of politics in Ireland.
It doesn't matter that a decent man has been slandered with the most disgusting of made up accusations just because he spoke up and tried to act in line with the oath he took to serve the country.
All that matters is giving the shinners a good thump .
Pathetic really, truly truly pathetic.
For what it's worth I'm of no particular political persuasion but would be left of centre, am not in any way a card carrying member of Sinn Fein.
You , Tubster , seeing as we are making sweeping genralisations do seem possibly of the blue shirted variety.
This week must be hard as Ye cling to the myth that Ye are a law and order party, there'll be no bonfires in Mayo after the next election aul schtock....
Apart from Enda on top of the bonfire.
Quote from: The Subbie on February 16, 2017, 10:30:59 AM
Quote from: Tubberman on February 16, 2017, 09:38:38 AM
Quote from: Stall the Bailer on February 16, 2017, 09:15:55 AM
Because GAA is all that is discussed on here. Cop out.
Maybe you're right. Or maybe it's because most people have learned that it's impossible to have a reasonable balanced discussion with a rabble of SFers.
There's one of the major problems manifesting itself right there in front of our eyes, they are not of my tribe , therefore they deserve less than me.
The lads will see me right.
I'll be all right if the lads are all right.
I better vote for the lads.
Good f**king lad yourself.
It doesn't matter about the naked corruption, cronyism and overt brown envelope culture that leeches across every level of politics in Ireland.
It doesn't matter that a decent man has been slandered with the most disgusting of made up accusations just because he spoke up and tried to act in line with the oath he took to serve the country.
All that matters is giving the shinners a good thump .
Pathetic really, truly truly pathetic.
For what it's worth I'm of no particular political persuasion but would be left of centre, am not in any way a card carrying member of Sinn Fein.
You , Tubster , seeing as we are making sweeping genralisations do seem possibly of the blue shirted variety.
This week must be hard as Ye cling to the myth that Ye are a law and order party, there'll be no bonfires in Mayo after the next election aul schtock....
Thanks - that's the kind of shite I was talking about... why would anyone bother replying to muck like that.
All I said was that maybe people were discussing it elsewhere rather than on this GAA forum! How that prompted you to type that absolute drivel is beyond me.
This whole Garda/Tusla/McCabe/Commissioner/Fitzgerald/Kenny fiasco is all over every media outlet in the state for the past week - radio, television, newspapers etc
Nobody is putting their heads in the sand - it's a national disgrace! It will lead to the Taoiseach standing down as leader of FG, and will probably lead to the Commissioner having to stand down, and will possibly cause a General Election.
And that's before the work of the tribunal starts to look at the real issues!
The term 'political opportunism' should be removed from all public debate in any government.
I've heard it creeping into Dail reports over the past few days, the DUP use it all the time when put to task.
There's no opportunism here
Basically the main party in power didn't want to deal with this issue properly, for the past 5 years!
I don't know why anybody didn't believe Luke Ming Flanagan, Wallace, and Clare Daly when they raised this issue over 5 years ago???? They first raised the McCabe issues in the Dail.
Penalty points issue
whistleblowers
intimidation and bullying in the gardai
Yet now it is only when FF and Lab start nosing about the issue that it comes to a head.
It was Ming, Wallace, Daly and other Independents who have done the state a lot of good by continuously raising this issue
Quote from: Tubberman on February 16, 2017, 02:39:25 PM
Quote from: The Subbie on February 16, 2017, 10:30:59 AM
Quote from: Tubberman on February 16, 2017, 09:38:38 AM
Quote from: Stall the Bailer on February 16, 2017, 09:15:55 AM
Because GAA is all that is discussed on here. Cop out.
Maybe you're right. Or maybe it's because most people have learned that it's impossible to have a reasonable balanced discussion with a rabble of SFers.
There's one of the major problems manifesting itself right there in front of our eyes, they are not of my tribe , therefore they deserve less than me.
The lads will see me right.
I'll be all right if the lads are all right.
I better vote for the lads.
Good f**king lad yourself.
It doesn't matter about the naked corruption, cronyism and overt brown envelope culture that leeches across every level of politics in Ireland.
It doesn't matter that a decent man has been slandered with the most disgusting of made up accusations just because he spoke up and tried to act in line with the oath he took to serve the country.
All that matters is giving the shinners a good thump .
Pathetic really, truly truly pathetic.
For what it's worth I'm of no particular political persuasion but would be left of centre, am not in any way a card carrying member of Sinn Fein.
You , Tubster , seeing as we are making sweeping genralisations do seem possibly of the blue shirted variety.
This week must be hard as Ye cling to the myth that Ye are a law and order party, there'll be no bonfires in Mayo after the next election aul schtock....
Thanks - that's the kind of shite I was talking about... why would anyone bother replying to muck like that.
But you did and you forgot to put he boot into SF , Mick Wallace , Clare Daly & everyone else that didn't put their head in the sand, like you.
Like I said , good lad.
Quote from: The Subbie on February 16, 2017, 07:22:17 PM
Quote from: Tubberman on February 16, 2017, 02:39:25 PM
Quote from: The Subbie on February 16, 2017, 10:30:59 AM
Quote from: Tubberman on February 16, 2017, 09:38:38 AM
Quote from: Stall the Bailer on February 16, 2017, 09:15:55 AM
Because GAA is all that is discussed on here. Cop out.
Maybe you're right. Or maybe it's because most people have learned that it's impossible to have a reasonable balanced discussion with a rabble of SFers.
There's one of the major problems manifesting itself right there in front of our eyes, they are not of my tribe , therefore they deserve less than me.
The lads will see me right.
I'll be all right if the lads are all right.
I better vote for the lads.
Good f**king lad yourself.
It doesn't matter about the naked corruption, cronyism and overt brown envelope culture that leeches across every level of politics in Ireland.
It doesn't matter that a decent man has been slandered with the most disgusting of made up accusations just because he spoke up and tried to act in line with the oath he took to serve the country.
All that matters is giving the shinners a good thump .
Pathetic really, truly truly pathetic.
For what it's worth I'm of no particular political persuasion but would be left of centre, am not in any way a card carrying member of Sinn Fein.
You , Tubster , seeing as we are making sweeping genralisations do seem possibly of the blue shirted variety.
This week must be hard as Ye cling to the myth that Ye are a law and order party, there'll be no bonfires in Mayo after the next election aul schtock....
Thanks - that's the kind of shite I was talking about... why would anyone bother replying to muck like that.
But you did and you forgot to put he boot into SF , Mick Wallace , Clare Daly & everyone else that didn't put their head in the sand, like you.
Like I said , good lad.
f**k off, good lad.
The southern posters are posting more on the Brexit thread than here
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 16, 2017, 08:37:11 PM
The southern posters are posting more on the Brexit thread than here
So what? This is a local scandal. Brexit is f**king nuts
Have to say I find this whole thing awful strange - why is there such a lack of political interest in this? It's not like anyone in particular is benefitting from this? So why the reluctance to listen to the whistle blowers and treat them correctly?
Kenny is obviously going to go soon but without having an answer to the question above, it's hard to see how it will change a whole lot
Mick Wallace being held up as a champion of righteousness.
Next, the Healy-Raes are a great bunch of lads with the national interest at heart.
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 16, 2017, 09:51:09 PM
Have to say I find this whole thing awful strange - why is there such a lack of political interest in this? It's not like anyone in particular is benefitting from this? So why the reluctance to listen to the whistle blowers and treat them correctly?
Kenny is obviously going to go soon but without having an answer to the question above, it's hard to see how it will change a whole lot
Has the Garda top brass something on most of them?
Quote from: Tubberman on February 16, 2017, 07:25:52 PM
Quote from: The Subbie on February 16, 2017, 07:22:17 PM
Quote from: Tubberman on February 16, 2017, 02:39:25 PM
Quote from: The Subbie on February 16, 2017, 10:30:59 AM
Quote from: Tubberman on February 16, 2017, 09:38:38 AM
Quote from: Stall the Bailer link=topic=24336
/quote]
f**k off, good lad.
Pathetic,childlike and crass.
In a way it's like holding up a mirror to the FG junta.
Super job on enabling corruption, head on over to your fellow county men in Rossport and see if they agree with your cheerleading the Junta.
Good lad.
Quote from: seafoid on February 16, 2017, 08:51:20 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 16, 2017, 08:37:11 PM
The southern posters are posting more on the Brexit thread than here
So what? This is a local scandal. Brexit is f**king nuts
That's your total sum of posts on this?? Feck!! You're more interested in other counties affairs rather on what's going on in your own backyard!! Sums you up
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 16, 2017, 09:51:09 PM
Have to say I find this whole thing awful strange - why is there such a lack of political interest in this? It's not like anyone in particular is benefitting from this? So why the reluctance to listen to the whistle blowers and treat them correctly?
Kenny is obviously going to go soon but without having an answer to the question above, it's hard to see how it will change a whole lot
The fair administration of Justice is utterly fundamental to any democracy . The full truth must be found and wrongdoing punished .
Quote from: seafoid on February 16, 2017, 08:51:20 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 16, 2017, 08:37:11 PM
The southern posters are posting more on the Brexit thread than here
So what? This is a local scandal. Brexit is f**king nuts
Brexit will be proved a good thing for the Uk . Probably not for NI. The EU is crumbling . The Euro will be the rock on what it perishes .
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on February 16, 2017, 06:19:34 PM
There's no opportunism here
Basically the main party in power didn't want to deal with this issue properly, for the past 5 years!
I don't know why anybody didn't believe Luke Ming Flanagan, Wallace, and Clare Daly when they raised this issue over 5 years ago???? They first raised the McCabe issues in the Dail.
Penalty points issue
whistleblowers
intimidation and bullying in the gardai
Yet now it is only when FF and Lab start nosing about the issue that it comes to a head.
It was Ming, Wallace, Daly and other Independents who have done the state a lot of good by continuously raising this issue
My point exactly - when opposition raise an issue, the party under attack claim political opportunism and repeat it, as if it is a legitimate response.
Quote from: BarryBreensBandage on February 16, 2017, 10:20:00 PM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on February 16, 2017, 06:19:34 PM
There's no opportunism here
Basically the main party in power didn't want to deal with this issue properly, for the past 5 years!
I don't know why anybody didn't believe Luke Ming Flanagan, Wallace, and Clare Daly when they raised this issue over 5 years ago???? They first raised the McCabe issues in the Dail.
Penalty points issue
whistleblowers
intimidation and bullying in the gardai
Yet now it is only when FF and Lab start nosing about the issue that it comes to a head.
It was Ming, Wallace, Daly and other Independents who have done the state a lot of good by continuously raising this issue
My point exactly - when opposition raise an issue, the party under attack claim political opportunism and repeat it, as if it is a legitimate response.
That is politics . It's a dirty game. We have an adversarial system on these islands . It's awful to be honest .
Quote from: ashman on February 16, 2017, 10:17:44 PM
Quote from: seafoid on February 16, 2017, 08:51:20 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 16, 2017, 08:37:11 PM
The southern posters are posting more on the Brexit thread than here
So what? This is a local scandal. Brexit is f**king nuts
Brexit will be proved a good thing for the Uk . Probably not for NI. The EU is crumbling . The Euro will be the rock on what it perishes .
Sounds like a member of UKip
Quote from: Rossfan on February 16, 2017, 11:22:27 PM
Quote from: ashman on February 16, 2017, 10:17:44 PM
Quote from: seafoid on February 16, 2017, 08:51:20 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 16, 2017, 08:37:11 PM
The southern posters are posting more on the Brexit thread than here
So what? This is a local scandal. Brexit is f**king nuts
Brexit will be proved a good thing for the Uk . Probably not for NI. The EU is crumbling . The Euro will be the rock on what it perishes .
Sounds like a member of UKip
Jesus which is worse? UKIP FF or FG?? All liars
They're Politicians.
What do you expect FFS!!
You need to add all the 6 Cos lots and the British Tories, Lab, Lib Dems and the vile evil cnut in the White House.
Quote from: ashman on February 16, 2017, 10:45:03 PM
Quote from: BarryBreensBandage on February 16, 2017, 10:20:00 PM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on February 16, 2017, 06:19:34 PM
There's no opportunism here
Basically the main party in power didn't want to deal with this issue properly, for the past 5 years!
I don't know why anybody didn't believe Luke Ming Flanagan, Wallace, and Clare Daly when they raised this issue over 5 years ago???? They first raised the McCabe issues in the Dail.
Penalty points issue
whistleblowers
intimidation and bullying in the gardai
Yet now it is only when FF and Lab start nosing about the issue that it comes to a head.
It was Ming, Wallace, Daly and other Independents who have done the state a lot of good by continuously raising this issue
My point exactly - when opposition raise an issue, the party under attack claim political opportunism and repeat it, as if it is a legitimate response.
That is politics . It's a dirty game. We have an adversarial system on these islands . It's awful to be honest .
I know Ashman, but this Machiavellian thinking dates back to the 1500's - is it a human trait at this stage?
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 16, 2017, 08:37:11 PM
The southern posters are posting more on the Brexit thread than here
It's the same with anything relating to the north.
The difference is, a political scandal in the north is an opportunity to say 'the north is a basket case'. Any political scandal in the north is attributed to the entire people of the north and dismissed as 'typical of the basket case the north is'. DUP, SF, SDLP, PUP etc, regardless of how different they are they are clumped together as northerners.
While in the south, it's the individual or a particualar party or institution that are responsible and isolated. Regardless of how similar the parties in the south are, they are separate and seen as separate. There is no blame attributed to the wider community. The Church Scandal, the property scandal etc. The church and the bankers are to blame, not the Irish people.
Quote from: gallsman on February 16, 2017, 09:53:10 PM
Mick Wallace being held up as a champion of righteousness.
Next, the Healy-Raes are a great bunch of lads with the national interest at heart.
stick to your stuff above the border
Wallace might be a tax cheat, and a crappy boss of his companies
but he has been fairly consistent on this issue
As have his other independent colleagues
this whole issue would never have reached the recent climax without the Independents being in the Dail
Quote from: vallankumous on February 17, 2017, 08:38:57 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 16, 2017, 08:37:11 PM
The southern posters are posting more on the Brexit thread than here
It's the same with anything relating to the north.
The difference is, a political scandal in the north is an opportunity to say 'the north is a basket case'. Any political scandal in the north is attributed to the entire people of the north and dismissed as 'typical of the basket case the north is'. DUP, SF, SDLP, PUP etc, regardless of how different they are they are clumped together as northerners.
While in the south, it's the individual or a particualar party or institution that are responsible and isolated. Regardless of how similar the parties in the south are, they are separate and seen as separate. There is no blame attributed to the wider community. The Church Scandal, the property scandal etc. The church and the bankers are to blame, not the Irish people.
Much of a chip on your shoulder??
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on February 17, 2017, 09:29:05 AM
Quote from: gallsman on February 16, 2017, 09:53:10 PM
Mick Wallace being held up as a champion of righteousness.
Next, the Healy-Raes are a great bunch of lads with the national interest at heart.
stick to your stuff above the border
Wallace might be a tax cheat, and a crappy boss of his companies
but he has been fairly consistent on this issue
As have his other independent colleagues
this whole issue would never have reached the recent climax without the Independents being in the Dail
I wouldn't have much time for Wallace & Daly but they've been very good sticking with this. Fact is though it was getting nowhere until prime time reported on it which is a poor reflection on things.
Probably not that different to the RHI scandal which was widely known for quite a while but only became an issue after media coverage of it
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on February 17, 2017, 09:29:05 AM
Quote from: gallsman on February 16, 2017, 09:53:10 PM
Mick Wallace being held up as a champion of righteousness.
Next, the Healy-Raes are a great bunch of lads with the national interest at heart.
stick to your stuff above the border
Wallace might be a tax cheat, and a crappy boss of his companies
but he has been fairly consistent on this issue
As have his other independent colleagues
this whole issue would never have reached the recent climax without the Independents being in the Dail
He is consistent because he has an ulterior motive. Wallace is, always has been and will continue to be a crook.
As for "stick to your stuff above the border", I lived below the border for ten years and paid my personal taxes and VAT. I'll call that **** out on it if I want, thank you very much.
Agreed holding Wallace up as your moral guardian is a f**king joke. The Bertie/haughty legacy thrives yet.
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 17, 2017, 09:50:45 AM
Much of a chip on your shoulder??
Yes, all northerners have
Quote from: ashman on February 16, 2017, 10:15:01 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 16, 2017, 09:51:09 PM
Have to say I find this whole thing awful strange - why is there such a lack of political interest in this? It's not like anyone in particular is benefitting from this? So why the reluctance to listen to the whistle blowers and treat them correctly?
Kenny is obviously going to go soon but without having an answer to the question above, it's hard to see how it will change a whole lot
The fair administration of Justice is utterly fundamental to any democracy . The full truth must be found and wrongdoing punished .
Why bother having a tribunal at all when all that needs to be done is ask the many posters on social media what was going on. Dont worry about little concerns such as evidence and facts
Quote from: Avondhu star on February 17, 2017, 10:29:57 AM
Why bother having a tribunal at all when all that needs to be done is ask the many posters on social media what was going on. Dont worry about little concerns such as evidence and facts
Not merely is it not a topic worth discussing it seems it's a discussion that needs to be shut down.
Quote from: macdanger2 on February 17, 2017, 09:54:18 AM
I wouldn't have much time for Wallace & Daly but they've been very good sticking with this. Fact is though it was getting nowhere until prime time reported on it which is a poor reflection on things.
Probably not that different to the RHI scandal which was widely known for quite a while but only became an issue after media coverage of it
Nothing ever gets attention until there's a prime time special about it. Then normally forgotten about in 3-4 weeks when the next scandal takes hold.
Prime time is like a laundering facility for bad news.
Free state goldfish!
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on February 17, 2017, 09:29:05 AM
Wallace might be a tax cheat, and a crappy boss of his companies
but he has been fairly consistent on this issue
As have his other independent colleagues
A stopped clock is right twice a day.
At least the homeless problem has been taken off the TV and newspapers while the politicians can concentrate on sorting the police out
Quote from: Avondhu star on March 29, 2017, 10:36:51 AM
At least the homeless problem has been taken off the TV and newspapers while the politicians can concentrate on sorting the police out
That's some mess alright, over 1 Million fake breath tests reported that weren't actually carried out, and not mentioning the 10's of thousands of people incorrectly convicted of other road traffic offences..
Templemore with some dodgy accountancy practices it seems as well
Yer one is going to sit it out it seems as is the Irish way.
Were quotas in place and the numbers fudged to show these "KPI's" were hit every week/month/quarter? Everyone happy then...
Ya have to laugh at the eejits that post about the north brexit and anything from a different country (their view) are so absent here ;D ;D
Let's brush it under the carpet with the rest of the shit! Quality government
Nuala O'Loan is a woman of the highest integrity and her comments on the omnishambles in AGS should be taken seriously. I struggle to see how Noirin O'Sullivan can remain in office as she was in charge when this was happening; if she didn't know, she should have.
And to think the Current Government have jeopardized the economic recovery by breaking the wage agreements to placate this shower. This is as bad as it could be in terms of reputation and integrity and seems to have involved a lot of officers.
http://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2017/0402/864595-garda-oloan/
Quote from: Ball Hopper on March 30, 2017, 06:34:56 PM
Were quotas in place and the numbers fudged to show these "KPI's" were hit every week/month/quarter? Everyone happy then...
Any organisation can come up with quotas but that is useless unless independently verified.
O'Sullivan has retired, effective immediately. Full pension and benefits I expect.
Quote from: gallsman on September 10, 2017, 07:23:21 PM
O'Sullivan has retired, effective immediately. Full pension and benefits I expect.
No less! I would not be surprised if she had a certain date to reach to leave with a decent windfall!
Quote from: From the Bunker on September 10, 2017, 08:50:42 PM
Quote from: gallsman on September 10, 2017, 07:23:21 PM
O'Sullivan has retired, effective immediately. Full pension and benefits I expect.
No less! I would not be surprised if she had a certain date to reach to leave with a decent windfall!
it was reported that it was a date in November.
I wouldn't be surprised if she was offered a deal to go early
will there be an open competition for the job?
Surely her commissioner husband is the best option? ;) ;)
They're talking about bringing someone in from outside the state if they have to. I wonder if Sir Ronnie Flanagan wants to come out of retirement!
So what's to be done with the force now? Scrap it and start over like they did with the RUC?
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on September 11, 2017, 09:25:44 PM
So what's to be done with the force now? Scrap it and start over like they did with the RUC?
Sounds too sensible, the Gardaì will be given more power after this.
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on September 11, 2017, 09:25:44 PM
So what's to be done with the force now? Scrap it and start over like they did with the RUC?
would cost too much
It's noticeable that ALL the stories re the different scandals have mostly disappeared from the main stream media sites that has them plastered all over the place yesterday , there is most definitely the sound of the wagons being circled.
All the chat about the dept of finance raising the upper level pay scale to attract an overseas candidate will be just that , chat.
There will be no overseas commissioner, there will be a few token overseas candidates interviewed , there will be rumours of lots of interest from law enforcement professionals the world over BUT
when push comes to shove it will go to one of the Lads ( or lassies) that know the crack and will toe the line. Full stop.
There will be no reform. Anyone that thinks there will is deluded.
Even the upcoming "selection " process is laughable, the annointed one has most likely already been told "it's you"
I might be a cynical **** but we have been here before and with a rabid right winger like Leo the lovely in charge I very much doubt anything will be done different.
I see Judith Gillespie,ex RUC Deputy Chief Constable,is a hotly tipped contender! I recall her learning Irish under the LIOFA scheme up here a few years ago.Well if Northerners can be Freestate Presidents and managers of the Free State Football team....
There were no managers in the pre 1938 days of the Irish Free State SOCCER team ;)
And Mary McAleese was a displaced Rossie who has now returned to her roots.
Quote from: T Fearon on September 12, 2017, 10:33:36 AM
I see Judith Gillespie,ex RUC Deputy Chief Constable,is a hotly tipped contender! I recall her learning Irish under the LIOFA scheme up here a few years ago.Well if Northerners can be Freestate Presidents and managers of the Free State Football team....
Reports say the salary will go up to €300k. O'Sullivan was paid €180k
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on September 12, 2017, 08:14:38 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on September 11, 2017, 09:25:44 PM
So what's to be done with the force now? Scrap it and start over like they did with the RUC?
would cost too much
Might end up cheaper than a string of tribunals.
https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0914/904751-gra-breath-tests/
The guards are saying they didn't falsify nuttin'
Quote from: gallsman on September 15, 2017, 08:41:51 AM
https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0914/904751-gra-breath-tests/
The guards are saying they didn't falsify nuttin'
Comical Ali lives.
Quote from: Hardy on September 15, 2017, 09:16:51 AM
Quote from: gallsman on September 15, 2017, 08:41:51 AM
https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0914/904751-gra-breath-tests/
The guards are saying they didn't falsify nuttin'
Comical Ali lives.
What they are saying is that they were told to beef up the figures to make their senior management look good;
"He said that gardaí were under duress from middle and senior management within An Garda Síochána to elevate figures, with the threat being that if they did not, there would be implications for their future in the force."
hardly a culture you'd want in your policing service.
They ver just following ze orders!
definitely not an organisation I'd encourage young people into
I've a cousin in it and he hates the drinking culture and bullying in many stations
he got out of Dublin mainly due to that.
about to lose another minister due to this scandal
and possibly a government
hanging on by a thread!
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on September 15, 2017, 11:13:26 PM
definitely not an organisation I'd encourage young people into
I've a cousin in it and he hates the drinking culture and bullying in many stations
he got out of Dublin mainly due to that.
Did he go home to Mammy?
Quote from: Avondhu star on November 27, 2017, 11:25:24 PM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on September 15, 2017, 11:13:26 PM
definitely not an organisation I'd encourage young people into
I've a cousin in it and he hates the drinking culture and bullying in many stations
he got out of Dublin mainly due to that.
Did he go home to Mammy?
no. he just got the feck out of the station. not everyone likes skulling pints at 4am in a lock in, just cause your colleagues are doing it
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on November 28, 2017, 07:54:33 AM
Quote from: Avondhu star on November 27, 2017, 11:25:24 PM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on September 15, 2017, 11:13:26 PM
definitely not an organisation I'd encourage young people into
I've a cousin in it and he hates the drinking culture and bullying in many stations
he got out of Dublin mainly due to that.
Did he go home to Mammy?
no. he just got the feck out of the station. not everyone likes skulling pints at 4am in a lock in, just cause your colleagues are doing it
He sounds like great fun
Quote from: Avondhu star on November 28, 2017, 06:23:22 PM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on November 28, 2017, 07:54:33 AM
Quote from: Avondhu star on November 27, 2017, 11:25:24 PM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on September 15, 2017, 11:13:26 PM
definitely not an organisation I'd encourage young people into
I've a cousin in it and he hates the drinking culture and bullying in many stations
he got out of Dublin mainly due to that.
Did he go home to Mammy?
no. he just got the feck out of the station. not everyone likes skulling pints at 4am in a lock in, just cause your colleagues are doing it
He sounds like great fun
There it is again. The old "he doesn't drink himself stupid ergo he must be boring" trope.
Quote from: Avondhu star on November 28, 2017, 06:23:22 PM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on November 28, 2017, 07:54:33 AM
Quote from: Avondhu star on November 27, 2017, 11:25:24 PM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on September 15, 2017, 11:13:26 PM
definitely not an organisation I'd encourage young people into
I've a cousin in it and he hates the drinking culture and bullying in many stations
he got out of Dublin mainly due to that.
Did he go home to Mammy?
no. he just got the feck out of the station. not everyone likes skulling pints at 4am in a lock in, just cause your colleagues are doing it
He sounds like great fun
and you wonder why there are serious issues in the gardai
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on November 24, 2017, 08:32:23 PM
about to lose another minister due to this scandal
and possibly a government
It will be interesting to see how Syferus legitimises voting for a party who knowingly allowed a state campaign to falsely paint a whistle-blower as a paedo, particularly given his other views.
Then again, his morality seems to be built on a house of cards.
He will not doubt point to the many misdeeds of the Party you support -
Maybe even to another Garda McCabe!!
How many people have lost their jobs over McCabe? Fitzy, Shatter, Nóirín and...?
With only 14 pages in relation to this thread, its seems no one gives a f**k
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 29, 2017, 12:04:34 PM
With only 14 pages in relation to this thread, its seems no one gives a f**k
I think it has been discussed in other threads.
Whistleblower would not have been I would have thought for the search function.
With this Breathalizer thing, what are the fudged figures?
Are they making up the amount of tests they've done just or have they been charging people that weren't over the limit or what?
Quote from: MoChara on November 29, 2017, 12:46:44 PM
With this Breathalizer thing, what are the fudged figures?
Are they making up the amount of tests they've done just or have they been charging people that weren't over the limit or what?
My understanding is they fudged the figures of the amount found 'guilty'.
Quote from: Rossfan on November 29, 2017, 09:58:00 AM
He will not doubt point to the many misdeeds of the Party you support -
Maybe even to another Garda McCabe!!
He has done so in the past and to continue supporting FG while doing so exposes him as a hypocrite and someone who uses morality as theatre.
Quote from: Farrandeelin on November 29, 2017, 01:08:11 PM
Quote from: MoChara on November 29, 2017, 12:46:44 PM
With this Breathalizer thing, what are the fudged figures?
Are they making up the amount of tests they've done just or have they been charging people that weren't over the limit or what?
My understanding is they fudged the figures of the amount found 'guilty'.
So just a bare faced lie rather than a structured one.
Fine Gael up five points to 36% in polls conducted Monday and Tuesday. FF down four to 24%. Like I said at the beginning, the electorate really couldn't give too fûcks about the McCabe stuff at this stage and it's done little harm to the government's improving election prospects.
LV should have pushed Frances off the boat sooner, though.
I presume those figures might make FF shelve any notions of pulling the plug for another while.
Mind you they seem to be full steam ahead in candidate selection.
Half the FFrs in Roscommon seem to be lining up to dump poor oul Eugene.
Quote from: Rossfan on December 08, 2017, 08:35:00 PM
I presume those figures might make FF shelve any notions of pulling the plug for another while.
Mind you they seem to be full steam ahead in candidate selection.
Half the FFrs in Roscommon seem to be lining up to dump poor oul Eugene.
Murphy is a bit of an eejit but a harmless one. The likes of Connaughton and the Doherties are pure opportunistic animals that would sell the county down the river to please their bosses faster than you could say Frank Feighan.
Unless FG come up with a candidate better than Maura Hopkins the best result here is the same three lads being returned again.
Lord help Sligo hospital if Feighan gets elected in Sligo-Leitrim.
Truly remarkable the whistleblowers have been able to get some resemblance of the truth out into the public with all they had to endure.
New Garda Commissioner Drew Harris😳
Quote from: Insane Bolt on June 26, 2018, 09:21:08 PM
New Garda Commissioner Drew Harris😳
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92J_HUtRYpk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92J_HUtRYpk)
Putting an RUC man in charge of the Gardai. Hands across the divide.
These lads don't half make it hard to support them.
https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/loaded-submachine-gun-belonging-to-gardai-found-on-the-street-854385.html
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/disclosures-tribunal-report-published-maurice-mccabe-was-repulsively-denigrated-for-being-no-more-than-a-good-citizen-37408610.html
Disclosures Tribunal report published: Maurice McCabe 'was repulsively denigrated for being no more than a good citizen'
Martin Callinan and Supt Dave Taylor 'ran campaign' against whistleblower Sgt Maurice McCabe - report
Scheme 'somehow evolved out of his cheek-by-jowl working relationship' Supt Taylor enjoyed with Mr Callinan
'Sergeant Maurice McCabe, and who exemplified hard work in his own calling, was repulsively denigrated for being no more than a good citizen and police officer' - judge
Sgt McCabe 'had the interests of the people of Ireland uppermost in his mind' - judge
Judge concludes separate conversations between Mr Callinan and former PAC chairman John McGuinness and Comptroller & Auditor General Seamus McCarthy happened
Judge finds evidence of Fine Gael TD John Deasy and RTÉ journalist Philip Boucher-Hayes was also correct
Justice Minister thanks Judge Charleton for his investigation, highlights his remarks about McCabe 'doing the State considerable service'
October 11 2018 12:43 PM
The Disclosures Tribunal has found former Garda Commissioner Martin Callinan and former Garda press officer Supt Dave Taylor had a plan to spread a historic sexual abuse allegation about whistleblower Sgt Maurice McCabe.
In its third interim report, tribunal chairman Mr Justice Peter Charleton said the scheme "somehow evolved out of his cheek-by-jowl working relationship" Supt Taylor enjoyed with Mr Callinan.
Some of the players in the controversy include, from left, former Garda Commissioner Noirin O'Sullivan, her predecessor Martin Callinan, Superintendent David Taylor, Sergeant Maurice McCabe, former Tanaiste Frances Fitzgerald, former justice minister Alan Shatter, Children and Youth Affairs Minister Katherine Zappone3
3
Some of the players in the controversy include, from left, former Garda Commissioner Noirin O'Sullivan, her predecessor Martin Callinan, Superintendent David Taylor, Sergeant Maurice McCabe, former Tanaiste Frances Fitzgerald, former justice minister Alan Shatter, Children and Youth Affairs Minister Katherine Zappone
The judge found there was "no credible evidence" then-deputy commissioner Nóirín O'Sullivan played any hand, act or part in any campaign conducted by Mr Callinan and Supt Taylor.
The judge found; "Sergeant Maurice McCabe, and who exemplified hard work in his own calling, was repulsively denigrated for being no more than a good citizen and police officer."
He also said Sgt McCabe was "a genuine person who at all times has had the interests of the people of Ireland uppermost in his mind".
In findings in relation to Mr Callinan and Supt Taylor, the judge said: "Their plan was that there was to be much nodding and winking and references to a historic claim of sexual abuse while, at the same time, saying that the Director of Public Prosecutions had ruled that even if the central allegation did not have credibility issues, what was described did not amount to an offence of sexual assault or even an assault."
Supt Dave Taylor, then Garda Commissioner Martin Callinan and then deputy commissioner Nóirín O'Sullivan attend a meeting of the Public Accounts Committee in 2013. Photo: Damien Eagers3
3
Supt Dave Taylor, then Garda Commissioner Martin Callinan and then deputy commissioner Nóirín O'Sullivan attend a meeting of the Public Accounts Committee in 2013. Photo: Damien Eagers
Mr Justice Charleton also concluded that conversations between Mr Callinan and former Public Accounts Committee chairman John McGuinness took place as described by the Fianna Fáil TD.
Mr McGuinness testified that Mr Callinan told him following a meeting of the PAC in 2014 that Sgt McCabe "fiddles with kids".
In a later conversation in a hotel car park, the TD said Mr Callinan told him Sgt McCabe had sexually abused his family and an individual and that he was not to be trusted.
The judge also concluded that a conversation Mr Callinan had with the Comptroller & Auditor General Seamus McCarthy before a PAC meeting was as described by Mr McCarthy.
Mr McCarthy said Mr Callinan told him Sgt McCabe was not to be trusted, that he had questions to answer and that there were sexual offence allegations against him.
Mr Justice Charleton also found RTE journalist Philip Boucher-Hayes was telling the truth about an encounter in December 2013 he had with Mr Callinan and that the former commissioner and Supt Taylor were not telling the truth.
During this encounter, the journalist alleged Mr Callinan told him Sgt McCabe had "psychiatric issues" and had been involved in "the worst possible kind of things".
The judge found the evidence of Fine Gael TD John Deasy was also correct.
Mr Deasy told the tribunal Mr Callinan told him Sgt McCabe was "not to be believed or trusted with anything".
Mr Callinan had disputed the accounts given by the two TDs, Mr McCarthy and Mr Boucher-Hayes.
A protected disclosure from Supt Taylor formed the basis of much of what the tribunal investigated over the past year.
In it, Supt Taylor alleged he was instructed or directed by Mr Callinan and Ms O'Sullivan to negatively brief members of the media about Sgt McCabe.
In particular, he claimed he was told to brief that Sgt McCabe was motivated by malice and revenge, driven by agendas, and that his complaints had been investigated and found to be without substance.
The tribunal also investigated the allegation made by Supt Taylor that he was directed to draw journalists' attention to an allegation of child sexual assault, made by a woman known as Ms D, against Sgt McCabe, a matter which was fully investigated with the DPP concluding in 2007 that no offence was described.
It was alleged Supt Taylor told journalists this was the root cause of his agenda, namely revenge against the gardaí.
In his findings, Mr Justice Charleton said there was "no credible evidence" Ms O'Sullivan had any part in the campaign against Sgt McCabe.
He also said the truth was that Supt Taylor "completely understated his own involvement in a campaign of calumny" against Sgt McCabe.
The judge said Supt Taylor claimed, for the first time, while giving evidence to the tribunal that he was acting under orders.
"That was not the case. The tribunal is convinced that he pursued a scheme that somehow evolved out of his cheek-by-jowl working relationship with commissioner Callinan," he said.
"Supt David Taylor supplied a list of nine journalists to the tribunal whom he claimed were negatively briefed by him against Maurice McCabe.
"The tribunal is not convinced that any of those journalists were ever egged on in publishing negative stories about Maurice McCabe or even in thinking less of him.
"The two journalists not named among those nine, Debbie McCann and Eavan Murray, were, however, like Cathal McMahon, another journalist nominated by Supt David Taylor in the dying days of evidence before the tribunal, encouraged to seek out Ms D and to publish a negative story about Maurice McCabe in relation to her allegation."
The tribunal also examined whether Ms O'Sullivan influenced or attempted to influence broadcasts on RTÉ in May 2016 of the leaked findings of the O'Higgins Commission.
This commission examined concerns raised by the Sgt McCabe about policing in the Cavan/Monaghan district.
Mr Justice Charleton found that the reporter involved, RTÉ crime correspondent Paul Reynolds was not acting on the directions of anyone at Garda Headquarters.
"What Paul Reynolds did was honest.
"He was not under the directions of Garda Headquarters and he went about his job as an intelligent and independent reporter. In no sense was he a tool of the higher echelons of Garda Headquarters," the judge found.
Mr Justice Charleton said there could be no criticism of a reference in Mr Reynolds' report to an untruth told by Sgt McCabe to the O'Higgins Commission.
He also found that a reference in one of his terms of reference, to Sgt McCabe being branded irresponsible, was inaccurate.
In the report, Mr Justice Charleton said Sgt McCabe was "a genuine person who at all times has had the interests of the people of Ireland uppermost in his mind".
The judge said Sgt McCabe had "done the State considerable service" in bringing matters within the force to the attention of the wider public.
"He has done so not out of a desire to inflate his public profile, but out of a legitimate drive to ensure that the national police force serves the people through hard work and diligence," the judge said.
"He is an exemplar of that kind of attitude. Notwithstanding everything that happened to him, he remains an officer of exemplary character and has shown himself in giving evidence to the tribunal as being a person of admirable fortitude."
On another matter Denisheen Naughten has resigned as Minister for Communications etc etc.
Syferus wrote ""Murphy is a bit of an eejit but a harmless one. The likes of Connaughton and the Doherties are pure opportunistic animals that would sell the county down the river to please their bosses faster than you could say Frank Feighan.
Unless FG come up with a candidate better than Maura Hopkins the best result here is the same three lads being returned again.
Lord help Sligo hospital if Feighan gets elected in Sligo-Leitrim.""
Why Dont you run yourself you Gobshite
Are there any separate charges being brought against Callinan & Taylor? What they did to Maurice McCabe is absolutely shocking!
Quote from: GaillimhIarthair on October 12, 2018, 10:38:04 AM
Are there any separate charges being brought against Callinan & Taylor? What they did to Maurice McCabe is absolutely shocking!
There definitely should be, an absolute disgrace!
I'd imagine a civil case would be open and shut. Unfortunately Callinan and Taylor probably don't have much in the way of assets. I don't know if the law allows the seizure of a comfortable principal private residence in Castleknock in settlement of a civil finding of defamation.
Quote from: Dinny Breen on October 12, 2018, 10:41:21 AM
Quote from: GaillimhIarthair on October 12, 2018, 10:38:04 AM
Are there any separate charges being brought against Callinan & Taylor? What they did to Maurice McCabe is absolutely shocking!
There definitely should be, an absolute disgrace!
Jail time is required. Much of it.
Drew Harris might want to make a statement and go after the two of them in so far as he can
Strange that Wallace or Daly haven't been out to apologise to Fitzgerald for hounding her out of her job
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on October 12, 2018, 11:45:52 AM
Strange that Wallace or Daly haven't been out to apologise to Fitzgerald for hounding her out of her job
We're sorry we got caught?
Quote from: Hardy on October 12, 2018, 11:26:34 AM
I'd imagine a civil case would be open and shut. Unfortunately Callinan and Taylor probably don't have much in the way of assets. I don't know if the law allows the seizure of a comfortable principal private residence in Castleknock in settlement of a civil finding of defamation.
That'll be in the wife's name by now.
You got to wonder about the mentality of people in power in Ireland. It really is all about the cover up rather than facing up to live issues when you try to blacken a whistleblower to the extent of putting out false stories of him being a paedophile than sorting out the actual issues he's coming to you with.
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on October 12, 2018, 12:41:35 PM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on October 12, 2018, 11:45:52 AM
Strange that Wallace or Daly haven't been out to apologise to Fitzgerald for hounding her out of her job
We're sorry we got caught?
Hah?
Callinan was some bit of stuff...
Any sign of the 5 mobiles and 5 laptops Noirin and her cronies lost?
Maybe she brought them to NYC?
Disgraceful stuff. A Tony Greghory march to Callinans house and drive the f#cker out of the country. Massive respect to McCabe.
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on November 13, 2018, 07:54:08 AM
Callinan was some bit of stuff...
Any sign of the 5 mobiles and 5 laptops Noirin and her cronies lost?
Maybe she brought them to NYC?
This is small fry for Drew Harrison all the same. The RUC were inclined to lose guns.
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on November 13, 2018, 07:54:08 AM
Callinan was some bit of stuff...
Any sign of the 5 mobiles and 5 laptops Noirin and her cronies lost?
Maybe she brought them to NYC?
Curious - did you read the tribunal's findings on the missing phones or are you basing it on what politicians and media (who were being spun lies) said before the findings?
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on October 12, 2018, 03:37:23 PM
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on October 12, 2018, 12:41:35 PM
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on October 12, 2018, 11:45:52 AM
Strange that Wallace or Daly haven't been out to apologise to Fitzgerald for hounding her out of her job
We're sorry we got caught?
Hah?
An empty apology (that they'd never have made if they were not caught) means less than f**k all to me.
Quote from: weareros on November 13, 2018, 11:47:32 AM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on November 13, 2018, 07:54:08 AM
Callinan was some bit of stuff...
Any sign of the 5 mobiles and 5 laptops Noirin and her cronies lost?
Maybe she brought them to NYC?
Curious - did you read the tribunal's findings on the missing phones or are you basing it on what politicians and media (who were being spun lies) said before the findings?
Sorry, you are right.
It was 12 mobile phones.
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on November 13, 2018, 05:29:07 PM
Quote from: weareros on November 13, 2018, 11:47:32 AM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on November 13, 2018, 07:54:08 AM
Callinan was some bit of stuff...
Any sign of the 5 mobiles and 5 laptops Noirin and her cronies lost?
Maybe she brought them to NYC?
Curious - did you read the tribunal's findings on the missing phones or are you basing it on what politicians and media (who were being spun lies) said before the findings?
Sorry, you are right.
It was 12 mobile phones.
The tribunals findings on missing phones:
"Superintendent David Taylor spun a deceit that his boss,
Commissioner Martin Callinan, with whom he was on the best of terms for all his time in the press
office of Garda Headquarters, and Nóirín O'Sullivan, who he decided for his own bitter reasons
he didn't like and was not up to the job, were on the one hand composing, and on the other
approving, derogatory messages about Maurice McCabe. Hence, in his false reasoning, phones
were important. Hence, in his false reasoning phones went missing, Hence, in his false reasoning,
phones behaved mysteriously. Why? Because these phones had evidence implicating the highest
levels of the national police force in a vicious campaign against a defenceless sergeant who wanted
to see no more than an improvement in police standards.
And the reality? This tale was spun about missing phones, telecommunications interference by
Garda Headquarters, texts to politicians and journalists and a trail of evidence that never existed
in order, specifically and deliberately, to destroy the investigation by Chief Superintendent Clerkin
into the behaviour of Superintendent David Taylor. At risk through a perfectly legitimate and
honest investigation by a police officer of high intelligence and of truly distinguished record,
Superintendent Taylor chose to present a public lie to the people of Ireland. It was enthusiastically
taken up. Furthermore, it cast a pall of pretended deceit over the entire police force."
Quote from: weareros on November 13, 2018, 07:49:24 PM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on November 13, 2018, 05:29:07 PM
Quote from: weareros on November 13, 2018, 11:47:32 AM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on November 13, 2018, 07:54:08 AM
Callinan was some bit of stuff...
Any sign of the 5 mobiles and 5 laptops Noirin and her cronies lost?
Maybe she brought them to NYC?
Curious - did you read the tribunal's findings on the missing phones or are you basing it on what politicians and media (who were being spun lies) said before the findings?
Sorry, you are right.
It was 12 mobile phones.
The tribunals findings on missing phones:
"Superintendent David Taylor spun a deceit that his boss,
Commissioner Martin Callinan, with whom he was on the best of terms for all his time in the press
office of Garda Headquarters, and Nóirín O'Sullivan, who he decided for his own bitter reasons
he didn't like and was not up to the job, were on the one hand composing, and on the other
approving, derogatory messages about Maurice McCabe. Hence, in his false reasoning, phones
were important. Hence, in his false reasoning phones went missing, Hence, in his false reasoning,
phones behaved mysteriously. Why? Because these phones had evidence implicating the highest
levels of the national police force in a vicious campaign against a defenceless sergeant who wanted
to see no more than an improvement in police standards.
And the reality? This tale was spun about missing phones, telecommunications interference by
Garda Headquarters, texts to politicians and journalists and a trail of evidence that never existed
in order, specifically and deliberately, to destroy the investigation by Chief Superintendent Clerkin
into the behaviour of Superintendent David Taylor. At risk through a perfectly legitimate and
honest investigation by a police officer of high intelligence and of truly distinguished record,
Superintendent Taylor chose to present a public lie to the people of Ireland. It was enthusiastically
taken up. Furthermore, it cast a pall of pretended deceit over the entire police force."
https://amp.independent.ie/irish-news/commissioners-missing-phone-undermines-charleton-probe-35765152.html (https://amp.independent.ie/irish-news/commissioners-missing-phone-undermines-charleton-probe-35765152.html)
The tribunal investigating an alleged smear campaign against Garda whistleblower Sgt Maurice McCabe has been "completely undermined" following confirmation that a mobile phone belonging to Garda Commissioner Nóirín O'Sullivan has gone missing.
https://www.thesun.ie/news/2531922/twelve-out-of-15-mobile-phones-of-top-garda-officers-used-at-time-of-mccabe-row-are-missing-and-cannot-be-submitted-to-charleton-tribunal/amp/ (https://www.thesun.ie/news/2531922/twelve-out-of-15-mobile-phones-of-top-garda-officers-used-at-time-of-mccabe-row-are-missing-and-cannot-be-submitted-to-charleton-tribunal/amp/)
Twelve out of 15 mobile phones of top Garda officers used at time of McCabe row are missing and cannot be submitted to Charleton Tribunal
https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/incredible-that-mobile-phone-belonging-to-garda-commissioner-has-gone-missing-791600.html (https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/incredible-that-mobile-phone-belonging-to-garda-commissioner-has-gone-missing-791600.html)
Incredible' that mobile phone belonging to Garda Commissioner has gone missing
https://www.todayfm.com/News/12-Phones-Tribunal-Sought-Missing (https://www.todayfm.com/News/12-Phones-Tribunal-Sought-Missing)
Just 3 out of 15 phones requested are surrendered
Just three out of 15 garda mobile phones sought by the Disclosures Tribunal have been surrendered with the remaining 12 missing.
Easy to avoid being fingered when you bury the evidence
Literally
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on November 13, 2018, 09:05:25 PM
Quote from: weareros on November 13, 2018, 07:49:24 PM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on November 13, 2018, 05:29:07 PM
Quote from: weareros on November 13, 2018, 11:47:32 AM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on November 13, 2018, 07:54:08 AM
Callinan was some bit of stuff...
Any sign of the 5 mobiles and 5 laptops Noirin and her cronies lost?
Maybe she brought them to NYC?
Curious - did you read the tribunal's findings on the missing phones or are you basing it on what politicians and media (who were being spun lies) said before the findings?
Sorry, you are right.
It was 12 mobile phones.
The tribunals findings on missing phones:
"Superintendent David Taylor spun a deceit that his boss,
Commissioner Martin Callinan, with whom he was on the best of terms for all his time in the press
office of Garda Headquarters, and Nóirín O'Sullivan, who he decided for his own bitter reasons
he didn't like and was not up to the job, were on the one hand composing, and on the other
approving, derogatory messages about Maurice McCabe. Hence, in his false reasoning, phones
were important. Hence, in his false reasoning phones went missing, Hence, in his false reasoning,
phones behaved mysteriously. Why? Because these phones had evidence implicating the highest
levels of the national police force in a vicious campaign against a defenceless sergeant who wanted
to see no more than an improvement in police standards.
And the reality? This tale was spun about missing phones, telecommunications interference by
Garda Headquarters, texts to politicians and journalists and a trail of evidence that never existed
in order, specifically and deliberately, to destroy the investigation by Chief Superintendent Clerkin
into the behaviour of Superintendent David Taylor. At risk through a perfectly legitimate and
honest investigation by a police officer of high intelligence and of truly distinguished record,
Superintendent Taylor chose to present a public lie to the people of Ireland. It was enthusiastically
taken up. Furthermore, it cast a pall of pretended deceit over the entire police force."
https://amp.independent.ie/irish-news/commissioners-missing-phone-undermines-charleton-probe-35765152.html (https://amp.independent.ie/irish-news/commissioners-missing-phone-undermines-charleton-probe-35765152.html)
The tribunal investigating an alleged smear campaign against Garda whistleblower Sgt Maurice McCabe has been "completely undermined" following confirmation that a mobile phone belonging to Garda Commissioner Nóirín O'Sullivan has gone missing.
https://www.thesun.ie/news/2531922/twelve-out-of-15-mobile-phones-of-top-garda-officers-used-at-time-of-mccabe-row-are-missing-and-cannot-be-submitted-to-charleton-tribunal/amp/ (https://www.thesun.ie/news/2531922/twelve-out-of-15-mobile-phones-of-top-garda-officers-used-at-time-of-mccabe-row-are-missing-and-cannot-be-submitted-to-charleton-tribunal/amp/)
Twelve out of 15 mobile phones of top Garda officers used at time of McCabe row are missing and cannot be submitted to Charleton Tribunal
https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/incredible-that-mobile-phone-belonging-to-garda-commissioner-has-gone-missing-791600.html (https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/incredible-that-mobile-phone-belonging-to-garda-commissioner-has-gone-missing-791600.html)
Incredible' that mobile phone belonging to Garda Commissioner has gone missing
https://www.todayfm.com/News/12-Phones-Tribunal-Sought-Missing (https://www.todayfm.com/News/12-Phones-Tribunal-Sought-Missing)
Just 3 out of 15 phones requested are surrendered
Just three out of 15 garda mobile phones sought by the Disclosures Tribunal have been surrendered with the remaining 12 missing.
Easy to avoid being fingered when you bury the evidence
Literally
You have just posted all the stories the press was printing, and politicians were spewing about, not to mention all the people on message boards and social media, that Justice Carlton was addressing in the passage above.
Quote from: weareros on November 13, 2018, 10:03:21 PM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on November 13, 2018, 09:05:25 PM
Quote from: weareros on November 13, 2018, 07:49:24 PM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on November 13, 2018, 05:29:07 PM
Quote from: weareros on November 13, 2018, 11:47:32 AM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on November 13, 2018, 07:54:08 AM
Callinan was some bit of stuff...
Any sign of the 5 mobiles and 5 laptops Noirin and her cronies lost?
Maybe she brought them to NYC?
Curious - did you read the tribunal's findings on the missing phones or are you basing it on what politicians and media (who were being spun lies) said before the findings?
Sorry, you are right.
It was 12 mobile phones.
The tribunals findings on missing phones:
"Superintendent David Taylor spun a deceit that his boss,
Commissioner Martin Callinan, with whom he was on the best of terms for all his time in the press
office of Garda Headquarters, and Nóirín O'Sullivan, who he decided for his own bitter reasons
he didn't like and was not up to the job, were on the one hand composing, and on the other
approving, derogatory messages about Maurice McCabe. Hence, in his false reasoning, phones
were important. Hence, in his false reasoning phones went missing, Hence, in his false reasoning,
phones behaved mysteriously. Why? Because these phones had evidence implicating the highest
levels of the national police force in a vicious campaign against a defenceless sergeant who wanted
to see no more than an improvement in police standards.
And the reality? This tale was spun about missing phones, telecommunications interference by
Garda Headquarters, texts to politicians and journalists and a trail of evidence that never existed
in order, specifically and deliberately, to destroy the investigation by Chief Superintendent Clerkin
into the behaviour of Superintendent David Taylor. At risk through a perfectly legitimate and
honest investigation by a police officer of high intelligence and of truly distinguished record,
Superintendent Taylor chose to present a public lie to the people of Ireland. It was enthusiastically
taken up. Furthermore, it cast a pall of pretended deceit over the entire police force."
https://amp.independent.ie/irish-news/commissioners-missing-phone-undermines-charleton-probe-35765152.html (https://amp.independent.ie/irish-news/commissioners-missing-phone-undermines-charleton-probe-35765152.html)
The tribunal investigating an alleged smear campaign against Garda whistleblower Sgt Maurice McCabe has been "completely undermined" following confirmation that a mobile phone belonging to Garda Commissioner Nóirín O'Sullivan has gone missing.
https://www.thesun.ie/news/2531922/twelve-out-of-15-mobile-phones-of-top-garda-officers-used-at-time-of-mccabe-row-are-missing-and-cannot-be-submitted-to-charleton-tribunal/amp/ (https://www.thesun.ie/news/2531922/twelve-out-of-15-mobile-phones-of-top-garda-officers-used-at-time-of-mccabe-row-are-missing-and-cannot-be-submitted-to-charleton-tribunal/amp/)
Twelve out of 15 mobile phones of top Garda officers used at time of McCabe row are missing and cannot be submitted to Charleton Tribunal
https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/incredible-that-mobile-phone-belonging-to-garda-commissioner-has-gone-missing-791600.html (https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/incredible-that-mobile-phone-belonging-to-garda-commissioner-has-gone-missing-791600.html)
Incredible' that mobile phone belonging to Garda Commissioner has gone missing
https://www.todayfm.com/News/12-Phones-Tribunal-Sought-Missing (https://www.todayfm.com/News/12-Phones-Tribunal-Sought-Missing)
Just 3 out of 15 phones requested are surrendered
Just three out of 15 garda mobile phones sought by the Disclosures Tribunal have been surrendered with the remaining 12 missing.
Easy to avoid being fingered when you bury the evidence
Literally
You have just posted all the stories the press was printing, and politicians were spewing about, not to mention all the people on message boards and social media, that Justice Carlton was addressing in the passage above.
Burying evidence helps
You cannot rule on evidence not produced or found
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on November 13, 2018, 10:17:30 PM
Quote from: weareros on November 13, 2018, 10:03:21 PM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on November 13, 2018, 09:05:25 PM
Quote from: weareros on November 13, 2018, 07:49:24 PM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on November 13, 2018, 05:29:07 PM
Quote from: weareros on November 13, 2018, 11:47:32 AM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on November 13, 2018, 07:54:08 AM
Callinan was some bit of stuff...
Any sign of the 5 mobiles and 5 laptops Noirin and her cronies lost?
Maybe she brought them to NYC?
Curious - did you read the tribunal's findings on the missing phones or are you basing it on what politicians and media (who were being spun lies) said before the findings?
Sorry, you are right.
It was 12 mobile phones.
The tribunals findings on missing phones:
"Superintendent David Taylor spun a deceit that his boss,
Commissioner Martin Callinan, with whom he was on the best of terms for all his time in the press
office of Garda Headquarters, and Nóirín O'Sullivan, who he decided for his own bitter reasons
he didn't like and was not up to the job, were on the one hand composing, and on the other
approving, derogatory messages about Maurice McCabe. Hence, in his false reasoning, phones
were important. Hence, in his false reasoning phones went missing, Hence, in his false reasoning,
phones behaved mysteriously. Why? Because these phones had evidence implicating the highest
levels of the national police force in a vicious campaign against a defenceless sergeant who wanted
to see no more than an improvement in police standards.
And the reality? This tale was spun about missing phones, telecommunications interference by
Garda Headquarters, texts to politicians and journalists and a trail of evidence that never existed
in order, specifically and deliberately, to destroy the investigation by Chief Superintendent Clerkin
into the behaviour of Superintendent David Taylor. At risk through a perfectly legitimate and
honest investigation by a police officer of high intelligence and of truly distinguished record,
Superintendent Taylor chose to present a public lie to the people of Ireland. It was enthusiastically
taken up. Furthermore, it cast a pall of pretended deceit over the entire police force."
https://amp.independent.ie/irish-news/commissioners-missing-phone-undermines-charleton-probe-35765152.html (https://amp.independent.ie/irish-news/commissioners-missing-phone-undermines-charleton-probe-35765152.html)
The tribunal investigating an alleged smear campaign against Garda whistleblower Sgt Maurice McCabe has been "completely undermined" following confirmation that a mobile phone belonging to Garda Commissioner Nóirín O'Sullivan has gone missing.
https://www.thesun.ie/news/2531922/twelve-out-of-15-mobile-phones-of-top-garda-officers-used-at-time-of-mccabe-row-are-missing-and-cannot-be-submitted-to-charleton-tribunal/amp/ (https://www.thesun.ie/news/2531922/twelve-out-of-15-mobile-phones-of-top-garda-officers-used-at-time-of-mccabe-row-are-missing-and-cannot-be-submitted-to-charleton-tribunal/amp/)
Twelve out of 15 mobile phones of top Garda officers used at time of McCabe row are missing and cannot be submitted to Charleton Tribunal
https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/incredible-that-mobile-phone-belonging-to-garda-commissioner-has-gone-missing-791600.html (https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/incredible-that-mobile-phone-belonging-to-garda-commissioner-has-gone-missing-791600.html)
Incredible' that mobile phone belonging to Garda Commissioner has gone missing
https://www.todayfm.com/News/12-Phones-Tribunal-Sought-Missing (https://www.todayfm.com/News/12-Phones-Tribunal-Sought-Missing)
Just 3 out of 15 phones requested are surrendered
Just three out of 15 garda mobile phones sought by the Disclosures Tribunal have been surrendered with the remaining 12 missing.
Easy to avoid being fingered when you bury the evidence
Literally
You have just posted all the stories the press was printing, and politicians were spewing about, not to mention all the people on message boards and social media, that Justice Carlton was addressing in the passage above.
Burying evidence helps
You cannot rule on evidence not produced or found
No, you make the assumption that because someone no longer has an old work provided phone, they hid it with confidential data. That is what was fed to the press and they lapped it up by someone that was found guilty no less. Could you imagine if all the people whoever had an old workphone that was no longer available (as is typical when you get a new company phone) could be blamed of all and sundry in a public manner without any evidence? The Justice dismissed it and exonerated O'Sullivan. However, I see you are not accepting his findings and going with the view that was discredited.
the Tribunal made clear deliberations that testimony given by her claiming to be completely in the dark to the campaign orchestrated by Callinan was simply not credible.
That was the finding!
And the tribunal only covered her time as assistant commissioner, not when she was in charge of the gardai.
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on November 14, 2018, 12:06:34 AM
the Tribunal made clear deliberations that testimony given by her claiming to be completely in the dark to the campaign orchestrated by Callinan was simply not credible.
That was the finding!
And the tribunal only covered her time as assistant commissioner, not when she was in charge of the gardai.
Absolutely. Taylor hated O'Sullivan and told lies about her, but people saying that means O'Sullivan was innocent of all wrongdoing are talking absolute nonsense. She wasn't the ringleader but she knew exactly what was going on .
Also, some of the media reporting of Frances Fitzgerald is extraordinary. Saying that she wasn't involved in orchestrating any of the attacks on McCabe, therefore, she has been exonerated and should never had resigned. Utter nonsense!! Nobody ever accused of her of orchestrating attacks on McCabe!
She was forced to resign because she misled the Dail about being aware of the Gardai strategy of attacking McCabe's motives. She also misled Varadkar, who in turn misled the Dail. That's why she was forced out. And rightly so.
I see Gemma O'Doherty gurning about the RTE documentary on twitter:
https://twitter.com/gemmaod1/status/1062273160257650690 (https://twitter.com/gemmaod1/status/1062273160257650690)
In fairness she has a point. She met with McCabe and wrote about these things long ago. If RTE had cutting edge investigative team would have done a Prime Time exposé two years ago. Now they are sailing in under the umbrella of Charleton results. Compare it to the work of the likes of Peter Taylor back in the 80s.
The soft focus stuff makes up for any actual new information but at least it hits home to people the reality of what Maurice McCabe and his family experienced.
/Jim.
Respect also to McCabe wife who afforded him the time and head space to complete his mission, despite having a scatter of young kids.
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on November 14, 2018, 12:06:34 AM
the Tribunal made clear deliberations that testimony given by her claiming to be completely in the dark to the campaign orchestrated by Callinan was simply not credible.
That was the finding!
And the tribunal only covered her time as assistant commissioner, not when she was in charge of the gardai.
That was not "The Finding" and that is also not true. You should download the document and have a read. In particular I would refer you to Term C of the terms.
"To investigate what knowledge former Commissioner Callinan and/or Commissioner
O'Sullivan and/or other senior members of the Garda Síochána had concerning this
allegation of criminal misconduct made against Sergeant McCabe and whether they acted
upon same in a manner intended to discredit Sergeant McCabe."
http://opac.oireachtas.ie/AWData/Library3/Third_Interim_Report_121254.pdf
The story was a classic, tailor made and handed on a plate for a documentary maker but imo this was a poorly constructed documentary and not worthy of the story. There was way too much talk-over on important details while the camera focused on shots of water, lakes, bog water, shimmering water, waves, men in boats, water animals. If a person didn't know the story, even the outline of the story and the various characters, would they be able to follow the import of the story as it developed in that documentary?
There was pauses during the program which allowed viewers take board what they had just been told
No mention of the gardai targetting Claire Daly and Mick Wallace for drink driving after they raised these things in the Dail. And why reporters were waiting at the Garda station when Daly was falsely arrested. Who authorised that?
Luke ming Flanagan raised the issue of whistleblowers on numerous occasions and he was airbrushed from the whole story, despite him and the family being targeted by the gardai and then when he raised that in the dail Enda Kenny labelled him as looking like a drug dealer
Quote from: Hound on November 14, 2018, 07:29:58 AM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on November 14, 2018, 12:06:34 AM
the Tribunal made clear deliberations that testimony given by her claiming to be completely in the dark to the campaign orchestrated by Callinan was simply not credible.
That was the finding!
And the tribunal only covered her time as assistant commissioner, not when she was in charge of the gardai.
Absolutely. Taylor hated O'Sullivan and told lies about her, but people saying that means O'Sullivan was innocent of all wrongdoing are talking absolute nonsense. She wasn't the ringleader but she knew exactly what was going on .
Also, some of the media reporting of Frances Fitzgerald is extraordinary. Saying that she wasn't involved in orchestrating any of the attacks on McCabe, therefore, she has been exonerated and should never had resigned. Utter nonsense!! Nobody ever accused of her of orchestrating attacks on McCabe!
She was forced to resign because she misled the Dail about being aware of the Gardai strategy of attacking McCabe's motives. She also misled Varadkar, who in turn misled the Dail. That's why she was forced out. And rightly so.
revisionism always clouds the facts