Things that make you go What the F**k?

[nrico2006]

Never heard of the Rachel Kiely case until today.

Madness how lightly her killer got off, especially considering the numerous crimes he committed. Concurrent sentencing really is pointless.

I think he's inside again for a hammer attack. Sounds like a lovely fella.

Aye, never saw as many violent offence carried out consistently. How did he not get murder in the first instance? Joke.

The problem is proving the intent particularly for a youth.  It can be very difficult and rightly so given the consequences.  Thats not a comment on the specifics of this case just in general.

Is it not made more complicated than it should be? If you rape and strangle someone, then that has to be murder whether or not it was planned well in advance or not.

On the flip side, you could have someone convicted of the murder of Lyra Mckee when there is a strong argument that it was manslaughter as you would imagine she was not the target of the shooting.

[Milltown Row2]

Never heard of the Rachel Kiely case until today.

Madness how lightly her killer got off, especially considering the numerous crimes he committed. Concurrent sentencing really is pointless.

I think he's inside again for a hammer attack. Sounds like a lovely fella.

Aye, never saw as many violent offence carried out consistently. How did he not get murder in the first instance? Joke.

The problem is proving the intent particularly for a youth.  It can be very difficult and rightly so given the consequences.  Thats not a comment on the specifics of this case just in general.

Is it not made more complicated than it should be? If you rape and strangle someone, then that has to be murder whether or not it was planned well in advance or not.

On the flip side, you could have someone convicted of the murder of Lyra Mckee when there is a strong argument that it was manslaughter as you would imagine she was not the target of the shooting.

I'm firing a gun into a crowd of people, I intend to kill someone, whether I get my intended target or not

[David McKeown]

Never heard of the Rachel Kiely case until today.

Madness how lightly her killer got off, especially considering the numerous crimes he committed. Concurrent sentencing really is pointless.

I think he's inside again for a hammer attack. Sounds like a lovely fella.

Aye, never saw as many violent offence carried out consistently. How did he not get murder in the first instance? Joke.

The problem is proving the intent particularly for a youth.  It can be very difficult and rightly so given the consequences.  Thats not a comment on the specifics of this case just in general.

Is it not made more complicated than it should be? If you rape and strangle someone, then that has to be murder whether or not it was planned well in advance or not.

On the flip side, you could have someone convicted of the murder of Lyra Mckee when there is a strong argument that it was manslaughter as you would imagine she was not the target of the shooting.

To answer the first part.

The reason it's hard to prove murder is you have to prove an individual killed someone and that they intended to either kill them or cause them really serious harm. Proving someone's intent is inherently difficult and whilst pre meditation is one potential element of it there are other factors that go into it. Often manslaughter charges will be preferred if there is any wriggle room for the defendant to say I only intended to cause serious harm or simply harm but it will all depend on the facts of each case.

Strangely attempted murder is even harder to prove because you have to prove an intention to kill (not kill or cause really serious harm) so attempted murder convictions are rare.

On the second point and the point MR2 makes. The doctrine of transferred malice applies. At the risk of over simplifying it if a defendant fires into a crowd intending to kill or cause really serious harm to A but accidentally kills B they are guilty of B's murder and possibly attempted murder of A.

If however they fire into a crowd either recklessly or intending to make the crowd disperse or to scare A then they are guilty of manslaughter of B only.

[AustinPowers]

Chris Eubank on  the Tommy Tiernan show 

WT actual F was that  all about?

[Truthsayer]

Chris Eubank on  the Tommy Tiernan show 

WT actual F was that  all about?

Eubank was always quite strange although Tommy took it down that route.
The Watson performance was incredible how he picked himself off the floor, although tragic how it left Watson. That affected Eubank badly. That spirit stuff, Ali often said similar,  that it wasn't him in the ring  it was Allah. Only thing Ali was much more eloquent and funny and charismatic.

[LC]

Chris Eubank on  the Tommy Tiernan show 

WT actual F was that  all about?

Eubank was always quite strange although Tommy took it down that route.
The Watson performance was incredible how he picked himself off the floor, although tragic how it left Watson. That affected Eubank badly. That spirit stuff, Ali often said similar,  that it wasn't him in the ring  it was Allah. Only thing Ali was much more eloquent and funny and charismatic.

Did Watson's tragic circumstances not arise from his fight with Nigel Benn?

[Tony Baloney]

Chris Eubank on  the Tommy Tiernan show 

WT actual F was that  all about?

Eubank was always quite strange although Tommy took it down that route.
The Watson performance was incredible how he picked himself off the floor, although tragic how it left Watson. That affected Eubank badly. That spirit stuff, Ali often said similar,  that it wasn't him in the ring  it was Allah. Only thing Ali was much more eloquent and funny and charismatic.

Did Watson's tragic circumstances not arise from his fight with Nigel Benn?

Eubank uppercut in that rematch was the final blow. Eubank was on the canvas prior to that.

[Look-Up!]

Chris Eubank on  the Tommy Tiernan show 

WT actual F was that  all about?

Eubank was always quite strange although Tommy took it down that route.
The Watson performance was incredible how he picked himself off the floor, although tragic how it left Watson. That affected Eubank badly. That spirit stuff, Ali often said similar,  that it wasn't him in the ring  it was Allah. Only thing Ali was much more eloquent and funny and charismatic.

Did Watson's tragic circumstances not arise from his fight with Nigel Benn?

Eubank uppercut in that rematch was the final blow. Eubank was on the canvas prior to that.

Watson was against Eubank, McClennan was against Benn.

[gallsman]

I remember watching Benn-McClellan as a youngun because it was live on ITV. Even as an 8 year old I was able to understand the savagery of it. A horrifying night.

[Tony Baloney]

I remember watching Benn-McClellan as a youngun because it was live on ITV. Even as an 8 year old I was able to understand the savagery of it. A horrifying night.

Those fights involving Watson, Benn, Eubank, Collins were unreal. 

[Milltown Row2]

I remember watching Benn-McClellan as a youngun because it was live on ITV. Even as an 8 year old I was able to understand the savagery of it. A horrifying night.

Those fights involving Watson, Benn, Eubank, Collins were unreal. 

That middleweight division during that period was different to anything we ever had mccallum Nunn Jackson then previously you had Hagler, sugar Ray, Duran some fighters

[Newbridge Exile]

I remember watching Benn-McClellan as a youngun because it was live on ITV. Even as an 8 year old I was able to understand the savagery of it. A horrifying night.

Those fights involving Watson, Benn, Eubank, Collins were unreal. 

That middleweight division during that period was different to anything we ever had mccallum Nunn Jackson then previously you had Hagler, sugar Ray, Duran some fighters

There will never be another era like the Hearns/Hagler/Duran/Leonard one

[Look-Up!]

I remember watching Benn-McClellan as a youngun because it was live on ITV. Even as an 8 year old I was able to understand the savagery of it. A horrifying night.

McClennan was a class fighter. Didn't he put Benn on his arse first round? Fight looked over. But Benn was a tough cookie and clawed his way back into fight with sheer will. Or am I confusing another fight.

[Tony Baloney]

I remember watching Benn-McClellan as a youngun because it was live on ITV. Even as an 8 year old I was able to understand the savagery of it. A horrifying night.

McClennan was a class fighter. Didn't he put Benn on his arse first round? Fight looked over. But Benn was a tough cookie and clawed his way back into fight with sheer will. Or am I confusing another fight.

McClellan another one who was left permanently disabled. Is that middleweight / super-middle category the sweet-spot for fighters who are both big enough and fast enough to land large flurries of heavy hits?

[Dougal Maguire]

How does a cargo ship crash into a tanker in broad daylight