Sinn Fein? They have gone away, you know.

[Snapchap]

Sorry but this whole argument started because people like yourself objected to the notion that there was a different way for Northern Catholics/Nationalists to advance their cause other than a 28 year campaign of violence of which sectarian slaughter was an integral part
But there was, it would not have been instant, it would not have been easy, but had peace been the modus operandi, they would have achieved everything that's there now, and likely a lot quicker

It might not have been instant? You have repeatedly said "early 70's" and have even suggested by 1972. You keep saying there was another way but you steadfastly and conveniently refuse to outline the steps. I keep asking you how nationalists could have peacefully achieved by 1972 what the international pressure of the whole world couldn't achieve. "I don't know, they just could have" doesn't really cut it I'm afraid. Bear in mind too, that unionism refused to even share power with the electoral representatives of peaceful nationalism until the 1990's. So what on earth makes you think they'd have been happy to have done so any sooner, let alone in the early 1970's ffs?

They had essential righteousness and justice on their side - but that went out the window when the PIRA started bombing and shooting

So the IRA campaign meant the plight of nationalists in the six counties was no longer righteous? Interesting take, that one.

Claudy and Bloody Friday were exactly the wrong responses to Bloody Sunday

Didn't I already say they were unjustifiable? All justifiable military campaigns contain unjustifiable actions within it. Read about the Old IRA campaign sometime, why don't you?

Funny you mention the refugees because I bet anything you saw that the other day on the "censored" RTE website (RTE is the virus, remember) - reporting by Kevin Myers,

You'd make a poor gambler. I didn't see any report on the RTÉ website. I'm old enough to have lived through the events you heard about on a Section 31 censored media.

[sid waddell]

Your Germany/Iraq analogy is nonsensical. 

But how?

Your logic is: some really terrible stuff went on during the War Of Independence, therefore there can be no difference at all between the War of Independence and the 28 year PIRA campaign

Some really terrible stuff went on during World War II on the Allied side, therefore there can be no difference at all between World War II and the war in Iraq - or Vietnam, Afghanistan etc.

It's literally the exact same logic

It's a total destruction of critical thinking

And it's also a carte blanche for dissos right now

It's really not.

I notice you failed to quote or respond to the rest of my post.

What else is there to respond to?

This is your core claim, the reductio ad absurdum idea that any war can be justified by whataboutery

It absolutely does reduce everything to the claim the current dissos would make

[sid waddell]

"But in the Dail, only Sinn Fein are still glorifying a campaign of which sectarian murder was an integral part

Nobody else is

Therefore it's totally legitimate to call Sinn Fein glorifiers of sectarian murder, especially after comments like that of Stanley and David Cullinane"

This is a direct quote from you a couple of days back.

Can you please use your powers of critical thinking to show me how this does not apply to FG, given the recent glorification of Richard Mulcahy on their official twitter account?

Take it up with Fine Gael

I've never voted Fine Gael in me life and never will, I've no time for them

But I bet anything calling Richard Mulcahy a sectarian killer wouldn't get you thrown out of Fine Gael

I bet anything calling Slab Murphy such would get you thrown out of Sinn Fein

[sid waddell]

Sorry but this whole argument started because people like yourself objected to the notion that there was a different way for Northern Catholics/Nationalists to advance their cause other than a 28 year campaign of violence of which sectarian slaughter was an integral part
But there was, it would not have been instant, it would not have been easy, but had peace been the modus operandi, they would have achieved everything that's there now, and likely a lot quicker

It might not have been instant? You have repeatedly said "early 70's" and have even suggested by 1972. You keep saying there was another way but you steadfastly and conveniently refuse to outline the steps. I keep asking you how nationalists could have peacefully achieved by 1972 what the international pressure of the whole world couldn't achieve. "I don't know, they just could have" doesn't really cut it I'm afraid. Bear in mind too, that unionism refused to even share power with the electoral representatives of peaceful nationalism until the 1990's. So what on earth makes you think they'd have been happy to have done so any sooner, let alone in the early 1970's ffs?

They had essential righteousness and justice on their side - but that went out the window when the PIRA started bombing and shooting

So the IRA campaign meant the plight of nationalists in the six counties was no longer righteous? Interesting take, that one.

Claudy and Bloody Friday were exactly the wrong responses to Bloody Sunday

Didn't I already say they were unjustifiable? All justifiable military campaigns contain unjustifiable actions within it. Read about the Old IRA campaign sometime, why don't you?

Funny you mention the refugees because I bet anything you saw that the other day on the "censored" RTE website (RTE is the virus, remember) - reporting by Kevin Myers,

You'd make a poor gambler. I didn't see any report on the RTÉ website. I'm old enough to have lived through the events you heard about on a Section 31 censored media.

Step i) in a peaceful campaign: not bombing people, especially civilians, to death

That would have been a very good start

Step i) in the PIRA's campaign was bomb, shoot and maim

Step i) was repeated over and over and over until 1997

[Franko]

But you haven't dealt with the examples I gave nor have you answered the questions I put

The only real long term strategy available to Northern Catholics was peaceful mobilisation

The problem with your ideas is that you believe there was a click your fingers quick fix magic bullet available

There wasn't

Mobalisation? The biggest mobalisation strategy of Catholics in 1972 was to flee across the border for safety and a roof over their heads. In 1972 - the year you have ludicrously claimed Catholics could have turned things around by (and you accuse me of believing there was a quick fix solution available!) - there were 10,000 refugees living in refugee camps across the border. Maybe it hasn't dawned on you that staying at home to protest wasn't an option for thousands upon thousands of nationalists when they often didn't have a home to remain in. Of course, the actual reality of life for the nationalist people on the ground in the north is of no concern what-so-ever to you - hence your proposition that they continue to live under the boot and meekly protest about it. Your only concern is to take a sanctimonious, hypocritical, judgmental 'not-in-my-name' attitude to a conflict that you've been spoon-fed a Section 31 diet of lies about throughout the duration of, presumably because it helps you deal with the inner guilt you feel for your own slice of free state freedom being won for you by another armed campaign (that included acts of savage brutality and war crimes) which you feel you cannot condemn.

Peaceful struggle involves long years of mobilisation, struggle and endurance

Well sure why didn't the people of Ireland just engage in moral, peaceful protest in 1916 or 1918?

I asked you why Claudy and Bloody Friday were an appropriate response to Bloody Sunday,

I've stated umpteen times that the targeting of civilians in a conflict, no matter how justifiable the conflict, is utterly reprehensible. That's the difference in us. You can't seem to make that distinction. You believe that if someone believes the PIRA campaign was justifiable, that every action they carried out in it was justifiable. By that logic, anyone who believes the allies were justified in taking part in WW2 must then believe the carpet bombing Dresden was acceptable. Or that anyone who believes that the Old IRA campaign was justifiable must therefor approve of their disappearing 100-200 mostly innocent civilians was acceptable, especially, according to you, if they do so with great efficiency.

Sorry but this whole argument started because people like yourself objected to the notion that there was a different way for Northern Catholics/Nationalists to advance their cause other than a 28 year campaign of violence of which sectarian slaughter was an integral part

But there was, it would not have been instant, it would not have been easy, but had peace been the modus operandi, they would have achieved everything that's there now, and likely a lot quicker

They had essential righteousness and justice on their side - but that went out the window when the PIRA started bombing and shooting

Claudy and Bloody Friday were exactly the wrong responses to Bloody Sunday

Funny you mention the refugees because I bet anything you saw that the other day on the "censored" RTE website (RTE is the virus, remember) - reporting by Kevin Myers, incidentally

Again you're on with your reductio ad absurdum ideas about war in general

No it didn't.

This started because you and few of your fellow onlookers have decided that SF are not fit for government in the 26, due to their association with/involvement in the Provisional IRA campaign, because sectarian murder of civilians formed part of this campaign.

Posters are pointing out the simple truth, that if you apply this criteria the following MUST also be true

FG and FF are not fit for government in the 26, due to their association with/involvement in the Old IRA campaign, because sectarian murder of civilians formed part of this campaign.

[Angelo]

But I bet anything calling Richard Mulcahy a sectarian killer wouldn't get you thrown out of Fine Gael

I bet anything calling Slab Murphy such would get you thrown out of Sinn Fein

This is the level of idiocy you deal in.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/fine-gael-council-candidate-dylan-hutchinson-confronted-by-jennifer-carroll-macneill-over-derogatory-snapchat-post-zh5vmg9hv

Don't let facts get in the way of you exposing yourself as a dimwit.

[sid waddell]

Sorry but it was exactly how the argument started

[sid waddell]

But I bet anything calling Richard Mulcahy a sectarian killer wouldn't get you thrown out of Fine Gael

I bet anything calling Slab Murphy such would get you thrown out of Sinn Fein

This is the level of idiocy you deal in.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/fine-gael-council-candidate-dylan-hutchinson-confronted-by-jennifer-carroll-macneill-over-derogatory-snapchat-post-zh5vmg9hv

Don't let facts get in the way of you exposing yourself as a dimwit.

Ooh, personal abuse now

The Sinn Fein way

[RedHand88]

But I bet anything calling Richard Mulcahy a sectarian killer wouldn't get you thrown out of Fine Gael

I bet anything calling Slab Murphy such would get you thrown out of Sinn Fein

This is the level of idiocy you deal in.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/fine-gael-council-candidate-dylan-hutchinson-confronted-by-jennifer-carroll-macneill-over-derogatory-snapchat-post-zh5vmg9hv

Don't let facts get in the way of you exposing yourself as a dimwit.

Ooh, personal abuse now

The Sinn Fein way

Wise up, you called me a fascist I wasn't fully on board the Biden bandwagon and said the 88 in my username stood for Heil Hitler or some crap.. So take that dung somewhere else.

[sid waddell]

But I bet anything calling Richard Mulcahy a sectarian killer wouldn't get you thrown out of Fine Gael

I bet anything calling Slab Murphy such would get you thrown out of Sinn Fein

This is the level of idiocy you deal in.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/fine-gael-council-candidate-dylan-hutchinson-confronted-by-jennifer-carroll-macneill-over-derogatory-snapchat-post-zh5vmg9hv

Don't let facts get in the way of you exposing yourself as a dimwit.

Ooh, personal abuse now

The Sinn Fein way

Wise up, you called me a fascist I wasn't fully on board the Biden bandwagon and said the 88 in my username stood for Heil Hitler or some crap.. So take that dung somewhere else.

You support fascist policies in relation to the US

You laughed at children being caged and separated from their parents and your rhetoric was consistently pro-Trump

Therefore calling you a supporter of fascism is a statement of fact - not personal abuse

And a supporter of fascism is a fascist

Own it

[Franko]

"But in the Dail, only Sinn Fein are still glorifying a campaign of which sectarian murder was an integral part

Nobody else is

Therefore it's totally legitimate to call Sinn Fein glorifiers of sectarian murder, especially after comments like that of Stanley and David Cullinane"

This is a direct quote from you a couple of days back.

Can you please use your powers of critical thinking to show me how this does not apply to FG, given the recent glorification of Richard Mulcahy on their official twitter account?

Take it up with Fine Gael

I've never voted Fine Gael in me life and never will, I've no time for them

But I bet anything calling Richard Mulcahy a sectarian killer wouldn't get you thrown out of Fine Gael

I bet anything calling Slab Murphy such would get you thrown out of Sinn Fein

Interesting.

I wouldn't be sure, on either front.

Some evidence to support both assertions would be useful in this instance

[RedHand88]

But I bet anything calling Richard Mulcahy a sectarian killer wouldn't get you thrown out of Fine Gael

I bet anything calling Slab Murphy such would get you thrown out of Sinn Fein

This is the level of idiocy you deal in.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/fine-gael-council-candidate-dylan-hutchinson-confronted-by-jennifer-carroll-macneill-over-derogatory-snapchat-post-zh5vmg9hv

Don't let facts get in the way of you exposing yourself as a dimwit.

Ooh, personal abuse now

The Sinn Fein way

Wise up, you called me a fascist I wasn't fully on board the Biden bandwagon and said the 88 in my username stood for Heil Hitler or some crap.. So take that dung somewhere else.

You support fascist policies in relation to the US

You laughed at children being caged and separated from their parents and your rhetoric was consistently pro-Trump

Therefore calling you a supporter of fascism is a statement of fact - not personal abuse

And a supporter of fascism is a fascist

Own it

I never laughed at children in cages...what??
I said they were sanctioned by Obama, which is true.
Muting you now because you arent worth engaging with.

[sid waddell]

"But in the Dail, only Sinn Fein are still glorifying a campaign of which sectarian murder was an integral part

Nobody else is

Therefore it's totally legitimate to call Sinn Fein glorifiers of sectarian murder, especially after comments like that of Stanley and David Cullinane"

This is a direct quote from you a couple of days back.

Can you please use your powers of critical thinking to show me how this does not apply to FG, given the recent glorification of Richard Mulcahy on their official twitter account?

Take it up with Fine Gael

I've never voted Fine Gael in me life and never will, I've no time for them

But I bet anything calling Richard Mulcahy a sectarian killer wouldn't get you thrown out of Fine Gael

I bet anything calling Slab Murphy such would get you thrown out of Sinn Fein

Interesting.

I wouldn't be sure, on either front.

Some evidence to support both assertions would be useful in this instance

It comes back to the central question I asked last week

Can you be a member of Sinn Fein and believe that in broad terms, the PIRA campaign was wrong, and that the SDLP's approach was correct?

No, I don't think you can

You can certainly be a member of Fine Gael and believe the War of Independence was not justified

The central raison d'etre of Sinn Fein is the revisionism that the 28 year PIRA campaign was justified

In that respect it's a single issue party

Fine Gael isn't a single issue party

[Franko]

Sorry but it was exactly how the argument started

More revisionism

Unfortunately for you this time, there a written record.

The thing started with some typical moralising over a tweet from Brian Stanley regarding Kilmichael and Narrow Water

[Angelo]

But I bet anything calling Richard Mulcahy a sectarian killer wouldn't get you thrown out of Fine Gael

I bet anything calling Slab Murphy such would get you thrown out of Sinn Fein

This is the level of idiocy you deal in.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/fine-gael-council-candidate-dylan-hutchinson-confronted-by-jennifer-carroll-macneill-over-derogatory-snapchat-post-zh5vmg9hv

Don't let facts get in the way of you exposing yourself as a dimwit.

Ooh, personal abuse now

The Sinn Fein way

I'm just being frank.

You're the one engages in insults and projects his own shortcomings, infantile behaviour and inability to debate on others.